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04-01-2004, 11:11 PM
  #76
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My most memorable Messier moment.

Watching the Flames play the Rangers at MSG (on TV of course). Messier had 497 goals at that time. And he goes and scores 3 goals, from the same spot on the Flames to get to 500. What a way to do it.

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04-01-2004, 11:13 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Burke's Evil Spirit
"clone of Messier"? Check your facts.

Yes, he stuck around for a while.

But, he was in the TOP 5 of LEAGUE SCORING for 21 consecutive years, an achievement Messier comes nowhere near.

21 years. Can you even count that high? That's how dominant Howe was. "Messier was a little better though"-indeed

How many teams were in the league again?

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04-01-2004, 11:15 PM
  #78
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I'm glad to see this has turned into a thread meant to bring down the careers of every great player we can think of.

Can't wait for Gretz'.

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04-02-2004, 06:14 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Hitman
I'm glad to see this has turned into a thread meant to bring down the careers of every great player we can think of.

Can't wait for Gretz'.
I agree.... Gretzky is such a floater. And his last couple of years with the Blue shirts - pathetic... did you know that the rags missed the playoffs with him?

Oh, and don't even get me started about Mario... his team finished off in last place, two years in a row! He is such a ******.

And then there was Orr. The dude signs with the Hawks and scores 6 points. God what a floater. Where was the cup for the Hawks?

As for Howe, he should be eliminated from all hockey discussions. His last 5 years with the Wings... they only played one round of playoff hockey. Ass wipe.

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04-02-2004, 11:34 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Burke's Evil Spirit
Sour grapes - maybe. However, IMO it's not a coincidence that Vancouver made the playoffs immediately before Messier arrived, and immediately after he left.

As for TheoFan, Naslund says good things about everybody. He says good things about Keenan, for Christ's sake!

All Messier did in Vancouver was float, it was pretty clear that Naslund learned nothing from him.
Yeah, I'm sure that all of the other changes that VAN made had nothing to do with them making the P/O's after Mess left. I'm sure that Mark was impeding the progress of Bertuzzi, Jovo & Ohlund. It wasn't until they were able to get out from Mess's evil spell that they were able to really show their true colors.

I'm not saying that Mess doesn't have his faults, but he's catching a lot of heat here for stuff that is beyond his control. Over the last 7 years, he has averaged 20g & 37a for a 82 game season. While that's not the production that I'm sure that Canucks thought they'd get for the $6.5M per year, Messier produced pretty solidly for a guy his age. Especially if you considered his style of play throughout his career. Historically, power forwards don't age particularly well.

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04-02-2004, 11:37 AM
  #81
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I'm not really certain that Messier did anything for the Canucks. I'm not saying Mess isn't/wasn't a great player, because he certainly was, but in my opinion, his time in Vancouver was the low point of his career.

That said, I'm still not certain about all this Messier retiring hype. Messier is so old that people have been saying he's going to retire since 1999, and the old warrior never hangs them up. I'm not saying he WON'T retire, but at the same time, I just don't think its prudent to assume he is done yet.

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04-02-2004, 11:59 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Beukeboom Fan

What more could Messier do for the Rangers this year? He was probably among the top 3 3rd line players in the game. The Rangers didn't make the play-off's due to bad coaching, injuries, bad goaltending, and a lack of production from core players (Nedved, Carter, Kovalev, Lindros). Mess was playing with Chris Simon & Dan Lacoutre while scoring 40+ pts, and playing solid defensively. If the rest of the team had performed half as well as Mess did this year, the Rangers would be in the play-off's.

Pecafan is just coming accross like he's eating sour grapes. All he has mentioned was the lack of play-off's on flawed teams as a reason to rip on a HOF'er. Gretzky didn't get the Rangers to the play-off's his last year, and we won't mention Lemieux after his comeback (although that due to injury to a certain extent).

