HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Koivu at 3.25/year or Plekanec at 2.75/year

View Poll Results: Which second line centre would you take for 1 year?
Plekanec 84 34.43%
Koivu 160 65.57%
Voters: 244. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-27-2009, 09:38 AM
  #101
zzoo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Country: Vietnam
Posts: 2,451
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyF3ind View Post
Hmm......just imagine

Cammy - Gomez - A Kost
Lats - Koivu - Kovalev
Pacioretty - Plecks - S Kost
Chipchura - Lapierre - Stewart

Markov - Mara
Hamrlik - Spacek
Gorges - O'byrne/Weber

Instead of

Cammy - Gomez - Gionta
Lats - Plecks - A Kost
Moen - Lapierre - S Kost
Pacioretty - Chipchura - Stewart

Markov - Mara
Hamrlik - Spacek
Gill - Gorges
I like this very much.
But I think Gainey should have a very valid reason so I didn't even bother to offer a contract to Koivu.

zzoo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-27-2009, 09:39 AM
  #102
loudi94
Master of my Domain
 
loudi94's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Alberta
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,728
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyF3ind View Post
Hmm......just imagine

Cammy - Gomez - A Kost
Lats - Koivu - Kovalev
Pacioretty - Plecks - S Kost
Chipchura - Lapierre - Stewart

Markov - Mara
Hamrlik - Spacek
Gorges - O'byrne/Weber

Instead of

Cammy - Gomez - Gionta
Lats - Plecks - A Kost
Moen - Lapierre - S Kost
Pacioretty - Chipchura - Stewart

Markov - Mara
Hamrlik - Spacek
Gill - Gorges
I lament the loss of Koivu, but sometimes you gotta turn the page. It's not like we're giving away Patrick Roy for spare parts. We acquired at least equal skill, proven winners and heart. The only part that concerns me is the 2nd line winger. I think Cammy ends up with Pleks and A Kost moves up.

loudi94 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-27-2009, 09:56 AM
  #103
CGG
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: 416
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,445
vCash: 500
The correct answer is Plekanec, and I am and always have been a huge Koivu fan.

The question is a bit flawed since we don't know that Koivu would have come here on a one-year $3.25 million contract. That's what he signed with Anaheim, but maybe he wanted multiple years, or something closer to $4.5 million if he was going to stay in Montreal and deal with media crap constantly.

We also don't know for sure that he wanted to come back. We've read all the quotes, but I still think Gainey is taking one here for Koivu, saying it was Gainey's decision pure and simple not to bring him back. For all we know Koivu really wanted to go elsewhere, and I really can't blame him if that was the case.

As for next year, one of the major advantages for Pleks is speed. Bob obviously wants a top-6 with speed to burn, and Koivu just doesn't have that any longer. Whether he plays with both Kosty's or one of Cammalleri and Gomez, our 2nd line will be just as ridiculously fast as the first line, which will give the other team fits, especially if they only have one mobile defense tandem.

Not to mention that Pleks may have another 10 years in him, and is by no means guaranteed to walk from Montreal after next season. I still have faith he'll return to "normal" and have somewhere close to 55-60 points this year.

CGG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-27-2009, 10:05 AM
  #104
VenomZeus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 185
vCash: 500
You can't assume that Koivu would have taken that little to stay with Montreal. Maybe Gainey would have actually signed him if he knew he would take that kind of contract. I don't remember Koivu ever taking that kind of discount to play with Montreal...

VenomZeus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-27-2009, 10:10 AM
  #105
417
Registered User
 
417's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ottawa
Country: Haiti
Posts: 20,949
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by VenomZeus View Post
You can't assume that Koivu would have taken that little to stay with Montreal. Maybe Gainey would have actually signed him if he knew he would take that kind of contract. I don't remember Koivu ever taking that kind of discount to play with Montreal...
Koivu would of gotten more from the Habs than he would have gotten anywhere else. I don't think he signs the same deal he got in Anaheim, in Montreal...not even close

Furthermore, I think Koivu also wanted a change of pace

417 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-27-2009, 10:16 AM
  #106
RaMMuT
Tank Nation 2012
 
RaMMuT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Montreal
Country: Palestine
Posts: 1,101
vCash: 500
Koivu is a playoffs beast we are going to miss his services...

