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Old
04-01-2004, 04:21 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by PecaFan
Haha, that's a good one. Jealous of what? The uber-fantastic tee times Mark has brought his teammates for seven years in a row? The tension and strife amongst teammates he caused in the dressing room? Stealing the Captaincy off the sweater of the real captain? The retardation of the team's prospects, because he refused to recognise his reduced skill level, and refused to reduce his ice time? The inability to lead two different teams that were *stacked* in talent even into the playoffs? The practical theft of 30 million dollars in pay for being the so-called "best leader in sports", and then barely showing up for the past 7 years?

I got to experience the Great Messier Fraud firsthand.

Yeah, that Mess guy really sucked.

Stop making a complete fool of yourself.

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04-01-2004, 04:50 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by JR#9
Yeah, that Mess guy really sucked.

Stop making a complete fool of yourself.
Messier did nothing for Vancouver or the Canucks, that's why he's saying that. He's not making a fool of himself, he's telling the truth, but I guess that's not allowed when you're talking about Mark Messier.

He was instrumental in running Trevor Linden out of town when he was here, and quite frankly, I won't forgive him for that. Call it petty, call it jealous, but Mess was a joke in Vancouver.

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Old
04-01-2004, 04:52 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Kirk Pedersen
Messier did nothing for Vancouver or the Canucks, that's why he's saying that. He's not making a fool of himself, he's telling the truth, but I guess that's not allowed when you're talking about Mark Messier.

He was instrumental in running Trevor Linden out of town when he was here, and quite frankly, I won't forgive him for that. Call it petty, call it jealous, but Mess was a joke in Vancouver.
Bingo.

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Old
04-01-2004, 05:31 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PecaFan
Haha, that's a good one. Jealous of what? The uber-fantastic tee times Mark has brought his teammates for seven years in a row? The tension and strife amongst teammates he caused in the dressing room? Stealing the Captaincy off the sweater of the real captain? The retardation of the team's prospects, because he refused to recognise his reduced skill level, and refused to reduce his ice time? The inability to lead two different teams that were *stacked* in talent even into the playoffs? The practical theft of 30 million dollars in pay for being the so-called "best leader in sports", and then barely showing up for the past 7 years?

I got to experience the Great Messier Fraud firsthand.

Some very valid points here. I think Mess will always be considered one of the greats, but what pecafan writes is true. And to write it off as jealously is ridiculous.

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Old
04-01-2004, 05:34 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13
Jealousy sure is ugly.
I don't understand, what is he jealous of exactly? Fill me in

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Old
04-01-2004, 05:39 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PecaFan
Haha, that's a good one. Jealous of what? The uber-fantastic tee times Mark has brought his teammates for seven years in a row? The tension and strife amongst teammates he caused in the dressing room? Stealing the Captaincy off the sweater of the real captain? The retardation of the team's prospects, because he refused to recognise his reduced skill level, and refused to reduce his ice time? The inability to lead two different teams that were *stacked* in talent even into the playoffs? The practical theft of 30 million dollars in pay for being the so-called "best leader in sports", and then barely showing up for the past 7 years?

I got to experience the Great Messier Fraud firsthand.
Sounds like Messier is your scape goat.

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Old
04-01-2004, 05:51 PM
  #57
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http://www.nhl.com/columns/wigge/naslund120302.html

"I was never going make the kind of impact Mess does because I was never going to be the physical force he is," Naslund laughs, while showing me his fist. "In his last year here, a lot of players were scared to say anything in the locker room with Mark in the room. To me, the best way to improve a team's chemistry is through give and take.

"And while I was in awe watching Mario, I was young. What I learned most from him is that Mario has something that not a lot of people have. He doesn't think he ever is going to fail. When you always have that approach, that you're going to make it, that you are going to make a difference, the mind is a pretty powerful thing."

I have no opinion of Messier since I didn't watch him play much, but to dismiss all criticisms of him is unfair.

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Old
04-01-2004, 06:11 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Cap'n Flavour
http://www.nhl.com/columns/wigge/naslund120302.html

"I was never going make the kind of impact Mess does because I was never going to be the physical force he is," Naslund laughs, while showing me his fist. "In his last year here, a lot of players were scared to say anything in the locker room with Mark in the room. To me, the best way to improve a team's chemistry is through give and take.

"And while I was in awe watching Mario, I was young. What I learned most from him is that Mario has something that not a lot of people have. He doesn't think he ever is going to fail. When you always have that approach, that you're going to make it, that you are going to make a difference, the mind is a pretty powerful thing."