What more could mess have done?? How about stepped up and said something instead of watching the Rangers sink for the past 7 years? It says something when a man who was supposedly still a great leader couldn't get his team into the playoffs. Captains are supposed to help elevate the performances of those on the team. Messier, IMO, didn't do that over the last six/seven years. Up until around 1997, yeah. But 1997-2004, no way. Yeah he still scored his 20 goals, but he was often one of the guys making turnovers or lazily backcheching.
Look i'm not disputing Messier's greatness. Everyone knows he's one of the alltime greats. What I and i think other are saying is that i don't think that greatness should require us to forget about the last seven years. As captain I would expect him to step up and point out the need for change in a regime/approach that obviously wasn't working. But he never objected to the approach that Sather took and went along for the ride as the playoff drought continued. Obviosuly all of the seven years' problems weren't messier's fault, but i don't think he should get a free pass because of the 18 years prior.


Last edited by Dantes19: 04-02-2004 at 12:03 PM.
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04-02-2004, 12:07 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Hitman
I'm glad to see this has turned into a thread meant to bring down the careers of every great player we can think of.

Can't wait for Gretz'.
I think you missed the point. It's not to bring down his career, it's just that a lot of people paint this picture of Mess as a perfect, did-no-wrong player. I have no problem talking aboutt how great he was as long as their is the same willingness to talk about his shortcomings.

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04-02-2004, 12:22 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Dantes19
I think you missed the point. It's not to bring down his career, it's just that a lot of people paint this picture of Mess as a perfect, did-no-wrong player. I have no problem talking aboutt how great he was as long as their is the same willingness to talk about his shortcomings.
It makes me laugh when Canuck fans blame Messier for the Canucks missing the playoffs. The reason Vancouver never made the playoffs is because they didn't have any good goaltending. The year Messier left they got Dan Cloutier who has been the real backbone of the team in the last few years. Also Bertuzzi and Naslund were not at the same level as they are now. The same goes for the Rangers, the Rangers have had very shaky goaltending since they won the cup in 94.

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04-02-2004, 12:25 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by richardn
It makes me laugh when Canuck fans blame Messier for the Canucks missing the playoffs. The reason Vancouver never made the playoffs is because they didn't have any good goaltending. The year Messier left they got Dan Cloutier who has been the real backbone of the team in the last few years. Also Bertuzzi and Naslund were not at the same level as they are now. The same goes for the Rangers, the Rangers have had very shaky goaltending since they won the cup in 94.
Dunham played well enough last year to get the Rangers into the playoffs. It wasn't goaltending that ultimately cost them a playoff spot. It was lack of focus, lack of effort, lack of defense (see the game versus Penguins at end of last year). So don't try to play it off like it was all the goaltending. And I never blamed Messier for the Canucks missing the playoffs either.

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04-02-2004, 12:34 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Dantes19
Dunham played well enough last year to get the Rangers into the playoffs. It wasn't goaltending that ultimately cost them a playoff spot. It was lack of focus, lack of effort, lack of defense (see the game versus Penguins at end of last year). So don't try to play it off like it was all the goaltending. And I never blamed Messier for the Canucks missing the playoffs either.
I never meant to reply to your response that was an accident.

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04-02-2004, 12:38 PM
  #87
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It is still wrong to blame Messier for the teams missfortunes for the last few years. Dunham came in a little to late in that year. Had he been playing all year the rangers would have made the playoffs. Dunham has been far from spectacular this year. I really think his play was the difference in the team making the playoffs. They also had way to many injuries to over come.

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04-02-2004, 12:53 PM
  #88
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Saying that the canucks never made the playoffs because of Messier's pour leadership is like saying that the Leafs never made the Playoffs because Gilmour was unable to lead them to the playoffs. The Leafs turned everything arround when they got Cujo. Goaltending is the backbone to any team. The Leafs missed the playoffs with some good teams with Gilmour being the captain. I still don't blame Gilmour or take anything away from his ability to be a leader. How about Ray Bourque, he captained some good teams to losey seasons. Does that make him a crappy leader. This thread was supposed to honour one of the greatest players to ever play the game not nit pick his so called failures. Talk about kicking a man when he is down.