RaMMuT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-27-2009, 10:18 AM
  #107
417
Registered User
 
417's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ottawa
Country: Haiti
Posts: 20,949
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RaMMuT View Post
Koivu is a playoffs beast we are going to miss his services...
If Koivu's a playoff beast...then Scott Gomez is a playoff warlord.

P.S. to Habs fans...the NHL consists of 30 NHL teams, not just the Montreal Canadiens

417 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-27-2009, 10:19 AM
  #108
CanadienErrant*
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Country: Cook Islands
Posts: 4,956
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RaMMuT View Post
Koivu is a playoffs beast we are going to miss his services...
He's certainl;y a beast... The Habs has not won more than ONE round of playoff hockey since 1993 !!! ... When they were able to make the playoffs !

It is not because nor despite Koivu... But he DID not make the difference anyway.

CanadienErrant* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-27-2009, 10:26 AM
  #109
HockeyF3ind
Registered User
 
HockeyF3ind's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,827
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
If Koivu's a playoff beast...then Scott Gomez is a playoff warlord.

P.S. to Habs fans...the NHL consists of 30 NHL teams, not just the Montreal Canadiens
P.S. to you, read the thread title before you post.

HockeyF3ind is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-27-2009, 10:30 AM
  #110
HockeyF3ind
Registered User
 
HockeyF3ind's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,827
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadienErrant View Post
He's certainl;y a beast... The Habs has not won more than ONE round of playoff hockey since 1993 !!! ... When they were able to make the playoffs !

It is not because nor despite Koivu... But he DID not make the difference anyway.
He clearly seemed to be the difference when we lost to Carolina the year they won the cup. We were 2 games up, winning a 3rd game that was mostly finished, Koivu went down with the slash to his eye, and the habs collapsed, lost that game, and shortly after the series.

HockeyF3ind is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-27-2009, 10:46 AM
  #111
417
Registered User
 
417's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ottawa
Country: Haiti
Posts: 20,949
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyF3ind View Post
He clearly seemed to be the difference when we lost to Carolina the year they won the cup. We were 2 games up, winning a 3rd game that was mostly finished, Koivu went down with the slash to his eye, and the habs collapsed, lost that game, and shortly after the series.
That was the Hurricanes year that year...they were destined to win. Who knows what would of happen had Koivu not gotten injured, all we can do is speculate.

If you guys want to give Koivu all the credit for the Habs limited success in the playoffs, then you have to assume he takes all the credit for their failures in the playoffs as well.

417 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-27-2009, 10:52 AM
  #112
Freaky Habs Fan
Registered User
 
Freaky Habs Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: New-Brunswick
Posts: 9,530
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyF3ind View Post
He clearly seemed to be the difference when we lost to Carolina the year they won the cup. We were 2 games up, winning a 3rd game that was mostly finished, Koivu went down with the slash to his eye, and the habs collapsed, lost that game, and shortly after the series.
I think it was not because his name was Koivu, but because he was our #1 centre.

Anyways, Koivu is a good player and everything, but Plekanec is more durable, should produce as much, and he's really good on the PK. He can also be our #2 centre for years to come if we re-sign him.

And I really believe the locker room needed a complete turn around. That being said, Koivu had to go...

Freaky Habs Fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-27-2009, 11:32 AM
  #113
Blind Gardien
nexus of the crisis
 
Blind Gardien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Four Winds Bar
Country: France
Posts: 20,551
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
I can debate that...nothing against Koivu, but I think Plekanec, and especially Gomez are better hockey players than Koivu at this point in each player's career. I also don't agree that Koivu took a discount to play in Anaheim, he's getting paid what he should be making. I also don't think that IF he would of re-signed in Montreal, it would of been at a discount. He'd make more money in Montreal than he would anywhere else in the NHL
Sorry, man, I can't respect the hockey opinion of anybody who thinks Plekanec is a better hockey player than Koivu. It's just not happening. Sometimes there's room for debate, but on that one it's not even close enough for there to be room. *Could* Plekanec *one day* be better? Anything's possible. We sure hope he will be. But there's just no evidence to support the argument in a present or past tense. And nothing but wishful thinking to support it for the future.

