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Mike Grier interested about Wings, agent says

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Old
07-28-2009, 01:30 PM
  #26
zecke26
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
I still don't get how Grier and Samuelsson are comparable, their play styles are completely different.
pfft...sammy is as tough as somone can be.

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07-28-2009, 01:43 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
I still don't get how Grier and Samuelsson are comparable, their play styles are completely different.
It's not so much that their styles are the same, but that they're both middling-ish players who might come at a very good cost-to-value ratio. Sammy's cost was exceeding his value on the Wings, hence he left. Grier at anything around $1 MM or so would be a great value. He was paid $1.75 MM last year however. He could probably easily get 15 G per season, maybe a smidge more if he can gel with the Wings system.

Holland did want a guy at around the 15 goals/season mark, so in that sense, Grier would fit the bill.

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07-28-2009, 02:06 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by detredWINgs View Post
Why would Grier sign for 500k and make himself the ninth least paid player in the NHL, including no-namers, career minor leaguers, and entry-level nobodies?

I don't care how many steps Grier has taken back, when folks like Nichol, Rupp, Hnidy, Hordichuk, Godard - the least goes on and on - are all making at least 750k, you don't take a pathetic 500k just because you're born in Detroit (but not raised here) and because Detroit wins a lot of games.
Grier has made nearly $12m in salary over his career Linky

It is not at all unreasonable that he might pass up on a relatively small sum of money (difference between 500k and 750k) to play in Detroit for two major reasons. 1. He can win a Cup here, something he doesn't have. How many more chances will he have at it? 2. A one year deal here might increase his value next summer, should he go on to have a good season.

Grier is taking a big hit to his salary. Nobody is going to give him the $1.7m he was making. The difference between what I'm suggesting we offer and what you're suggesting is "more reasonable" is quite small, not some big gap as you're trying to paint it.

If I'm Holland, who was fully capable of "insulting" Bertuzzi, Hossa and Samuelsson with offers well below their market value, then all I'm offering Grier's way is a deal for the minimum. Take it or leave it. It's his choice.

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Originally Posted by Winger98 View Post
An especially needless risk if there is solid vet depth available to be signed. I'd sign some vets to fill out the bottom six (Grier, Peca, Goc), leave Gator and the other "Close but Not There" guys in GR for the year. When the playoffs hit, we do what we've done the past couple of years - take the two squads and make the best team possible. Plus, it'll help our depth throughout the year to have ready fill-ins waiting in GR in case of injuries.
The regular season is nothing more than an extended preseason. Newsflash - The Red Wings will make the 2010 playoffs! It's a done deal. So who cares if a player getting 8 or 10 minutes a night has a bad game here or there as he's learning? It won't change anything in the big picture.

Don't you think that Helm would have been even more effective and comfortable if he'd gotten in more games in Detroit? What about Ericsson? Both were regulars in the playoffs despite hardly playing with the big club. I suspect Abdelkader will be a regular next post season, brought in as Helm was.

With those facts in mind, I'm fully in favor of giving Abdelkader a shot as a regular. Plus, we can always add depth at the deadline if needed (fourth liners don't cost much in trade).

Secondly, Leino might not play in the bottom six. That would make Helm the only "rookie" on the 3rd or 4th line, and he's technically not a rookie with over 40 games of NHL Playoff experience.

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07-28-2009, 03:27 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doublejack View Post
The regular season is nothing more than an extended preseason. Newsflash - The Red Wings will make the 2010 playoffs! It's a done deal. So who cares if a player getting 8 or 10 minutes a night has a bad game here or there as he's learning? It won't change anything in the big picture.

Don't you think that Helm would have been even more effective and comfortable if he'd gotten in more games in Detroit? What about Ericsson? Both were regulars in the playoffs despite hardly playing with the big club. I suspect Abdelkader will be a regular next post season, brought in as Helm was.
With those facts in mind, I'm fully in favor of giving Abdelkader a shot as a regular. Plus, we can always add depth at the deadline if needed (fourth liners don't cost much in trade).

Secondly, Leino might not play in the bottom six. That would make Helm the only "rookie" on the 3rd or 4th line, and he's technically not a rookie with over 40 games of NHL Playoff experience.
Nope and nope. They stepped in and looked plenty comfortable and were effective in their roles. I think the top minutes they were getting in GR, every night, was more beneficial than the handful of minutes they would have gotten in Detroit. And I think it'll be more beneficial for Gator to get top minutes in GR rather than the 8-10 minutes he'd get in Detroit.

And no one is saying the regular season is overly important. But it's long and players wear down. Depth is key. We're a deeper team with Gator in GR and quality NHLers signed to fill up the bottom six. And if we're relying on Leino in the top6, then there's more of an argument for adding some stable vet depth.