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04-02-2004, 02:14 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Burke's Evil Spirit
Bingo.
Yeah that part of Messier's career is pretty forgettable. During that time the Canucks had Naslund, Bure, Mogliny, Messier, Linden etc. It looked promising but they couldn't make the playoffs. I know I'm missing a couple of name players there but the Canucks at that time could have put together 2 really really sick lines together.

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04-02-2004, 02:49 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by richardn
It is still wrong to blame Messier for the teams missfortunes for the last few years. Dunham came in a little to late in that year. Had he been playing all year the rangers would have made the playoffs. Dunham has been far from spectacular this year. I really think his play was the difference in the team making the playoffs. They also had way to many injuries to over come.
Couple of points....

FIRST: I agree that it is wrong to blame Messier for all of the Rangers' problems. But I never did so in the first place, and have seen few that did.

Second: Dunham did not come in to late last year. He and Blackburn did a solid enough job to get the Rangers into the playoffs. Toward the end of last it was as though the Islanders were tryin to give away the 8th spot. They kept losing, but the Rangers couldn't get the wins needed to step up and get that last spot. The Rangers lost too many winnable games down the stretch (like I said, the Pittsburgh game is perfect example). They lost those games mainly due to lack of effort and sloppy defensive play. Things that had been goin on in NY for a while. What I'm sayin is that Messier, as captain, IMO had something of a duty to step up and give the team the kick in the ass needed to focus and win those very much winnable games. That obviously never happened (or else his efforts were ineffective at best). The Rangers kept losin and obviously missed out even though it only took like 85 points to get in. And in many of those losses, Messier was one of the ones (one of many albeit) that played an unfocused and defensively lacking game.

Third: Agree that Dunham has been far from spectacular this year. But have you watched the Rangers?? They are atrocious on defense. many of the goals Dunham gave up were a result of blown defensive assignments or just weak overal defensive efforts. Sure he let in his fair share of goals off of things like his infamous rebounds. But what I'm sayin is NYR has no defensive system. It's like a chinese fire drill when they're on defense. You'll have three guys convergin on one guy, while two others are left open in the low slot. Would the Rangers have made the playoffs in '02-'03 if Dunham was there the whole year? Maybe, but its obviously speculative. That's sidestepping the point that Messier often talked about needing better effort and commitment to defense, yet rarely backed it up on the ice. He (and many others) fell into that Ranger mindset of focusing on offense while neglecting d-zone responsibilties. I also never heard Messier call for a change in system/philosophy. You would think that he would get tired of missing the playoffs and might use his pull with Sather to try to get the team to SERIOUSLY commit to a defensive system. But he seemed content with the "system" the team was playing, even though it got them nowhere.

FOURTH: Don't even try to pull out the injuries card as an excuse for the Rangers. That stuff makes me think you're Jimmy Dolan or Glen Sather. Have the Rangers had injuries this year? Yes. But so has every team. Detroit loses Hatcher, Draper, etc... Philly loses Roenick, Primeau, Desjardins. The Kings lost basically their whole damn roster. Yet even the Kings managed to hang in there and fight through the injuries (which were about 20 times worse than anything NYR got). They did it by busting their ass, by committing to a system and by getting good coaching. The Rangers did none of those 3 things this year consistently. Point is that pretty much all the teams have had key guys go down to injury. But the good teams fight through it and don't rely on it as an excuse.