I have no opinion of Messier since I didn't watch him play much, but to dismiss all criticisms of him is unfair.
Firstly, to start calling the man a fraud in a tribute thread to him on the eve of his retirment is pathetic. Save it for a different thread, or better yet, let the man retire for a few days before bashing him.

The guy is second all time in scoring and has won 6 cups... maybe he deserves a bit of repect for his final game.

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Old
04-01-2004, 06:15 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by oil slick
Firstly, to start calling the man a fraud in a tribute thread to him on the eve of his retirment is pathetic. Save it for a different thread, or better yet, let the man retire for a few days before bashing him.

The guy is second all time in scoring and has won 6 cups... maybe he deserves a bit of repect for his final game.

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Old
04-01-2004, 06:22 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PecaFan
The tension and strife amongst teammates he caused in the dressing room? Stealing the Captaincy off the sweater of the real captain? The retardation of the team's prospects, because he refused to recognise his reduced skill level, and refused to reduce his ice time?
Links?

Exactly how many cups has Linden, the real captain, led any team to?

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Old
04-01-2004, 06:35 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Dantes19
Some very valid points here. I think Mess will always be considered one of the greats, but what pecafan writes is true. And to write it off as jealously is ridiculous.
Was Messier perfect? Hell no! I wouldn't call him a classy competitor, probably because he wanted to win SO much. He would do whatever it took to win.

I just think it's funny that Mess is being blamed for the the lack of recent play-off success for the Rangers & Nucks. Regardless of the talent on those teams, there were HUGE flaws in both teams that Messier wasn't able to cover for late in his career. I also remember that Naslund said that he learned how to be a captain from Mess.

What more could Messier do for the Rangers this year? He was probably among the top 3 3rd line players in the game. The Rangers didn't make the play-off's due to bad coaching, injuries, bad goaltending, and a lack of production from core players (Nedved, Carter, Kovalev, Lindros). Mess was playing with Chris Simon & Dan Lacoutre while scoring 40+ pts, and playing solid defensively. If the rest of the team had performed half as well as Mess did this year, the Rangers would be in the play-off's.

Pecafan is just coming accross like he's eating sour grapes. All he has mentioned was the lack of play-off's on flawed teams as a reason to rip on a HOF'er. Gretzky didn't get the Rangers to the play-off's his last year, and we won't mention Lemieux after his comeback (although that due to injury to a certain extent).

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Old
04-01-2004, 07:19 PM
  #62
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Even though he's up in the age, I think he's only a couple games away from most played in the NHL. If that's true, then he should play those few games, and then retire. I do believe he's also only 7 goals away from 700, and he could easily reach that if there is a next season. If there's a short lockout, I think Mess might have some unfinished business. If not, he'll have had a great career.

Once he retires, I expect his #11 to be retired by the Oil and Rags. I also wouldn't be surprised to see him elected to the Hall of Fame as early as this fall.

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Old
04-01-2004, 07:24 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richardn
Good bye to one of the greatest players to ever play the game. I would rank Messier as number five on my all time best players.

1. Wayne Gretzky
2. Bobby Orr
3. Mario Lemieux
4. Phil Esposito
5. Mark Messier
No Gordie?

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Old
04-01-2004, 07:45 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by ducksflytogether
No Gordie?
6. Rocket Richard
7. Gordie Howe
8. Mike Bossy
9. Steve Yzerman
10.Guy Lafleur

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Old
04-01-2004, 08:02 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by richardn
6. Rocket Richard
7. Gordie Howe
8. Mike Bossy
9. Steve Yzerman
10.Guy Lafleur
There was much debate whether Gordie or Wayne was better. Obviously Wayne, but Gordie was great as well. He's definetely better than Esposito and Messier, and probably better than Orr too.

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Old
04-01-2004, 08:12 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by ducksflytogether
There was much debate whether Gordie or Wayne was better. Obviously Wayne, but Gordie was great as well. He's definetely better than Esposito and Messier, and probably better than Orr too.
Better then Orr are you crazy. I would almost have Orr as high as Gretzky. Did you ever see Gordie Howe's points per game average. Phil Esposito had way more skill then Howe. Nothing against Howe, He was a clone of Messier or vice versa I mean. Messier was a little better though I do think.

