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Mike Grier interested about Wings, agent says

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Old
07-28-2009, 09:24 PM
  #51
Ti-girl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Helm is an energy liner and not a defensive forward. He's great at skating and hitting for 10 minutes a night, in the playoffs.

Can he do it for 82 games? He's got to prove that. I'm thinking he's going to take a few steps back and forward throughout the season, as he adjusts to the toughness of the NHL over the long haul (He took some nasty hits in the playoffs. In the regular season, when NHLers show less discipline, he's going to have to answer for his aggressive play).

But that's just being an energy line guy.
And not a good two way guy. Because Helm wasn't very good in his own end. He gets lost. When his line was in their own end, they looked bad.
When they were cycling in the other end, they looked good.
Helm was also a 22-23 year old rookie. The regular season allows players to adjust and learn their defensive responsabilites. It's a little unjust judging our rookies on how they play during the playoffs.

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Last edited by Heaton: 07-28-2009 at 09:38 PM.
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Old
07-28-2009, 09:27 PM
  #52
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Add some speed, I'd like it. True, the black fanbase would grow. The only thing is Datsyuk won't be able to look at him without laughing after this...


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Old
07-29-2009, 06:15 AM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Helm is an energy liner and not a defensive forward.


Granted, he's not the second coming of Joe Nieuwendyk or anything, but Jesus Christ, Tin.

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He's great at skating and hitting for 10 minutes a night, in the playoffs.
Except, you know, it was 12 minutes a night. In the playoffs. Do you think Babcock is more or less stingy with minutes to non-core guys in the playoffs as opposed to the regular season?

Quote:
And not a good two way guy. Because Helm wasn't very good in his own end. He gets lost. When his line was in their own end, they looked bad.
When they were cycling in the other end, they looked good.
As opposed to those who, when the other team was cycling in Detroit's end, looked good?

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07-29-2009, 06:49 AM
  #54
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HD, the way helm plays, do you think he can do that 82 games? he was nice in POs, but not every game. he's young. i think he won't get 14min per night every game.
in the AHL helm was all about streaks. he was hot and cold. and that's ok for a young guy who plays like that. so once he's cold, babcock will give him a rest is my guess.
helm can play as energy forward as much as defensive forward. the future should be the latter. but at the moment he's somewhere in between.

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07-29-2009, 07:21 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post


Granted, he's not the second coming of Joe Nieuwendyk or anything, but Jesus Christ, Tin.

Look, Jordin Tootoo is a good energy line guy. But his defense isn't where it needs to be.
Skating hard and hitting everything isn't "defense."
Helms defense isn't very good.


Quote:
As opposed to those who, when the other team was cycling in Detroit's end, looked good?
As opposed to others, who were much less likely to get caught running around in their own end.
Helm's lines looked OK in their own end against less skilled lines. But on the road, Helm's line got owned an awful lot.

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07-29-2009, 08:13 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post

Look, Jordin Tootoo is a good energy line guy. But his defense isn't where it needs to be.
Skating hard and hitting everything isn't "defense."
Helms defense isn't very good.


You've now compared both Kyle Quincey (who couldn't beat out Derek Meech or Brett Lebda in tryouts) and Jordin Tootoo (a poor man's Kirk Maltby) to Darren Helm.

Best offseason ever. I think I'm almost glad Detroit didn't win the Cup now because there's no way this board would have been nearly as amusing if they had.

Unintentional stand-up routines aside, Helm's an above average defender (think 6 on a scale of 10) whose pretty strong forechecking (which, hello, is a fairly significant aspect of playing defensively, especially in a Wings system that focuses more on preventing a team from setting up pressure than it is designed to break an established cycle) makes him a very viable defensive player.

To reconnect this to the issue being discussed, this makes Helm significantly more than a guy who is going to bounce around between the 3rd and 4th lines. If he does end up on the 4th line, it'll be because his game has taken a step backwards. That's not impossible, given the sometimes tenuous nature of development with younger players, but since his value is based mostly on skating fast and being aggressive, I think those traits are much less likely to just disappear than those of other guys who are in the league based on offensive production, something that can vanish for any number of reasons.