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04-02-2004, 02:55 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by richardn
Saying that the canucks never made the playoffs because of Messier's pour leadership is like saying that the Leafs never made the Playoffs because Gilmour was unable to lead them to the playoffs. The Leafs turned everything arround when they got Cujo. Goaltending is the backbone to any team. The Leafs missed the playoffs with some good teams with Gilmour being the captain. I still don't blame Gilmour or take anything away from his ability to be a leader. How about Ray Bourque, he captained some good teams to losey seasons. Does that make him a crappy leader. This thread was supposed to honour one of the greatest players to ever play the game not nit pick his so called failures. Talk about kicking a man when he is down.
Again, I'm not tryin to deliberately trash Messier. LIke I've said before, I think he's a great player and as a Ranger fan realize how valuable he was to the 1994 team. But I thought this was a farewell thread, saying farewell to Mess and looking back on his career. When I look back on his career (or anyone's) I think of the career in its entirety. Both good and not-so-good aspects. If you're gonna talk about his achievements and strong points, that's great. I don't see why it's then so bad to discuss his weaknesses and shortcomings as well. In my mind it's just looking at the complete, overall picture of a player's career.

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04-02-2004, 03:18 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Dantes19
Again, I'm not tryin to deliberately trash Messier. LIke I've said before, I think he's a great player and as a Ranger fan realize how valuable he was to the 1994 team. But I thought this was a farewell thread, saying farewell to Mess and looking back on his career. When I look back on his career (or anyone's) I think of the career in its entirety. Both good and not-so-good aspects. If you're gonna talk about his achievements and strong points, that's great. I don't see why it's then so bad to discuss his weaknesses and shortcomings as well. In my mind it's just looking at the complete, overall picture of a player's career.
I am not really complaining about your comments. I am angry about some other people on here trying to say that Messier is a bad captain and a cancer to any team he played for. Sure Messier had some some sub par years towards the end of his carreer, big deal. Lets talk about all those cups he one and how he is second in all time NHL scoring and was the best power forward to ever play the game. Not to mention his conditioning and work ethic that let him play till his mid 40's. I honestly think he could play another 2 or 3 years and continue to score 15 to 20 goals a year.

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04-02-2004, 03:51 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Coffey77
Yeah that part of Messier's career is pretty forgettable. During that time the Canucks had Naslund, Bure, Mogliny, Messier, Linden etc. It looked promising but they couldn't make the playoffs. I know I'm missing a couple of name players there but the Canucks at that time could have put together 2 really really sick lines together.
How about Bertuzzi, Ohlund, McCabe, Aucoin, Scatchard, Jovanovski, and Brashear? Ok, maybe scratch Brashear. Not all those players were available at the same time, but at any given time when he was here there was a solid core of 10-12 *excellent* players.

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I am not really complaining about your comments. I am angry about some other people on here trying to say that Messier is a bad captain and a cancer to any team he played for.
I don't think anybody said that. I for one, am only commenting on his Vancouver years. When he was here, yes, he was a cancer, and the dressing room was in complete disarray. Some players *still* won't even comment on those years if you ask them, that's how bad things were. Clearly in Edmonton and his first go-around in New York, that wasn't the case.

Some of us were simply trying to bring some balance into the topic, because it started out as a "bless St. Mark" topic, where he could do no wrong.

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04-02-2004, 04:23 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by PecaFan
How about Bertuzzi, Ohlund, McCabe, Aucoin, Scatchard, Jovanovski, and Brashear? Ok, maybe scratch Brashear. Not all those players were available at the same time, but at any given time when he was here there was a solid core of 10-12 *excellent* players.



I don't think anybody said that. I for one, am only commenting on his Vancouver years. When he was here, yes, he was a cancer, and the dressing room was in complete disarray. Some players *still* won't even comment on those years if you ask them, that's how bad things were. Clearly in Edmonton and his first go-around in New York, that wasn't the case.

Some of us were simply trying to bring some balance into the topic, because it started out as a "bless St. Mark" topic, where he could do no wrong.
I give up, Lets just leave it at Messier being the scape goat for the goaly-less Canucks and second go arround Rangers. I for one think Messier probably rubbed off on Bertuzzi and others in the Canucks organization. If Messier is your idea of a Cancer how can I get that Cancer because he is the type of cancer that I would take on my team any day of the year.

