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03-31-2004, 11:38 PM
  #1
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Goalie Rankings by Winning %

Goalies who have played at least 50 games:

1. Belfour -56.14%
2. Cloutier -52.63%
3. Khabibulin -51.85%, Raycroft -51.85%
5. Biron -50.98%
6. Nabokov -50.87%
7. Aebischer -50.82
8. Brodeur -50.68%
9. Turco -50.00%
10. Theodore -49.23%

We should be a playoff team, a comfortable one at that.

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04-01-2004, 07:25 AM
  #2
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At this point in time the Sabres are 10th in goals scored (217) and 23rd in goals against (213). So, you are right, we should be comfortably in the playoffs, but are not, thanks to the goaltending. You cannot allow 213 goals and expect to make the playoffs. No current playoff team has allowed more goals than the Sabres. But the Sabres have scored more goals than 7 of the 16 teams currently holding a playoff spot. If we miss the playoffs this year, you can point the finger directly at the goaltending, not the goalscorers, they're doing their jobs.


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04-01-2004, 07:38 AM
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Bah, this doesn't tell half the story...as in the first half when Biron was absolutely awful...the half that basically eliminated us from the playoffs.

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04-01-2004, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Takeo21
Bah, this doesn't tell half the story...as in the first half when Biron was absolutely awful...the half that basically eliminated us from the playoffs.
Don't you mean the half where all the goaltenders and the defence were playing absolutely awful? Not to mention the whole concept of team defence. I'm a Biron fan, but I don't think I'm being partial in this case. Miller didn't do much when he was up here and Noroneen had close to the same number of games as Biron in the first half of the season and he didn't win a lot of games even with a better GAA and save %.

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04-01-2004, 08:46 AM
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djhn579
Don't you mean the half where all the goaltenders and the defence were playing absolutely awful? Not to mention the whole concept of team defence. I'm a Biron fan, but I don't think I'm being partial in this case. Miller didn't do much when he was up here and Noroneen had close to the same number of games as Biron in the first half of the season and he didn't win a lot of games even with a better GAA and save %.
Our goaltending could have been better in the first half of the season, but it was still better then the defense was. Plus, I think that either Noronen or Biron would have done better if they were given more time and more confidence. Kind of like how Biron is doing now. And of course our defense is amazingly better now since the trade deadline. But lets not forget the way Biron has played lately. Last night against the Rangers was probably this defense's worst performance since acquiring Brown and Jillson, but Marty was just plain awesome. Yes he allowed 3 goals, but if you watched the game, you would know how many more thay should have gotten. The lowly Rangers got 40 shots on net, and plenty of them were quality, if not great, scoring chances. Yet, the Sabres and Biron still came up on top. Now let's go take it to the Leafs and Habs and root for the Canes and Flyers.

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04-01-2004, 09:19 AM
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This could be viewed as favouring Biron, but I really wonder how this season would have shaped up with Marty as the undisputed starter. Maybe the same but perhaps different than season's past.

Anyways it's clear to all of us that the defense in particular was pitiful for the first few months of the season.

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04-01-2004, 09:42 AM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fan-of-#9
This could be viewed as favouring Biron, but I really wonder how this season would have shaped up with Marty as the undisputed starter. Maybe the same but perhaps different than season's past.

Anyways it's clear to all of us that the defense in particular was pitiful for the first few months of the season.

Marty has had three years to become the undisputed starter. He's too inconsistent to ever be a number 1 goalie. How many games has he lost in the last five minutes? How many softies should he have stopped? Countless.

He's playing good now, and that's great, but why didn't he play like this all year? Ruff has given him countless opportunities to assume the #1 role and Marty has consistantly disappointed. His inconsistency is his downfall.

Like I said in my earlier post, you cannot allow 213 goals and expect to make the playoffs. However, you should be in a playoff spot when your team has scored the 10th most goals in the entire NHL. The blame almost entirely falls squarely on the goaltending.

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04-01-2004, 10:05 AM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sabrfan
Marty has had three years to become the undisputed starter. He's too inconsistent to ever be a number 1 goalie. How many games has he lost in the last five minutes? How many softies should he have stopped? Countless.

