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Koivu at 3.25/year or Plekanec at 2.75/year

View Poll Results: Which second line centre would you take for 1 year?
Plekanec 84 34.43%
Koivu 160 65.57%
Voters: 244. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-26-2009, 10:11 PM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyF3ind View Post
Excuse me....I made a mistake...I meant Gainey called Koivu before the FA market opened up on July 1st (not the trade deadline during the season)....I suspect it was probably late Junish when Gainey made the call...but it was included in a number of articles covering Saku's departure from the Canadiens on multiple news websites.

And for those needing a link/quote:

http://www.montrealgazette.com/Sport...971/story.html




The call was made some time after the Habs got knocked out of the play-off race and before the FA market opened on July 1st.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyF3ind View Post
Yes we will and do know. Gainey called Koivu and thanked him for his contributions with the habs.

http://www.faceoff.com/hockey/teams/...tml?id=1771316



Read the bold if your still dumb enough to think that Koivu actually WANTED to leave the habs.
Thank you for the quotes. This proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was not a CHOICE between the two as the OP is suggesting. Lock this one up folks, discussion over.

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Old
07-26-2009, 10:28 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by All-Star View Post
My comments were intended to relate to his lack of endurance; the team's losses we simply a symptom of his fatigue. When the team's leader is exhausted, it definitely doesn't help the team's morale. I understand that he's had some ****** teams to work with along the way, but over his tenure, coaches have come and gone, players have come and gone, but the mid-season slump has remained... Every year, Koivu seems to run out of gas in January and February. He just doesn't have the endurance to play a full season at a high energy level.

Plekanec had a ****** season, but before that, he was on pace to become just as good as Koivu. I expect to see similar numbers between the two next season with Plekanec having played more games. Because the Habs have so many new guys, lineup stability will be extremely important...

Oh, and in case you're wondering, Koivu was my favorite Hab for a very long time. I've simply decided to be objective about Gainey's decision.
Correlation does equal causation. Basic principle of....anything.
Just because Koivu was there when the slump happened doesn't make it in anyway his fault.

Are you honestly making this argument? Leader gets tired. Therefore, team loses morale. Therefore, team loses. This will happen regardless of the coach, the players, or anything else. Perhaps it's not Koivu's fault. Again, just because he was there means nothing! People really need to learn how to make logical arguments here.

Also, think a few years back. Koivu was in better shape then and the team was still going through midseason slumps. In case you forgot, Koivu wasn't as slow and he had better endurance back then. Did you forget that? It might make more sense to say that the Habs have always had a midseason slump because they simply were a mediocre/average team. They get out of the gate strong because everyone is excited for the start of the season but the team gets tired and then starts losing to better teams who have found their groove.

Did you know the Rangers have had midseason slumps often as well? Lundqvist has been around and hasn't elevated his game during this period. Do you blame the Rangers being mediocre on Lundqvist? The more plausible explanation is that the Rangers often have been mediocre. The travel schedule that is a consequence of an overbooked MSG also plays into it.

It's just ridiculous to make the argument that Koivu is at fault for midseason slumps! Come on! Is that really a sound logical argument?

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07-27-2009, 02:17 AM
  #78
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youre asking the wrong question, its KOIVU OR GOMEZ.....

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07-27-2009, 02:46 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by DaHabMan View Post
youre asking the wrong question, its KOIVU OR GOMEZ.....
Undoubtedly the answer would be Gomez.

He's head-and-shoulders above Koivu in terms of skill/talent and he is a vet, in his prime and he has won a cup.

Sure he's overpayed by 1-2.5 mil but remember: we had Danouillon at 3.6 for FOUR YEARS.

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07-27-2009, 03:00 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by MaxLapierre View Post
Undoubtedly the answer would be Gomez.

He's head-and-shoulders above Koivu in terms of skill/talent and he is a vet, in his prime and he has won a cup.

Sure he's overpayed by 1-2.5 mil but remember: we had Danouillon at 3.6 for FOUR YEARS.
That's so true. Not to mention we had a couple of buyouts of about 1.6 mill the last couple of years. If this guy can man a 1st line, I'm fine with his salary since there's no one in our system in the immediate future and you'd have to overpay for one in the market just the same.