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04-02-2004, 06:37 PM
  #95
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If Messier is your idea of a Cancer how can I get that Cancer because he is the type of cancer that I would take on my team any day of the year.
Were you here in Vancouver? I highly doubt it. Because if you were, you'd know just what kind of cancer he was.

Practically the first day, he asks the team to *un-retire his number* so he can wear his beloved #11. "Screw that Wayne Maki and his brain tumour, gimme gimme". Then he takes the captaincy, and treats Trevor Linden like **** until he finally gets him traded off the team. More "gimme gimme". He couldn't even bother to have the decency to get him traded first, and then take the "C" when it was vacant.

I think if Messier had walked into Toronto, demanded Bill Barilko's retired number, took the captaincy from Clark or Gilmour, and drove your team to the bottom of the standings, you'd be less excited to have him.

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04-03-2004, 10:02 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Dantes19
What more could mess have done?? How about stepped up and said something instead of watching the Rangers sink for the past 7 years? It says something when a man who was supposedly still a great leader couldn't get his team into the playoffs. Captains are supposed to help elevate the performances of those on the team. Messier, IMO, didn't do that over the last six/seven years. Up until around 1997, yeah. But 1997-2004, no way. Yeah he still scored his 20 goals, but he was often one of the guys making turnovers or lazily backcheching.
Look i'm not disputing Messier's greatness. Everyone knows he's one of the alltime greats. What I and i think other are saying is that i don't think that greatness should require us to forget about the last seven years. As captain I would expect him to step up and point out the need for change in a regime/approach that obviously wasn't working. But he never objected to the approach that Sather took and went along for the ride as the playoff drought continued. Obviosuly all of the seven years' problems weren't messier's fault, but i don't think he should get a free pass because of the 18 years prior.
You're right - I'm sure that Messier never said anything in the locker room. He was just playing out the string, and was cashing his paychecks. He didn't really want to make the play-off's.

You ever consider that players have to want to be led? The it's the coachs responsibility to have some sort of defensive strategy to play? That it's the GM's job to build a teams chemistry? Not just add "talent" and throw a team together. But I'm sure that it's Messier fault because he didn't want to have to worry about any sort of defensive system. Messier also didn't want to play on a team with a decent goaltender, so he made sure the GM never addressed the issue.

Leadership is very hard to measure, because we are not in the lockerroom with the players. We have NO idea what goes on, so we judge the leadership by the results on the ice. I agree that Mess has to take some portion of the blame for the lack of play-off's, but what's going on here is similiar to blaming the Helmsman for the Titanic sinking. The last 6-7 years of his career, Mess wasn't able to physically dominate a game like he did earlier. I just place more blame for the Rangers issues on the Dolan, Neil Smith, Glen Sather, the coaching staff, injuries, and the players that haven't performed like Lindros, Kovalev, Carter, Nedved (for extended stretches of time), Malakhov, etc.

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04-03-2004, 01:29 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Beukeboom Fan
You're right - I'm sure that Messier never said anything in the locker room. He was just playing out the string, and was cashing his paychecks. He didn't really want to make the play-off's.

You ever consider that players have to want to be led? The it's the coachs responsibility to have some sort of defensive strategy to play? That it's the GM's job to build a teams chemistry? Not just add "talent" and throw a team together. But I'm sure that it's Messier fault because he didn't want to have to worry about any sort of defensive system. Messier also didn't want to play on a team with a decent goaltender, so he made sure the GM never addressed the issue.

Leadership is very hard to measure, because we are not in the lockerroom with the players. We have NO idea what goes on, so we judge the leadership by the results on the ice. I agree that Mess has to take some portion of the blame for the lack of play-off's, but what's going on here is similiar to blaming the Helmsman for the Titanic sinking. The last 6-7 years of his career, Mess wasn't able to physically dominate a game like he did earlier. I just place more blame for the Rangers issues on the Dolan, Neil Smith, Glen Sather, the coaching staff, injuries, and the players that haven't performed like Lindros, Kovalev, Carter, Nedved (for extended stretches of time), Malakhov, etc.

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