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07-28-2009, 03:32 PM
  #30
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The difference, DJ, is that if you sign the vets you have them and the younger players in the organization the whole year. That's depth. Picking up a 4th liner at the deadline not only costs the cap space, but something you're trading to acquire that player. Even if that's 'just' a 7th rounder... Detroit's had some decent luck with those. Why throw that pick away when you could get a guy just as good (or better), have them longer, and not have to worry about them having to pick up a whole new system in three weeks?

As far as what Grier 'should' make... enh. Anywhere between 750k-1.25 wouldn't bug me, as long as it's just a one-year deal. Bertuzzi's between 1.25-2 mil.

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07-28-2009, 03:44 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Winger98 View Post
Nope and nope. They stepped in and looked plenty comfortable and were effective in their roles. I think the top minutes they were getting in GR, every night, was more beneficial than the handful of minutes they would have gotten in Detroit. And I think it'll be more beneficial for Gator to get top minutes in GR rather than the 8-10 minutes he'd get in Detroit.

And no one is saying the regular season is overly important. But it's long and players wear down. Depth is key. We're a deeper team with Gator in GR and quality NHLers signed to fill up the bottom six. And if we're relying on Leino in the top6, then there's more of an argument for adding some stable vet depth.

I don't thinks the Wings will "rely" on Leino for anything, let alone a top 6 role.
I'd be surprised if he was more than a 3/4 line guy with 2nd unit PP time.

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07-28-2009, 04:36 PM
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Quick... someone pay Leino 3 mil a year!

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07-28-2009, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
Quick... someone pay Leino 3 mil a year!
3-4mill !

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07-28-2009, 05:07 PM
  #34
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Great heart and soul guy, but he's lost a step or two over the years.

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07-28-2009, 05:08 PM
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I think a line of Leino - Helm - Grier would be one of the better 3rd lines in the game. That's at least 150+ hits out of Helm and Grier (Helm might get close to 200) and Leino's offense might flourish.

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07-28-2009, 05:13 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
I think a line of Leino - Helm - Grier would be one of the better 3rd lines in the game. That's at least 150+ hits out of Helm and Grier (Helm might get close to 200) and Leino's offense might flourish.
i'm not sure how leino and helm fit together at NHL level. leino needs someone to play with and helm...well, he hits and skates. but he has limited offensive skills. he's no playmaker.
and the skating difference between both could be another problem.

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07-28-2009, 05:18 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zecke26 View Post
i'm not sure how leino and helm fit together at NHL level. leino needs someone to play with and helm...well, he hits and skates. but he has limited offensive skills. he's no playmaker.
and the skating difference between both could be another problem.
Could put Cleary there and see how Leino works out with Zetterberg.

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07-28-2009, 05:30 PM
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Could put Cleary there and see how Leino works out with Zetterberg.
This issue largely depends on what Leino's game actually is. If he's a pass-first guy at the NHL level, then being on a line without a finisher doesn't make any sense.

If he develops a nose for converting turned over pucks into scoring chances, then being on a line with a hawker like Helm and a basher like Grier makes a lot of sense.

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07-28-2009, 05:32 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by doublejack View Post
Grier has made nearly $12m in salary over his career Linky

It is not at all unreasonable that he might pass up on a relatively small sum of money (difference between 500k and 750k) to play in Detroit for two major reasons. 1. He can win a Cup here, something he doesn't have. How many more chances will he have at it? 2. A one year deal here might increase his value next summer, should he go on to have a good season.

Grier is taking a big hit to his salary. Nobody is going to give him the $1.7m he was making. The difference between what I'm suggesting we offer and what you're suggesting is "more reasonable" is quite small, not some big gap as you're trying to paint it.

If I'm Holland, who was fully capable of "insulting" Bertuzzi, Hossa and Samuelsson with offers well below their market value, then all I'm offering Grier's way is a deal for the minimum. Take it or leave it. It's his choice.
You're right. Because clearly the real world is an NHL video game, and the 250k that is a "relatively small sum of money" can only buy you 4-5 luxury cars, a 2nd home, or pay for the college education of all your kids. After tax.

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07-28-2009, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
I think a line of Leino - Helm - Grier would be one of the better 3rd lines in the game. That's at least 150+ hits out of Helm and Grier (Helm might get close to 200) and Leino's offense might flourish.
Helm is gonna bust if he gets anywhere near 200 hits.

Heater, you've always been one to be cautious about rooks in the lineup. Now you're saying two rookies and 34 year old career checker will be one of the better third lines in the league?

That's awfully ambitious.

I think Helm is going to disappoint people. And not because he's going to bad. He's just not going to be able to maintain his playoff pace.

His regular season in Grand Rapids was nothing to write home about.

I think a fair expectation for Helm is to bounce back and forth between the third and fourth line.

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07-28-2009, 05:43 PM
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Could put Cleary there and see how Leino works out with Zetterberg.
this is exactly what i'm thinking about. leino models a lot after zetterberg, but the difference is that Z is more of a goal scorer. but both aren't the best skaters and both do amazing things with covering the puck along the boards. not to mention that leino could learn something from Z due to their similar style.

cleary - helm - grier sounds funny.