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07-27-2009, 04:22 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Asterix View Post
Thank you for the quotes. This proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was not a CHOICE between the two as the OP is suggesting. Lock this one up folks, discussion over.
No problem, but I don't necessarily think your assessment is accurate. All the quotes/links prove is that Gainey CHOSE to not bring Koivu back, period. As opposed to keeping all the doors open, Gainey called Koivu to tell him (probably well before the Gomez trade) that he would receive no contract from the Habs. That being said, he could have chose to sign Koivu and deal Plecks before OR after the Gomez trade.

This was a clear decision by Gainey. We can only speculate as to why Gainey decided to completely close the door on Koivu: he was a "cancer", didn't demonstrate the requisite leadership, didn't speak French, etc. I have my own opinion on the matter as I believe Gainey cut Koivu for non-Hockey reasons, but rather for the sake of making a "major" change. Gainey has been repeatedly critiqued the last few years for not being bold enough. Cutting Koivu who was also the source of lots of criticism would get critics off Gainey's back (and Koivu's as well) and would enable Gainey to hold off the critics who would be forced to wait to see how the new team does before jumpin back on Gainey. IMO, Koivu represented a symbolic scapegoat (so to speak) for Gainey. As long as he didn't bring back the face of the franchise for the last 10 years, then everyone would have to agree he made "bold" and "major" changes. After more than 5 years with Gainey at the helm (and a failed 5 year plan), a dismal centennial season, and new owners entering the fray, Gainey's job was on the line, and he did what he felt necessary to keep his job.

What Gainey could have done, (and I believed tried to do) was to first deal plecks in a package for a legit no. 1 center (ie. Lecavalier at the draft), then sign Koivu as the 2nd line center. Such a trade would have represented the "bold" and "major" change requirements so keeping Koivu wouldn't be a problem. When this failed I believe thats when Gainey resigned himself to not re-sign Koivu.

Gainey could also have made the Gomez trade, and then made another deal to rid ourselves of Plecks (ie. for picks/prospects, D-Man, etc.), and then re-signed Koivu. I however am unaware of the potential difficulties of trying to trade a player going through arbitration. Maybe its impossible as well as this scenario, all I know is that before Koivu signed in Anaheim I was hoping that Gainey would come to his senses and deal plecks to make room for Koivu. But it never happened.

In summation while it is true Gainey never made a direct choice between Koivu or Plecks, his actions were clear conscious decisions that will see Plecks instead of Koivu as our no. 2 center, and by virtue of that the OP is easily justified in posing the question.

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Old
07-27-2009, 04:26 AM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHabMan View Post
KOIVU OR GOMEZ??.....you're asking the wrong question.
Fixed.

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Old
07-27-2009, 05:18 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Stradale View Post
Koivu going downhill is still better than Plekanec for the Habs as a second center.

Koivu is a warrior... especially in the playoff. Plekanec became a girl in playoff 07-08 and kept playing like one during the whole 08-09 season and playoff.

Plekanec had the chance to relay Koivu as our 2nd center this season after having a terrific year with Kovy in 07-08 but Koivu AGAIN, was still our best center. I thought Koivu was on a decline and Plekanec was younger and has potential. Thats ********. Habs is a better team with Saku as our 2nd line center than Plekanec.
at this point, what can be expected from koivu is more or less 50 pts seasons...


Plekanec shi*** season ? 40 pts...

based on this, an average season from Plekanec would be what, 50 ? 55 ? 60 pts maybe ?


so, to say that right now Koivu's the better player, well...

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Old
07-27-2009, 06:28 AM
  #84
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wr needed a new captain

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Old
07-27-2009, 06:39 AM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHabMan View Post
youre asking the wrong question, its KOIVU OR GOMEZ.....
If we believe everything that was said, we were able to build a new team 'cause we got Gomez. No Gomez, no Cammy, no Gionta, nobody. So if you wanted some important changes, Gomez it is. If you were happy with the old team, Koivu for sure.

But even Gainey wasn't happy with the team he built.....So why would you?

My answer is simply neither. It was time to move on as far as Koivu is concerned, and I was never a fan of Plekanec's game.

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07-27-2009, 06:44 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by R8 View Post
Correlation does equal causation. Basic principle of....anything.
I'm using the team's loses to highlight Koivu's lack of endurance. I must not be getting through...

whatever...

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Old
07-27-2009, 08:01 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
for one year? koivu easy, but going forward i guess pleks was the choice we had to take.

Koivu should have retired a hab and everyone knows it.
In a non-cap era we'd still have him and imo he might still retire a hab in some deadline deal in his last season.