The rest about the contracts is pure speculation, anything goes, I think he is worth $5M and would have taken $2.5M, you think whatever you want there, none of that means anything, we're just living in our own fantasy worlds on that subject. But the direct on-ice comparison between Koivu and Plekanec is a different animal.

Blind Gardien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-27-2009, 11:36 AM
  #114
Blind Gardien
nexus of the crisis
 
Blind Gardien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Four Winds Bar
Country: France
Posts: 20,551
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadienErrant View Post
At this stage of their respective carreers, Plekanec is superior to Koivu - he is faster, has a better shot and is a better passer, ...
You just said Plekanec is a better passer than Koivu.

Blind Gardien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-27-2009, 11:41 AM
  #115
Whitesnake
Steel your Habs away
 
Whitesnake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Lorraine, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 53,794
vCash: 725
Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
If you guys want to give Koivu all the credit for the Habs limited success in the playoffs, then you have to assume he takes all the credit for their failures in the playoffs as well.
Not gonna happen. It's called the Koivu-Gainey-Timmins effect. You're praised when you do something great, it's not your fault for the things not so great. I didn't find that kind of job yet though.

As far as Plekanec is concerned, I just love the double standards around here not I'm not used to that. EVERYBODY in here, to justify a player's worth, keeps talking about their playoffs success. From our own players, to every player in the league......but not Plekanec? How can we justify the fact that he's so great without performing in the playoffs and not only statswise but even through his own admission that the style of play during that period is not what he likes the most....

He can't and won't be traded in the garbage, but as much as I thought that it was time for Koivu to be moved, I really can't believe that 1 on 1, hockey wise, in order for your team to go far, IN THE PLAYOFFS, people would pick Plekanec....

Whitesnake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-27-2009, 11:43 AM
  #116
MonacoBlue
 
MonacoBlue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4,997
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
Sorry, man, I can't respect the hockey opinion of anybody who thinks Plekanec is a better hockey player than Koivu. It's just not happening. Sometimes there's room for debate, but on that one it's not even close enough for there to be room. *Could* Plekanec *one day* be better? Anything's possible. We sure hope he will be. But there's just no evidence to support the argument in a present or past tense. And nothing but wishful thinking to support it for the future.

The rest about the contracts is pure speculation, anything goes, I think he is worth $5M and would have taken $2.5M, you think whatever you want there, none of that means anything, we're just living in our own fantasy worlds on that subject. But the direct on-ice comparison between Koivu and Plekanec is a different animal.
I tend to agree. Plekanec is a good player, but he really isn't that impressive. If he was "that good," Bob would've re-signed him to a longer contract because his overall contributions in the past would outweigh his bad year. Instead, Plekanec is a UFA next year and possibly not even in the team's plans.

I think that, if you asked the other teams who they would rather have, most (if not practically all) would pick Koivu. This is intensified when you remember that Pleks is also a UFA next year.

MonacoBlue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-27-2009, 11:48 AM
  #117
Miller Time
Registered User
 
Miller Time's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 9,247
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
You just said Plekanec is a better passer than Koivu.
BG i think you are completely forgetting about that indisputable truth that applies to all ex-habs...


the minute they get traded out of the city, they are automatically AT BEST half as good as they would have been had they stayed here.

this or course changes quite quickly once the new season begins and they play at or above the level they played here... but that's another story.


With the pleks/koivu comparison, I guess people that believe Pleks is, right now, a better hockey player than Koivu, were so traumatized by the trashing we took at the hands of the bruins that they have erased that episode and the entire season from their collective memory banks.

I like pleks a lot, and believe that he has the potential to be a very good hockey player, but he's not there yet. Koivu, when healthy, is by far the better player, and it's as you pointed out, not really up for debate.

