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Mayers vs. Primeau

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Old
07-28-2009, 12:39 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Leafer 21 View Post
Both are terrible hockey players.
Both won't be here next year

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07-28-2009, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
All a fourth liner needs to do is not screw up, Primeau is probably less likely to.
I disagree. Fourth liners are supposed to bring energy & toughness to the table while being able to protect our star players. Not screwing up is just more of a job security type thing when you're on the fourth line.

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07-28-2009, 12:42 PM
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Which is the most inspiring color; Grey or Beige?

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07-28-2009, 12:44 PM
  #29
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I disagree. Fourth liners are supposed to bring energy & toughness to the table while being able to protect our star players. Not screwing up is just more of a job security type thing when you're on the fourth line.
Why would you disagree? The fourth line is only going to score but a few goals all season so they have to make sure they don't have more scored against them. Energy and toughness is part of the package but secondary.

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07-28-2009, 12:54 PM
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I've got a feeling we won't see either of these guys in the lineup come opening day. Primeau was just a throw in, the trade was all about getting something for Stralman and gaining a pick.

Primeau & Mayers to waivers, Marlies or another club. Bank it.

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07-28-2009, 01:22 PM
  #31
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Woww.... so much ignorance in this post.

First off.... Mitchell is a 4th line centerman, starting to develop into a 3rd line centerman role.

I've seen some people propose that he should be our 2nd line centerman!

Wallin definately has some tallent. He has a very good shot at making the leafs..... He isn't just some random Swedish "import" that Burke brought in to lure Gustavsson. Wallin has size, skill, good two way play, is somewhat physical I beleive, and I've also heard he was good at faceoffs.

Wallin brings more character and leadership to the leafs lineup, and his two way play is much needed. Like Burke said, He is a Pahlson (sp?) type player.


The fact that you said that he was a Swedish Import that doesn't have much of a future on the leafs loses a lot of your credibility, and shows how Biased you are towards The 4th/3rd line centerman, John Mitchell.
I never proposed that Mitchell would be our 2nd line centerman, so saying that has no relevance here.

Yes, Mitchell is a 3rd/4th centerman... and we happen to be talking about who will start as the 3rd and 4th centerman. Wallin, Primeau and Mayers also happen to be 3rd/4th centermen. Do you disagree?

Wallin was signed from the SEL. He is therefore a Swedish import. This isn't a slight, it is a fact. Whether or not he is in the future of the Leafs depends on his play, I suppose. However, he's 29 and will only ever be (at best) a good 3rd line center. He wasn't signed to a long-term deal for a reason. Don't get too caught up in the Pahlsson comparison, Wallin isn't Pahlsson, and Burke was merely attempting to justify his signing. So, do you think that Wallin is part of Burke's long-term plan on the Leafs, or what?

Biased towards Mitchell? Yah, I suppose. I don't really understand your bias against him though. Lets break this down and just compare the 4 players in question straight up.

First, Mitchell (24) was better than Mayers (34) last season - no doubt about that.

Second, Mitchell was also better than Primeau (33) last season. Moreover, Primeau has played 67 games in the last two seasons (has 14 points). Mitchell played 76 games last season and had 29 points.

Third, Mitchell (at 24 remember) has 57 more games in the NHL than Rickard Wallin (29). Thus, Mitchell has proven more at the NHL level that Wallin has. You give the impression that it is obvious that Wallin is better than Mitchell (presumably based on Burke's comments about him), but if he hasn't played in the NHL for 6 years, why do you give Wallin the benefit of the doubt?

One of these players played good in the NHL as a rookie last season, and one played good in the SEL as a veteran. How exactly do I lose credibility by thinking that Mitchell should be higher on the depth chart than Wallin?

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07-28-2009, 01:54 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by embracedbias View Post
I never proposed that Mitchell would be our 2nd line centerman, so saying that has no relevance here.

Yes, Mitchell is a 3rd/4th centerman... and we happen to be talking about who will start as the 3rd and 4th centerman. Wallin, Primeau and Mayers also happen to be 3rd/4th centermen. Do you disagree?

Wallin was signed from the SEL. He is therefore a Swedish import. This isn't a slight, it is a fact. Whether or not he is in the future of the Leafs depends on his play, I suppose. However, he's 29 and will only ever be (at best) a good 3rd line center. He wasn't signed to a long-term deal for a reason. Don't get too caught up in the Pahlsson comparison, Wallin isn't Pahlsson, and Burke was merely attempting to justify his signing. So, do you think that Wallin is part of Burke's long-term plan on the Leafs, or what?