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07-27-2009, 08:19 AM
  #88
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Koivu for 1 year that's for sure,especially also on the 2nd line,would have been even more effective.Anyways we gotta move on now...

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07-27-2009, 08:21 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by DaHabMan View Post
youre asking the wrong question, its KOIVU OR GOMEZ.....
If I could have Koivu, Higgins, McDonagh, and still a couple million cap space left over, I would easily take the Koivu package. Still not even close. Heck, even without Koivu in there I'd take the Koivu package.

Obviously Koivu wanted to come back, and I'm reasonably confident (in a clueless blustering hockey fan way) that he would have taken a big discount to stay. Bigger even than he ended up taking in Anaheim. But Gainey very consciously decided to go in a different direction, either on his own initiative or as part of a directive from new ownership perhaps, we can't really guess, except it does not appear as if it was communicated to us or Koivu until the late June timeframe. During which time we know Gainey was trying very hard to get his big #1 center. Which he failed at. In the wake of that failure, things got a bit hectic. The trade for Gomez was made in some desperation. Other players and contracts were flying fast and furious very shortly thereafter in the FA frenzy.

It bothers me though that after all the dust had settled and it became apparent that we could still have Koivu back (albeit likely at the cost of Plekanec), Gainey still didn't seem willing to consider it. To me, that's just consciously weakening the team. Koivu is better than Plekanec. There is no real debating that, IMHO. Past that, I think Koivu at his best is better than Gomez too. Granted, Gomez probably has a stronger constitution and can handle more icetime more consistently over the 82-game grind. But with a Gomez-Koivu 1-2 punch the team would be looking pretty good up the middle, regardless of which one wore the meaningless mantle of "#1" at any given period of streaking or slumping.

Instead, we're back to praying that Plekanec rebounds and is able to find some chemistry with his wingers. I like Plekanec and think it could happen. But he's not really great at using his wingers in general. Whereas Koivu absolutely excels at making the guys he plays with better. If you put Koivu with Kost or Latendresse, I wouldn't have much doubt about their ability to contribute. With Plekanec... guessing, finger-crossing game. And you're only looking at 1-year scenarios in either case now, so there is no added value in Plekanec's youthfulness. It's just a bad hockey decision.

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07-27-2009, 08:32 AM
  #90
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To be honest, I'd prefer a healthy Lang over either guy for a year. Unfortunately, Lang's injury and age seems to have scared any prospective buyers.

In terms of the poll, I'd rather have Koivu.

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07-27-2009, 08:44 AM
  #91
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I'll take Plekanec...Koivu has better intangibles, but Plekanec is a better player.

The Habs have made several other moves to bring in some of the intangibles that Koivu brought, so that's not what i'm looking for in Plekanec.

So again, Plekanec

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07-27-2009, 08:46 AM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
If I could have Koivu, Higgins, McDonagh, and still a couple million cap space left over, I would easily take the Koivu package. Still not even close. Heck, even without Koivu in there I'd take the Koivu package.

Obviously Koivu wanted to come back, and I'm reasonably confident (in a clueless blustering hockey fan way) that he would have taken a big discount to stay. Bigger even than he ended up taking in Anaheim. But Gainey very consciously decided to go in a different direction, either on his own initiative or as part of a directive from new ownership perhaps, we can't really guess, except it does not appear as if it was communicated to us or Koivu until the late June timeframe. During which time we know Gainey was trying very hard to get his big #1 center. Which he failed at. In the wake of that failure, things got a bit hectic. The trade for Gomez was made in some desperation. Other players and contracts were flying fast and furious very shortly thereafter in the FA frenzy.

It bothers me though that after all the dust had settled and it became apparent that we could still have Koivu back (albeit likely at the cost of Plekanec), Gainey still didn't seem willing to consider it. To me, that's just consciously weakening the team. Koivu is better than Plekanec. There is no real debating that, IMHO. Past that, I think Koivu at his best is better than Gomez too. Granted, Gomez probably has a stronger constitution and can handle more icetime more consistently over the 82-game grind. But with a Gomez-Koivu 1-2 punch the team would be looking pretty good up the middle, regardless of which one wore the meaningless mantle of "#1" at any given period of streaking or slumping.
I can debate that...nothing against Koivu, but I think Plekanec, and especially Gomez are better hockey players than Koivu at this point in each player's career. I also don't agree that Koivu took a discount to play in Anaheim, he's getting paid what he should be making. I also don't think that IF he would of re-signed in Montreal, it would of been at a discount. He'd make more money in Montreal than he would anywhere else in the NHL

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07-27-2009, 08:51 AM
  #93
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At this stage of their respective carreers, Plekanec is superior to Koivu - he is faster, has a better shot and is a better passer, and he is better defensively... younger and cheaper too.