He's playing good now, and that's great, but why didn't he play like this all year? Ruff has given him countless opportunities to assume the #1 role and Marty has consistantly disappointed. His inconsistency is his downfall.

Like I said in my earlier post, you cannot allow 213 goals and expect to make the playoffs. However, you should be in a playoff spot when your team has scored the 10th most goals in the entire NHL. The blame almost entirely falls squarely on the goaltending.
First of all, the blame is not entirely on the goaltending. Do you think we had even an adequate defense in the first half of the season?

Secondly, two years ago Biron was the undisputed starter. 72GP 2.21GAA .915SV%
Last year they had him share time with Noronen and he suffered from not playing every game. Same thing happened this year, and he and Noronen suffered further from such a horrible defense. Will Biron ever win a Vezina? Most likely he won't, but there isn't a gaurantee Noronen will either. What we do know, is that when given the confidence, Biron can make us compete for the playoffs.

In the second half of the season we are one of the best teams in the league, and the goaltending(Biron) and the improved defense deserve a great deal of the credit. The offense has finally been pretty consistent and the pieces for a great team are in place.

People forget the success he had just two years ago. Its not like he hasn't done it in half a century. It was just the season before last. Give the guy a break. Where would we be right now without him?

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04-01-2004, 12:18 PM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digable5
First of all, the blame is not entirely on the goaltending. Do you think we had even an adequate defense in the first half of the season?
I said ALMOST entirely falls squarely on the goaltending. It was more the fault of soft goals than shoddy defensive play


Quote:
Secondly, two years ago Biron was the undisputed starter. 72GP 2.21GAA .915SV%
Last year they had him share time with Noronen and he suffered from not playing every game. Same thing happened this year, and he and Noronen suffered further from such a horrible defense. Will Biron ever win a Vezina? Most likely he won't, but there isn't a gaurantee Noronen will either. What we do know, is that when given the confidence, Biron can make us compete for the playoffs.
Two years ago the Sabres finished in 10th place with 213 goals for and 200 goals against. This year so far they have 217 GF and 213 GA. Two years ago Marty's GAA was 2.22 and his SV% .915. This year his GAA is (so far) 2.56 and his SV% .912. Last year the Sabres scored 190 goals while allowing 219. They finished 12th. Biron's GAA was 2.56 and his SV% was .908. The facts don't lie, he is not getting any better! Biron doesn't make us "compete" for anything. With the exception of the last half dozen games, more often than not it's a race to score more goals than the opposing team.


Quote:
In the second half of the season we are one of the best teams in the league, and the goaltending(Biron) and the improved defense deserve a great deal of the credit. The offense has finally been pretty consistent and the pieces for a great team are in place.
Give credit where credits due, the Sabres offense is ranked 10th in the NHL, while our goaltending is ranked 23rd. The offense has been outstanding and we would not be fighting for a playoff spot without the success of our offense.


Quote:
People forget the success he had just two years ago. Its not like he hasn't done it in half a century. It was just the season before last. Give the guy a break. Where would we be right now without him?
What success? Did we make the playoffs and I missed it? Look where we are with him these last three years...nowhere. Where would we be without him....hmmmm, probably in the playoffs.

Sorry, the facts don't lie. I very badly want the Sabres to succeed but it just isn't going to happen with Marty. I wish I were wrong, but he's just too inconsistent to be a #1 goaltender.

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04-01-2004, 12:36 PM
  #10
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Here's another interesting stat for you:


First half (after 41 games)

96 GF 108 GA 37 pts.

Second half (39 Games since midway point)

121 GF 105 GA 48 pts.

I definately see an offensive improvement, but I fail to see a goaltending improvement. You can't honestly think that Biron is responsible for the Sabres second half success. You're kidding yourself if you believe that. Once again the facts don't lie.