Biased towards Mitchell? Yah, I suppose. I don't really understand your bias against him though. Lets break this down and just compare the 4 players in question straight up.

First, Mitchell (24) was better than Mayers (34) last season - no doubt about that.

Second, Mitchell was also better than Primeau (33) last season. Moreover, Primeau has played 67 games in the last two seasons (has 14 points). Mitchell played 76 games last season and had 29 points.

Third, Mitchell (at 24 remember) has 57 more games in the NHL than Rickard Wallin (29). Thus, Mitchell has proven more at the NHL level that Wallin has. You give the impression that it is obvious that Wallin is better than Mitchell (presumably based on Burke's comments about him), but if he hasn't played in the NHL for 6 years, why do you give Wallin the benefit of the doubt?

One of these players played good in the NHL as a rookie last season, and one played good in the SEL as a veteran. How exactly do I lose credibility by thinking that Mitchell should be higher on the depth chart than Wallin?
First of all, I never said YOU proposed him as a second line centerman. I siad that I've seen people do that, and I though it was extremely funny.

He wasn't signed to the leafs long term for a few reasons.
1) Its kind of like a tryout out. If he performs the way he has in the past, he will be able to earn himself another contract.
2) Wallin doesn't want to be left in the minors IF he doesn't make the club. So the 1 year deal will let him leave.
3) The fact that its a one year deal gives Burke options for what he can do for the future.

How am I being "biased against him". Mitchell is a 4th line centerman, with 3rd line potential. Wallin's game is more well rounded at this point.... but he does have 5
extra years on Mitchell. Its going to be interesting to see how this all turns out, but I fail to see how I've been "Biased against him".


Mitchell was given TONS of oppertunities last year. Wilson loves this kid.... that could be why he appears to be better.... but he isn't too much better than Mayers are this point. Does he have potential to be a lot better, yes. But is he right now? Not by much.


Mitchell played for a much worse team in the NHL than Wallin did to start things off. Second Wallin has shown more as a Pro than Mitchell has.... (You see how people can twist things like this, two can play at this game). Wallin was a captain. He has lead his team in points.... He had a great stint in the NHL, but the depth of the Minnesota roster kept him out of the NHL. There was little to no depth last season for Mitchell to compete with. Wallin has better size than Mitchell, and he is better in many areas.




You said that Wallin didn't have a future with the Leafs.... that is far from true. Burke wouldn't sign a player for the sake of signing a player. He wouldn't have taken the Captain of a Profesional team, and their leading point scorer for Nothing....

At this point, Its difficult to say who will be better next season. Wallin vs. Mitchell. It will be interesting. But to totally rule Wallin out, and say that Mitchell is clearly better is absurd and simply not fair.

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07-28-2009, 02:01 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by bobermay View Post
At this point, Its difficult to say who will be better next season. Wallin vs. Mitchell. It will be interesting. But to totally rule Wallin out, and say that Mitchell is clearly better is absurd and simply not fair.
One is an NHL player and one is trying to be after already flunking out once.

If you have Mitchell labeled as a 4th liner with 3rd line potential you clearly have no idea what you are looking at.

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07-28-2009, 02:15 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by bobermay View Post
He wasn't signed to the leafs long term for a few reasons.
1) Its kind of like a tryout out. If he performs the way he has in the past, he will be able to earn himself another contract.
2) Wallin doesn't want to be left in the minors IF he doesn't make the club. So the 1 year deal will let him leave.
3) The fact that its a one year deal gives Burke options for what he can do for the future.

How am I being "biased against him". Mitchell is a 4th line centerman, with 3rd line potential. Wallin's game is more well rounded at this point.... but he does have 5
extra years on Mitchell. Its going to be interesting to see how this all turns out, but I fail to see how I've been "Biased against him".

Mitchell was given TONS of oppertunities last year. Wilson loves this kid.... that could be why he appears to be better.... but he isn't too much better than Mayers are this point. Does he have potential to be a lot better, yes. But is he right now? Not by much.

Mitchell played for a much worse team in the NHL than Wallin did to start things off. Second Wallin has shown more as a Pro than Mitchell has.... (You see how people can twist things like this, two can play at this game). Wallin was a captain. He has lead his team in points.... He had a great stint in the NHL, but the depth of the Minnesota roster kept him out of the NHL. There was little to no depth last season for Mitchell to compete with. Wallin has better size than Mitchell, and he is better in many areas.

You said that Wallin didn't have a future with the Leafs.... that is far from true. Burke wouldn't sign a player for the sake of signing a player. He wouldn't have taken the Captain of a Profesional team, and their leading point scorer for Nothing....