Miller Time is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-27-2009, 11:49 AM
  #118
417
Registered User
 
417's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ottawa
Country: Haiti
Posts: 20,949
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
Sorry, man, I can't respect the hockey opinion of anybody who thinks Plekanec is a better hockey player than Koivu. It's just not happening. Sometimes there's room for debate, but on that one it's not even close enough for there to be room. *Could* Plekanec *one day* be better? Anything's possible. We sure hope he will be. But there's just no evidence to support the argument in a present or past tense. And nothing but wishful thinking to support it for the future.

The rest about the contracts is pure speculation, anything goes, I think he is worth $5M and would have taken $2.5M, you think whatever you want there, none of that means anything, we're just living in our own fantasy worlds on that subject. But the direct on-ice comparison between Koivu and Plekanec is a different animal.
Well i'm sorry you think this way? I think you're like alot of Habs fans, your *love* for Koivu makes you see something in him as a hockey player that he no longer is. I mean to say that you think Koivu is worth 5M? I just don't agree with that at all, Plekanec's best season in the NHL 2 years ago was a better season than Koivu's best. I agree that their are certain intangibles that Koivu brings that Plekanec will never be able to, but as far as hockey ability goes, it's certainly debatable and IMO, i'd give Plekanec the edge (in terms of ability as a hockey player today)...

but I do respect your opinion on hockey even if we don't agree on this particular subject.

I mean, i'm comparing Saku Koivu and Tomas Plekanec...not Joe Sakic and Steven Reinprecht...

I don't know why you wouldn't respect my opinion on hockey going forward because I dared to say that I prefer Plekanec to Koivu. You don't think you're exagerrating a little?


Last edited by 417: 07-27-2009 at 11:54 AM.
417 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-27-2009, 11:49 AM
  #119
dutchy29
Registered User
 
dutchy29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: SIRISAACBROCKVILLE
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,911
vCash: 500
Maybe chemistry a bit but I think it has more to do with a change in leadership, a new direction, change of face, a change of era, I mean lets face it we have never won anything substantial with Koivu as captain (not that it was his fault) but changing leadership in your captains can be similar to a coaching change, offers new beginning.
I was one of the biggest fans of Koivu but I'm happy hes out of the media scruitinized Montreal and I honestly hope he has a very productive year.

dutchy29 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-27-2009, 11:51 AM
  #120
417
Registered User
 
417's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ottawa
Country: Haiti
Posts: 20,949
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by R8 View Post
I tend to agree. Plekanec is a good player, but he really isn't that impressive. If he was "that good," Bob would've re-signed him to a longer contract because his overall contributions in the past would outweigh his bad year. Instead, Plekanec is a UFA next year and possibly not even in the team's plans.
I think that, if you asked the other teams who they would rather have, most (if not practically all) would pick Koivu. This is intensified when you remember that Pleks is also a UFA next year.
We could use the same 'logic' and say if Koivu was "that good" he would of gotten more than 1 year from the Ducks @ 3.25M.

Weak argument

417 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-27-2009, 11:57 AM
  #121
Quarantesix
#Galchenyuk
 
Quarantesix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Montréal
Posts: 4,502
vCash: 500
I still think Plek will have better stats then Koivu next year for the only reason that I don't think Koivu will play 82 games next year

Quarantesix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-27-2009, 12:06 PM
  #122
Blind Gardien
nexus of the crisis
 
Blind Gardien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Four Winds Bar
Country: France
Posts: 20,551
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
I mean, i'm comparing Saku Koivu and Tomas Plekanec...not Joe Sakic and Steven Reinprecht...

I don't know why you wouldn't respect my opinion on hockey going forward because I dared to say that I prefer Plekanec to Koivu. You don't think you're exagerrating a little?
It's not so far off Sakic vs. Reinprecht to me. Probably some zany Avs fan somewhere at some time said he thought Reinprecht was better too. HFBoards sees it all, eventually. So yeah, if somebody really truly thinks Plekanec is better than Koivu - or even that his best season was better than Koivu's best season - then we're simply not watching the same game or operating with the same set of observational parameters. Fair enough, we don't have to. Hopefully in a few months it will become a moot point and Plekanec will take a big step forward that erases the poignancy of the question. Then we can just sign Koivu in the summer of 2010 to replace him when Pleks signs as a UFA elsewhere and we can do the thread over with a twist.