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04-01-2004, 01:00 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sabrfan
I said ALMOST entirely falls squarely on the goaltending. It was more the fault of soft goals than shoddy defensive play.
I certainly disagree that it was more soft goals than shoddy defensive play. How do you explain the improvement of goals against since the acquisition of Brown and Jillson and the removal of Delmore and Campbell from the lineup? The goalies are the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sabrfan
Two years ago the Sabres finished in 10th place with 213 goals for and 200 goals against. This year so far they have 217 GF and 213 GA. Two years ago Marty's GAA was 2.22 and his SV% .915. This year his GAA is (so far) 2.56 and his SV% .912. Last year the Sabres scored 190 goals while allowing 219. They finished 12th. Biron's GAA was 2.56 and his SV% was .908. The facts don't lie, he is not getting any better! Biron doesn't make us "compete" for anything. With the exception of the last half dozen games, more often than not it's a race to score more goals than the opposing team.
This is a team game and making the playoffs isn't the sole responsibility of the goalie. You can't say that Biron is the only reason we didn't make the playoffs the last two years (three if we don't make it this year). To speak like good old LALA, would you say that Luongo is a poor goalie because the Panthers didn't make the playoffs? LALA also likes to mention, and I somewhat agree with him, that the SV% speaks more of the success of the keeper and the GAA is more of the defense and keeper. Just as Luongo has an enormous SV%, but not an elite GAA. In this instance, Biron had an extremely bad year last year, but has turned it around with a similar SV% to two years ago. And he went from being the man, to having to split starts the whole season. I think that he has proven that he plays better when he starts regularly, as evidenced by the streak we are on. Last night he allowed 3 goals, but faced 40 shots and had a .925 SV%. His SV% was .906 this year until Lindy turned it completely over to him and it is now .912.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sabrfan
Give credit where credits due, the Sabres offense is ranked 10th in the NHL, while our goaltending is ranked 23rd. The offense has been outstanding and we would not be fighting for a playoff spot without the success of our offense.
I don't disagree with you here. The offense is a huge part of our success. I made comments about that in my previous statement. But Marty has also stepped up at the end of the season and is keeping us in the hunt along with the great offense and improved defense. You are ignoring his accomplishments. The game is not completely based on numbers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sabrfan
What success? Did we make the playoffs and I missed it? Look where we are with him these last three years...nowhere. Where would we be without him....hmmmm, probably in the playoffs..
What goalie do you think would be taking us to playoffs right now. From what you've seen of Noronen and Biron this year, you think Noronen would have us securely in the postseason? Come on. Be realistic. And I've seen nothing from Miller that would have told me he was ready yet. He was given the job to start the season, and didn't make it past two games. Granted, he wasn't supported very well, but which of our goalies really has been?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sabrfan
Sorry, the facts don't lie. I very badly want the Sabres to succeed but it just isn't going to happen with Marty. I wish I were wrong, but he's just too inconsistent to be a #1 goaltender.
The FACTS you are forgetting are that Biron has a winning record in three of his four seasons in which he played more than 40 games. Apparently, winning games isn't important to you then. I'd rather have a goalie that has a higher GAA, but wins games. And the .911 career SV% isn't bad. Khabibulin's is .910 career and a .910 for the season. I believe that if he was given full duties next year, Biron would be even better.


Last edited by Digable5: 04-01-2004 at 01:05 PM.
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04-01-2004, 01:16 PM
  #12
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You are ignoring the facts. The Sabres have allowed 108 goals in the first half (41 games) and have allowed another 105 in the second half (39 games) with two games to go. They scored 96 1n the first half and then exploded with 121 in the second half with two games to go. Offense is the reason for their second half success not goaltending.

Biron's GAA and SV% are almost identical to last year with two games to go.. We'll just have to agree to disagree. We're both fans of the same team. Just not of Marty. IMO he's got to go.

As for Luongo, he is my favorite goalie and has been for long time. Marty doesn't hold a candle to Roberto. Not even close.

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04-01-2004, 01:34 PM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sabrfan
You are ignoring the facts. The Sabres have allowed 108 goals in the first half (41 games) and have allowed another 105 in the second half (39 games) with two games to go. They scored 96 1n the first half and then exploded with 121 in the second half with two games to go. Offense is the reason for their second half success not goaltending.