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Old
04-01-2004, 08:18 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by richardn
Better then Orr are you crazy. I would almost have Orr as high as Gretzky. Did you ever see Gordie Howe's points per game average. Phil Esposito had way more skill then Howe. Nothing against Howe, He was a clone of Messier or vice versa I mean. Messier was a little better though I do think.
"clone of Messier"? Check your facts.

Yes, he stuck around for a while.

But, he was in the TOP 5 of LEAGUE SCORING for 21 consecutive years, an achievement Messier comes nowhere near.

21 years. Can you even count that high? That's how dominant Howe was. "Messier was a little better though"-indeed


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Old
04-01-2004, 08:20 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by richardn
Better then Orr are you crazy. I would almost have Orr as high as Gretzky. Did you ever see Gordie Howe's points per game average. Phil Esposito had way more skill then Howe. Nothing against Howe, He was a clone of Messier or vice versa I mean. Messier was a little better though I do think.
Have you ever considered Gordie's PPG may be low because he played in a low scoring era? He also had the ability to keep playing all the way untill his son started, unlike Orr who had shoddy knees. Gordie is IMO #2 all-time. Then again, maybe the Sask. bias is showing.

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Old
04-01-2004, 08:45 PM
  #69
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It's sad that the jealousy of Canuck fans has once again ruined a nice thread :gman:

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04-01-2004, 09:17 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Burke's Evil Spirit
"clone of Messier"? Check your facts.

Yes, he stuck around for a while.

But, he was in the TOP 5 of LEAGUE SCORING for 21 consecutive years, an achievement Messier comes nowhere near.

21 years. Can you even count that high? That's how dominant Howe was. "Messier was a little better though"-indeed

I got no comments for remarks like that. What do you think I am 2. "Can you even count that high" . I rank Howe seventh on my all time top 10 big deal. Just because you don't like Messier and I do does not make me stupid.

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Old
04-01-2004, 09:22 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by ducksflytogether
Have you ever considered Gordie's PPG may be low because he played in a low scoring era? He also had the ability to keep playing all the way untill his son started, unlike Orr who had shoddy knees. Gordie is IMO #2 all-time. Then again, maybe the Sask. bias is showing.
I disagree about Howe, I personally think he is overrated when compared to the other great players of all time. Orr was in a class of his own just like Gretzky and Lemiux. If those two guys would not have had injury problems they would both be past Howe on the all time scoring list. Howe was the most dominant player in the game in his prime yes. But his era did not have the same calibar players as the 70's and 80's.

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Old
04-01-2004, 09:27 PM
  #72
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Year's later and Van fan's still over Messier...

Yet, doesn't the Canuck fan's loverboy Naslund (who nobody better EVER talk bad about...that is, until he leave's Vancouver too) cite Messier as a guy who really helped him and the organization out during his stay there? Pretty sure I read that afew times here and there.

Still, it's cute to keep seeing though

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04-01-2004, 09:57 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Beukeboom Fan
Pecafan is just coming accross like he's eating sour grapes. All he has mentioned was the lack of play-off's on flawed teams as a reason to rip on a HOF'er. Gretzky didn't get the Rangers to the play-off's his last year, and we won't mention Lemieux after his comeback (although that due to injury to a certain extent).
Sour grapes - maybe. However, IMO it's not a coincidence that Vancouver made the playoffs immediately before Messier arrived, and immediately after he left.

As for TheoFan, Naslund says good things about everybody. He says good things about Keenan, for Christ's sake!

All Messier did in Vancouver was float, it was pretty clear that Naslund learned nothing from him.

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Old
04-01-2004, 10:56 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Burke's Evil Spirit
7 years too late, Mark.
He had 18 goals this year...i'd say he had a good season.

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Old
04-01-2004, 11:10 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by PecaFan
Haha, that's a good one. Jealous of what? The uber-fantastic tee times Mark has brought his teammates for seven years in a row? The tension and strife amongst teammates he caused in the dressing room? Stealing the Captaincy off the sweater of the real captain? The retardation of the team's prospects, because he refused to recognise his reduced skill level, and refused to reduce his ice time? The inability to lead two different teams that were *stacked* in talent even into the playoffs? The practical theft of 30 million dollars in pay for being the so-called "best leader in sports", and then barely showing up for the past 7 years?

I got to experience the Great Messier Fraud firsthand.
Interesting, I thought making the playoffs was a team effort is it not?

Just because the canucks sucked when Messier was there doesn't take away from what he's accomplished. tell me how many other players have won 6 cups and scored over 1,500 points?

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