At this point, Its difficult to say who will be better next season. Wallin vs. Mitchell. It will be interesting. But to totally rule Wallin out, and say that Mitchell is clearly better is absurd and simply not fair.
Wallin could play himself into Burke's future plans. This doesn't really matter much in terms of this argument, though, because at this point in time Wallin is not a part of Burke's future plans. You said it yourself, Wallin is on sort of like a tryout. Right now, he's just a big question mark.

Mitchell, on the other hand, had his tryout last season, and based on Burke's comments about him, it is clear that he impressed management enough to safely be considered a part of the future plans of this team. I should point out that Mitchell played himself onto the team. You make it sound like he was given ice time simply by virtue of his relationship with RW. By all accounts, he earned it... something that Wallin has yet to accomplish at the NHL level.

I don't know why you keep pointing out that Mitchell is a 4th line centerman with 3rd line potential (Mitchell played on the 3rd line for much of the season last year, but whatever). Wallin is in the same position. In fact, being 5 years older, he is expected to be better than Mitchell. We aren't going to know which is better until this season starts, but at this point in time Mitchell should get the benefit of the doubt because he's the one who has proven himself at the NHL level. I fail to see how this makes him overrated (which is what started this conversation). Then again, you are the same guy who thinks that White is overrated, so perhaps you just don't have that great of a grasp on the concept (no offense).

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07-28-2009, 02:30 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by embracedbias View Post
Wallin could play himself into Burke's future plans. This doesn't really matter much in terms of this argument, though, because at this point in time Wallin is not a part of Burke's future plans. You said it yourself, Wallin is on sort of like a tryout. Right now, he's just a big question mark.

Mitchell, on the other hand, had his tryout last season, and based on Burke's comments about him, it is clear that he impressed management enough to safely be considered a part of the future plans of this team. I should point out that Mitchell played himself onto the team. You make it sound like he was given ice time simply by virtue of his relationship with RW. By all accounts, he earned it... something that Wallin has yet to accomplish at the NHL level.

I don't know why you keep pointing out that Mitchell is a 4th line centerman with 3rd line potential (Mitchell played on the 3rd line for much of the season last year, but whatever). Wallin is in the same position. In fact, being 5 years older, he is expected to be better than Mitchell. We aren't going to know which is better until this season starts, but at this point in time Mitchell should get the benefit of the doubt because he's the one who has proven himself at the NHL level. I fail to see how this makes him overrated (which is what started this conversation). Then again, you are the same guy who thinks that White is overrated, so perhaps you just don't have that great of a grasp on the concept (no offense).
If Wallin wasn't a part of Burkes Plans, WHY THE HELL would he sign him? I said that before..... Why would he sign a Professional team's Captain, Leading Goalscorer, and Best Forward if he didn't have a plan for him. Everyone is on a tryout.... nobody is garunteed a spot. The ONE of the many reasons that Wallin got a 1 year contract was because it acts as a tryout.... yes, but there is many more reasons.

And yes, A lot of the reason why Mitchell was given his icetime was his relationship with Ron Wilson. Its no secret. Now, did Mitchell do a good job when he was given the opertunities? Yeah, Sure.... but by no means was he great at what he was doing.


I said Mitchell's oppertunity to make the NHL was much easier than Wallins.... nothign wrong with that statement. Wallin earned his 20 games.... He played okay, not well. His oppertunity to earn his spot in the NHL has come again, and IMO, he will make it.


Mitchell did play 3rd line center for a bit of the season.... correct. But it was on a non contending team. If people are pegging Stajan to be a 3rd line centerman, there is NO WAY that Mitchell is one too.


Mitchell has proven to be a 4th line centerman on an NHL team. Very good!
Wallin has proven to be a 1st line centerman, captain, leading goal scorer as a profesional in one of the top 3/4 leagues in the world.

Which one is better? I guess we'll have to see, but you really can't give Mitchell the Benefit of the doubt.


White IS overrated. He's a #4 defencman who has proven that he could become a #3 defencman. People are saying he can take over Kaberle as a puck moving defencman, which he simply can't. I think people like White's Mustache so much, that they were blinded by White's actual play.

Is White a good player? YES. Will he make the team this year? I don't know... it will be awfully close between him and Van Ryn IMO.

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07-28-2009, 02:32 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
One is an NHL player and one is trying to be after already flunking out once.

If you have Mitchell labeled as a 4th liner with 3rd line potential you clearly have no idea what you are looking at.
Holy crap, not another one


Are you saying that mitchell can become a 2nd line centerman!?!

I find it embarrasing how Leaf fans twist things to make thier favourites look good.