Koivu would had not signed a one year contract at 3,5 in Montreal. No way !

He thought he was still a number one center in Montreal. In Anaheim, behind a superstar like Getzlaf and a winger like his buddy Selanne, he will do good. But Plekanec in Montreal will do better.

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07-27-2009, 08:56 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
And you're only looking at 1-year scenarios in either case now, so there is no added value in Plekanec's youthfulness. It's just a bad hockey decision.
Not to mention trading Plecks would undoubtedly yield some kind of return, which could ad value in the short term or compensate for the loss of pleks youthfulness in the long term.

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07-27-2009, 09:04 AM
  #95
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If we had not signed Gionta, a throw away third liner and Gill we could have signed both Koivu and Kovalev who both would play on the second line while Andrei Kositsyn would move up to play with Cammy and Gomez. That would leave MaxPac or Latendresse to play with Koivu and Kovalev with Plekanec as a third line back up centre.

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07-27-2009, 09:04 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by CanadienErrant View Post
At this stage of their respective carreers, Plekanec is superior to Koivu - he is faster, has a better shot and is a better passer, and he is better defensively... younger and cheaper too.
Better passer? Not by a long shot.

Better defensively? Maybe, but thats a big maybe.

You guys also quickly forget a very important statistic in this equation: Face Off percentages

O8/09

1 Saku Koivu 54.1
2 Maxim Lapierre 53.2
3 Tomas Plekanec 50.6
4 Glen Metropolit 49.2
5 Robert Lang 48.8

07/08

1 Saku Koivu 52.3
2 Bryan Smolinski 51.8
3 Tomas Plekanec 49.4

06/07


1 Saku Koivu 54.9
2 Radek Bonk 49.8
3 Tomas Plekanec 48.3

Koivu has been stellar in face-offs while Plecks struggles to even break even.


Last edited by HockeyF3ind: 07-27-2009 at 09:12 AM.
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07-27-2009, 09:13 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
at this point, what can be expected from koivu is more or less 50 pts seasons...


Plekanec shi*** season ? 40 pts...

based on this, an average season from Plekanec would be what, 50 ? 55 ? 60 pts maybe ?


so, to say that right now Koivu's the better player, well...
Koivu admitted that he had a minor ankle injury last season which could've easily cost out 10+ points. The year before that he played #2 line center as Plekanec line and the team was on fire and he was the best or second best #2 line center that season.

So to the original question I think Koivu could've been a better fit for the #2 center role and especially when thinking about playoffs.

But I think it is better for both parties this way, more relieving at least even though Koivu ending his career in habs would've been a just thing. He's glad in Anaheim now and can concentrate purely just on hockey.

I just wish Cammy was in habs while Saku was still there! =P

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07-27-2009, 09:24 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Bourne View Post
If we had not signed Gionta, a throw away third liner and Gill we could have signed both Koivu and Kovalev who both would play on the second line while Andrei Kositsyn would move up to play with Cammy and Gomez. That would leave MaxPac or Latendresse to play with Koivu and Kovalev with Plekanec as a third line back up centre.
Hmm......just imagine

Cammy - Gomez - A Kost
Lats - Koivu - Kovalev
Pacioretty - Plecks - S Kost
Chipchura - Lapierre - Stewart

Markov - Mara
Hamrlik - Spacek
Gorges - O'byrne/Weber

Instead of

Cammy - Gomez - Gionta
Lats - Plecks - A Kost
Moen - Lapierre - S Kost
Pacioretty - Chipchura - Stewart

Markov - Mara
Hamrlik - Spacek
Gill - Gorges

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Old
07-27-2009, 09:29 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by All-Star View Post
I'm using the team's loses to highlight Koivu's lack of endurance. I must not be getting through...

whatever...
No. What you did in your post was essentially blame Koivu for the losses by saying he lowered morale. In essence, you're linking him to midseason slumps directly. That is completely wrong.

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07-27-2009, 09:34 AM
  #100
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No. What you did in your post was essentially blame Koivu for the losses by saying he lowered morale. In essence, you're linking him to midseason slumps directly. That is completely wrong.
When the team wins its a combination of things, no one can take complete credit...but when the team loses its obviously the captains fault, all on his own.

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