Blind Gardien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-27-2009, 12:13 PM
  #123
CanadienErrant*
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Country: Cook Islands
Posts: 4,956
vCash: 500
People seems to forget the thread title...

People also think that Koivu would had sign a one-year contract at 3,25 with the Habs... You're dreaming !

People forget that Koivu is 35, not 26 anymore like Plekanec...

Plekanec has proved two years ago that he can be an effective and productive second-line center.

Koivu never accepted to be number 2 center in Montreal. Would he have accepted not to play on PP anymore and play behind Gomez ? He did not want to compete with his younger brother Mikko... thinking that he has still number 1 center wrtitten all over him...

CanadienErrant* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-27-2009, 12:19 PM
  #124
Habs10Habs
Retired
 
Habs10Habs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Country: Canada
Posts: 52,726
vCash: 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadienErrant View Post
People seems to forget the thread title...

People also think that Koivu would had sign a one-year contract at 3,25 with the Habs... You're dreaming !

People forget that Koivu is 35, not 26 anymore like Plekanec...

Plekanec has proved two years ago that he can be an effective and productive second-line center.

Koivu never accepted to be number 2 center in Montreal. Would he have accepted not to play on PP anymore and play behind Gomez ? He did not want to compete with his younger brother Mikko... thinking that he has still number 1 center wrtitten all over him...
So why would he go to Anaheim where Getzlaf is obviously their #1 center? This has already been mentioned before, yet you still feel the need to bring it up over and over again.

Habs10Habs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-27-2009, 12:20 PM
  #125
417
Registered User
 
417's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ottawa
Country: Haiti
Posts: 20,949
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
It's not so far off Sakic vs. Reinprecht to me. Probably some zany Avs fan somewhere at some time said he thought Reinprecht was better too. HFBoards sees it all, eventually. So yeah, if somebody really truly thinks Plekanec is better than Koivu - or even that his best season was better than Koivu's best season - then we're simply not watching the same game or operating with the same set of observational parameters. Fair enough, we don't have to. Hopefully in a few months it will become a moot point and Plekanec will take a big step forward that erases the poignancy of the question. Then we can just sign Koivu in the summer of 2010 to replace him when Pleks signs as a UFA elsewhere and we can do the thread over with a twist.
I won't even get into your comments about Sakic vs. Reinprecht...I'm assuming you're just kidding because we're talking about a Hall of Famer vs. a good but dime-a-dozen player....

As for Plekanec's best season being better than Koivu...it's not that far fetched.

Statistically speaking, Koivu's best season came in 06-07 when he had 75pts and Plekanec's best statistical season of course was 2 years ago when he had 69pts...but if you look at the numbers closely, Koivu's 75pts came at the detriment of his defensive game as he had a career worst -21 rating and scored 43 of his 75pts on the PP. Saku Koivu contributed 29 even strength points that year, which actually TIED him for the team lead with...Tomas Plekanec who that same year managed to record 47pts...

Flash forward 1 year, Plekanec records a career high 69pts (to go along with 29 goals) along with a +15 rating and LEADS the Habs in even strenght points with 41pts...Koivu finished that same year with 56pts, a -4 rating and 27 even strength points.

In fact, Koivu's two best statistical seasons came in years where the Habs MISSED the playoffs...so yeah, I don't think i'm far off in saying that Koivu's best season, IMO, wasn't as good as Plekanec's best.

Hey, Blind Gardien, I always respect your opinion even when I don't agree with it, but you can't tell me you were more impressed with Koivu's best season the year the Habs lost the last game of the season to the Leafs to fall out of the playoffs, then Plekanec's best season where the Habs finished as the top team in the East...you can't seriously believe that


Last edited by 417: 07-27-2009 at 12:29 PM.
417 is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:07 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2015 All Rights Reserved.