Look at my previous post.

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07-28-2009, 02:43 PM
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Both are terrible hockey players.
Agree 100%

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07-28-2009, 02:46 PM
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both are useless.

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07-28-2009, 02:48 PM
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Thanks for getting back on topic guys. People have been comparing Primeau to May. Whose the better one when both are healthy?

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07-28-2009, 02:49 PM
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Holy crap, not another one


Are you saying that mitchell can become a 2nd line centerman!?!

I find it embarrasing how Leaf fans twist things to make thier favourites look good.

Look at my previous post.
Mitchell is a favourite because he is a good hockey player and for no other reason and I have no problem saying he has top 6 potential.

You state that Mitchell is a favourite of Ron Wilson's. Why would that be?

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07-28-2009, 02:52 PM
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Thanks for getting back on topic guys. People have been comparing Primeau to May. Whose the better one when both are healthy?
Primeau because of his PK and faceoff skills.

Primeau vs Mayers: Equal. Both are almost clones of each other.

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07-28-2009, 03:00 PM
  #42
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I remember Mayers got a lot of breakaway's but almost never scored on them. You would see the outlet pass and see your jersey color alone and flying into the offensive zone and your hit with that first second of excitement until your brain processes who has actually has the puck. Then before he can even shoot you just calm back down and say "oh, its Mayers" and sure enough (a freak goal aside) he would blow it. What a waste of positioning and speed. Seemed to do that all the time. Usually shorthanded. If I remember correctly, he is pretty good on the PK though.

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07-28-2009, 03:08 PM
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In NHL 09, Mayers is the first line right winger.
In NHL 09, Mayers is the highest rated forward on the team.

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07-28-2009, 03:15 PM
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If Wallin wasn't a part of Burkes Plans, WHY THE HELL would he sign him? I said that before..... Why would he sign a Professional team's Captain, Leading Goalscorer, and Best Forward if he didn't have a plan for him. Everyone is on a tryout.... nobody is garunteed a spot.
No one is guaranteed a spot, sure. That doesn't mean that everyone is on a tryout. Is Schenn on a tryout?

Are you trying to say that every player that Burke signs is in his future (i.e., long-term) plan for this team? Is Orr in Burkes future plans? No. He may stick around for a while, but he is a player that is easily replaced. Perhaps we have different definitions of "future plans". I think that for someone to be in Burke's future plans, he has to be a part of the core of the team. As far as I can tell, Wallin is no more a part of Burke's future plan than Frogren was for Fletcher.

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And yes, A lot of the reason why Mitchell was given his icetime was his relationship with Ron Wilson. Its no secret. Now, did Mitchell do a good job when he was given the opertunities? Yeah, Sure.... but by no means was he great at what he was doing.
I didn't say he was great. I said that he played well pretty consistently at the NHL level - something that Wallin hasn't done.

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Originally Posted by bobermay View Post
Mitchell has proven to be a 4th line centerman on an NHL team. Very good!
Wallin has proven to be a 1st line centerman, captain, leading goal scorer as a profesional in one of the top 3/4 leagues in the world.

Which one is better? I guess we'll have to see, but you really can't give Mitchell the Benefit of the doubt.
Doesn't matter. SEL/KHL/etc. success does not necessarily translate to NHL success. The leagues are very different, and until Wallin proves himself at the NHL level, he is unproven (obviously). So yes, you can give Mitchell the benefit of the doubt.

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White IS overrated. He's a #4 defencman who has proven that he could become a #3 defencman. People are saying he can take over Kaberle as a puck moving defencman, which he simply can't. I think people like White's Mustache so much, that they were blinded by White's actual play.

Is White a good player? YES. Will he make the team this year? I don't know... it will be awfully close between him and Van Ryn IMO.
I don't want to take this thread too far off topic (actually, I could give a **** - hockey talk is hockey talk), but White led all of the Leafs defenseman in ES TOI and he was our only + defenseman. He doesn't have the skill to replace Kaberle, of course, but he played better last season than you give him credit for. Van Ryn played excellent when he was healthy last season as well, so if they are both playing up to that level, then (baring a trade) our bottom pairing will be White - Van Ryn. I've seen you put XLB in over White... which, quite frankly, is absurd.

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07-28-2009, 03:23 PM
  #45
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No one is guaranteed a spot, sure. That doesn't mean that everyone is on a tryout. Is Schenn on a tryout?