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07-28-2009, 05:46 PM
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I think a fair expectation for Helm is to bounce back and forth between the third and fourth line.
read the point predictions about helm. some think he cracks 40.

i'd be happy if he gets 20. i don't think he has much offensive upside in the NHL. his game is crash and bang. he's a mixture between draper and maltby maybe. people should try to remember how long draper took to get his level to where it was important.

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07-28-2009, 05:47 PM
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Helm is gonna bust if he gets anywhere near 200 hits.

Heater, you've always been one to be cautious about rooks in the lineup. Now you're saying two rookies and 34 year old career checker will be one of the better third lines in the league?
True but then again we don't know what qualifies a hit in the NHL. 2.5 hits/game isn't exactly crazy considering his role and play style.

Like I said, if not Leino I could see Cleary making them really effective.

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07-28-2009, 06:09 PM
  #44
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I don't thinks the Wings will "rely" on Leino for anything, let alone a top 6 role.
I'd be surprised if he was more than a 3/4 line guy with 2nd unit PP time.
I don't think so, either, and that's pretty much the role I expect him to play, too. injuries or line juggling could find him on the "second" line but he's not going to be a guy we lean on. Same with Helm, who I'm expecting to be a bit of an energy guy with an emerging defensive game. As long as he hits, skates and continues to get better defensively, I'll be happy.

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07-28-2009, 06:44 PM
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I'd take Grier over Bertuzzi at any price

Besides, I still expect Bertuzzi to land in Toronto since Burke loves his castoffs.

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07-28-2009, 06:51 PM
  #46
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Que? I've always thought of Grier as the defensive Tomas Holmstrom.
What? I always thought of him as a offensive Lilja

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07-28-2009, 07:39 PM
  #47
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His regular season in Grand Rapids was nothing to write home about.
13 and 24 in 55 games from a mostly defensive forward is 'nothing to write home about'? Sure, it's not an amazing season or anything like that, but it's still a pretty nice accomplishment and certainly an imporvement over his first AHL year, which is what you want to see.

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I think a fair expectation for Helm is to bounce back and forth between the third and fourth line.
Tin, Helm's a legit 3rd liner in the NHL, right now. He played over 12 minutes a night pretty much right off the bus from GR, and that was in the playoffs. During the regular season when each game isn't as strictly critical as they are in the postseason he's going to average rather more than that. He'll probably be right around 14 minutes a night.

Now, I think it's highly doubtful he goes much beyond that until he develops a fairly significant NHL offensive game, either as a passer or as a quick-strike scorer, but for Helm to be on the 4th line for any significant period of time would indicate to me his game has gone back a step.

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07-28-2009, 08:26 PM
  #48
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13 and 24 in 55 games from a mostly defensive forward is 'nothing to write home about'? Sure, it's not an amazing season or anything like that, but it's still a pretty nice accomplishment and certainly an imporvement over his first AHL year, which is what you want to see.



Tin, Helm's a legit 3rd liner in the NHL, right now. He played over 12 minutes a night pretty much right off the bus from GR, and that was in the playoffs. During the regular season when each game isn't as strictly critical as they are in the postseason he's going to average rather more than that. He'll probably be right around 14 minutes a night.

Now, I think it's highly doubtful he goes much beyond that until he develops a fairly significant NHL offensive game, either as a passer or as a quick-strike scorer, but for Helm to be on the 4th line for any significant period of time would indicate to me his game has gone back a step.
Helm is an energy liner and not a defensive forward. He's great at skating and hitting for 10 minutes a night, in the playoffs.

Can he do it for 82 games? He's got to prove that. I'm thinking he's going to take a few steps back and forward throughout the season, as he adjusts to the toughness of the NHL over the long haul (He took some nasty hits in the playoffs. In the regular season, when NHLers show less discipline, he's going to have to answer for his aggressive play).

But that's just being an energy line guy.
And not a good two way guy. Because Helm wasn't very good in his own end. He gets lost. When his line was in their own end, they looked bad.
When they were cycling in the other end, they looked good.


Last edited by Heaton: 07-28-2009 at 09:38 PM.
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07-28-2009, 08:39 PM
  #49
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Him and Helm on the same line would be a good checking line. I just don't know how well he would fit in the system. It would be interesting to see him play for the Wings, though.

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07-28-2009, 09:09 PM
  #50
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Him and Helm on the same line would be a good checking line. I just don't know how well he would fit in the system. It would be interesting to see him play for the Wings, though.
The Sharks have been a fairly skilled team since the addition of Thornton, more or less, and he did play under McLellan last year, who implemented a semi-Wings-based system.

Good skaters who have a defensive mindset generally fit well into the Wings system. Its the skilled additions that I worry about more.

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