That said, I anxiously await your next comparison of Darren Helm to some other non-descript NHL position player. Jared Boll? Brad Richardson? Matt Smaby?

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Old
07-29-2009, 08:30 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
I'd take Grier over Bertuzzi at any price

Besides, I still expect Bertuzzi to land in Toronto since Burke loves his castoffs.
I would like to see Bertuzzi come back, then my Bertuzzi jersey will be relevant again.

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07-29-2009, 08:40 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by zecke26 View Post
HD, the way helm plays, do you think he can do that 82 games? he was nice in POs, but not every game.
The problem I have with that pointing out that concern specifically with Helm, and it is a viable one, is that it's equally true of every player.

Can Nick Lidstrom play at his highest level every game for 82 games? Can Pavel Datsyuk? Can Rafalski? Can Osgood?

Obviously the answer in every case is no. I don't think Helm is going to play as well as he did in some playoff games 82 straight times in the regular season. There will be fatigue, injuries, possible regressions in his play, all kinds of stuff are possible explanations/reasons/excuses for that.

However, looking at what Helm is able to do when playing well, I think it's fairly safe to assume that even during stretches of play when he struggles he will always be able to provide speed and forechecking. That's the inherent safety of having a game focused more on hustle than it is on production.

As it happens, Babcock sort of likes speed and forechecking. That happy coincidence will serve Helm well with regards to how much IT he gets and when that IT occurs. I think Babcock won't hesitate to have Helm out there in late game situations.

Quote:
he's young. i think he won't get 14min per night every game.
in the AHL helm was all about streaks. he was hot and cold. and that's ok for a young guy who plays like that. so once he's cold, babcock will give him a rest is my guess.
helm can play as energy forward as much as defensive forward. the future should be the latter. but at the moment he's somewhere in between.
I think a lot of hockey fans get way too tied up with labels as a means of employing an inaccurate shorthand to describe a player, and then they end up trapped in a box of their own devising.

'Power forward', 'Energy line guy', 'defensive forward'... enh. I think Helm is going to play 70+ games and average 13:30-14:30 a night in total IT when it's all said and done, with probably 1 or 2 minutes a night of that coming on the PK. I think he's going to be effective in that role and be a positive difference maker for the Wings, although I doubt he'll be much of a point producer on his own, probably around 10 goals and 10-15 assists.

I am also pretty sure there are going to be periods of time where his head is up his ass and he gets benched for a period or a game here and there. That's part of being a guy in his first full NHL season.

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Old
07-29-2009, 08:44 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
As opposed to others, who were much less likely to get caught running around in their own end.
Helm's lines looked OK in their own end against less skilled lines. But on the road, Helm's line got owned an awful lot.
How many other 22-23 year olds were playing 14 minutes for the Wings?

And what I have bolded is the key. Helm's line. There were three of them on his line. Not just Helm.

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Old
07-29-2009, 09:18 AM
  #60
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Depends on what he's asking...

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Old
07-29-2009, 03:46 PM
  #61
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Leave Grier.... his best years are behind him, we'd be better off getting young guys with defensive skills that we can mould into the next Draper/Maltby type players. Darren Helm is a solid start, he'll easily replace Draper - when Draps does decide to call it a career - and be our #1 checking centre.

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Old
07-30-2009, 03:04 PM
  #62
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I would take him. From what I have heard he sounds like the definition of a "team guy". I think he would be a good fit for the Wings.

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Old
07-30-2009, 05:46 PM
  #63
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I'm actually more excited about the prospect of Grier now that I've had time to contemplate the Wings with Jason Williams or Petr Sykora.

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07-30-2009, 06:02 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by detredWINgs View Post
I'm actually more excited about the prospect of Grier now that I've had time to contemplate the Wings with Jason Williams or Petr Sykora.
One of those "it can't be worse" thoughts, eh?

Maybe Detroit should give Williams the # for Hudler's agent. Maybe convince him to play in the KHL.

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