Are you trying to say that every player that Burke signs is in his future (i.e., long-term) plan for this team? Is Orr in Burkes future plans? No. He may stick around for a while, but he is a player that is easily replaced. Perhaps we have different definitions of "future plans". I think that for someone to be in Burke's future plans, he has to be a part of the core of the team. As far as I can tell, Wallin is no more a part of Burke's future plan than Frogren was for Fletcher.



I didn't say he was great. I said that he played well pretty consistently at the NHL level - something that Wallin hasn't done.



Doesn't matter. SEL/KHL/etc. success does not necessarily translate to NHL success. The leagues are very different, and until Wallin proves himself at the NHL level, he is unproven (obviously). So yes, you can give Mitchell the benefit of the doubt.



I don't want to take this thread too far off topic (actually, I could give a **** - hockey talk is hockey talk), but White led all of the Leafs defenseman in ES TOI and he was our only + defenseman. He doesn't have the skill to replace Kaberle, of course, but he played better last season than you give him credit for. Van Ryn played excellent when he was healthy last season as well, so if they are both playing up to that level, then (baring a trade) our bottom pairing will be White - Van Ryn. I've seen you put XLB in over White... which, quite frankly, is absurd.
Okay... we can continue this in another topic, but clearly your not gettin what I'm saying.

Wallin was an elite player in a lower league. So to say that Mitchell has proven more at the NHL level so he he MUST be better doesn't really make sense.

As for XLB going ahead of White.... YES. It Makes sense. First of all, Burke likes his Plumber defencman. He has already said that. Second of all, XLB isn't horrible. Is he worse than White and Van RYn, yes. BUT he will make the leafs.


Saying XLB won't make the 3rd pairing is like saying Mayers, Orr AND Primeau won't make the 4th line because Bozak, Kadri, Hanson, Stalberg and Tlusty are all clearly more skilled. I just doesn't work that way.

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07-28-2009, 03:41 PM
  #46
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Okay... we can continue this in another topic, but clearly your not gettin what I'm saying.

Wallin was an elite player in a lower league. So to say that Mitchell has proven more at the NHL level so he he MUST be better doesn't really make sense.

As for XLB going ahead of White.... YES. It Makes sense. First of all, Burke likes his Plumber defencman. He has already said that. Second of all, XLB isn't horrible. Is he worse than White and Van RYn, yes. BUT he will make the leafs.


Saying XLB won't make the 3rd pairing is like saying Mayers, Orr AND Primeau won't make the 4th line because Bozak, Kadri, Hanson, Stalberg and Tlusty are all clearly more skilled. I just doesn't work that way.
I never said that Mitchell MUST be better than Wallin - I never even said that he was better than Wallin at all. What I said is that Mitchell has proven more at the NHL, and therefore you shouldn't assume that Mitchell's spot on the roster will be taken by Wallin (which I assume is what you meant when you said that Mitchell will be converted to the wing) because Wallin was an "elite player" in the SEL.

XLB is going to play over White simply because Burke likes a certain mold of defenseman for the bottom pairing? I think you are underestimating the difference in play between these two players. The only areas where XLB is better than White is open-ice hits and fighting. Neither of these things are necessary prerequisites to playing in the "plumber" defenseman. White can hit, block shots, play good defensively, play on the PP, play on the PK, etc. I think his versatility makes him a much better candidate for the "plumber" defenseman role.

Your analogy is false. You used players who haven't proven anything at the NHL level. A better analogy would be if the Leafs went out and signed two good centermen. If this happened, then Stajan would have lost his spot in the top 9 of the Leafs. Would you assume that Primeau/Mayers would play ahead of Stajan simply because they fit the mold of a prototypical 4th liner better than Stajan does?

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07-28-2009, 04:13 PM
  #47
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we are analyzing mitchell? mayers and primeau? is that what we are doing? and people are right into it? c'mon leafers!!!! please...close..this...thread.

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07-28-2009, 06:43 PM
  #48
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It is about helping...

Mayers and Mitchell smell the coffee.Neither of them are guaranteed a job next year.They will need to play for their lives as both played unimpressively last year.Burke doesn't just give jobs because the leafs drafted them.Mitchell is in danger and Mayers is most likely toast.The country club is closed,four years without playoffs and they want million$ in a recession.Play well or be gone,nice simple choices.

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07-28-2009, 07:20 PM
  #49
Hurt
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Originally Posted by noobman View Post
In NHL 09, Mayers is the highest rated forward on the team.
Made me laugh too.

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Old
07-28-2009, 08:21 PM
  #50
Arian
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Originally Posted by Th4thurt View Post
Made me laugh too.
Poise really inflates your overall rating. He has good hitting and skating I guess in that game but that's about it. His poise brings his overall rating up a lot.

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