Biron's GAA and SV% are almost identical to last year with two games to go.. We'll just have to agree to disagree. We're both fans of the same team. Just not of Marty. IMO he's got to go.

As for Luongo, he is my favorite goalie and has been for a long time. Marty doesn't hold a candle to Roberto. Not even close.
I know that Biron doesn't hold a candle to Luongo. That's not the arguement. The idea of that comparison is to say that the goalie is not the only reason we have not made the playoffs the last three years as you imply. And I'm not saying that the improved offensive out put didn't have a major role in our run, but you have not given Biron any credit what so ever. He deserves more respect than the majority of Sabre's fans have given him. That's all I'm asking for.

EDIT: And by the way, since the trading deadline, Biron has allowed 2.09 goals per game. I didn't calculate a GAA, but it should actually be a better number because of the OTs. Also, his SV% in that same time is .930.


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04-01-2004, 02:25 PM
  #14
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I don't give him credit because in my honest opinion, he doesn't deserve any credit. I've watched him let in way too many stoppable goals. I get nervous every time we get down to the last 5 minutes of every game he starts, because more often than not that's when we've lost a point or two. I've completely lost faith in Marty because of his inconsistency.

That being said, I'm very glad that he's playing so well right now, but why couldn't he play like this all year? Don't tell me it's because Ruff didn't label him "#1", Ruff gave him countless opportunities to take over the starting job, often times undeservedly. Mika's numbers have been better than Marty's all year, still Marty get's the nod. I'm not saying that Mika's a #1, he hasn't played enough to make that assessment. I honestly don't think that Ruff gave Mika a fair shake this year. But Marty was given every possible opportunity to be #1.

You have to look at the whole picture, not just how Marty has played in the last half dozen games or so. I still don't trust his goaltending. I fully expect him to blow games for us on a regular basis if he's still with us next season. He's made a habit of not showing up until the second half of the season, I heard a rumour somewhere else on these boards that his off-season training is virtually non-existent, which would explain his horrid starts these last few years.

I'm a die-hard Sabres fan, never miss a game, and if I do, I catch it at midnight on second-shift. I'm just not a Biron fan.

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04-01-2004, 02:43 PM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sabrfan
I don't give him credit because in my honest opinion, he doesn't deserve any credit. I've watched him let in way too many stoppable goals. I get nervous every time we get down to the last 5 minutes of every game he starts, because more often than not that's when we've lost a point or two. I've completely lost faith in Marty because of his inconsistency.

That being said, I'm very glad that he's playing so well right now, but why couldn't he play like this all year? Don't tell me it's because Ruff didn't label him "#1", Ruff gave him countless opportunities to take over the starting job, often times undeservedly. Mika's numbers have been better than Marty's all year, still Marty get's the nod. I'm not saying that Mika's a #1, he hasn't played enough to make that assessment. I honestly don't think that Ruff gave Mika a fair shake this year. But Marty was given every possible opportunity to be #1.

You have to look at the whole picture, not just how Marty has played in the last half dozen games or so. I still don't trust his goaltending. I fully expect him to blow games for us on a regular basis if he's still with us next season. He's made a habit of not showing up until the second half of the season, I heard a rumour somewhere else on these boards that his off-season training is virtually non-existent, which would explain his horrid starts these last few years.

I'm a die-hard Sabres fan, never miss a game, and if I do, I catch it at midnight on second-shift. I'm just not a Biron fan.
I really think that you are giving him an unfair view. The defense was just plain awful this year. If you watched every game this year, you should realize how much better the play has been since the break. The arguement that everybody says that they don't like him because he waits until the second half to turn it up, Hasek had the same problem. And nobody should start saying that I'm comparing him to Hasek because I'm not. Hasek did it, but on another level. The thing is, would you rather have a goalie that starts off hot and fades over the course of the season? Its all about peeking at the right time, and Biron does that. The better offense and defense earlier in the season, would have helped too. And to say that Biron had more of a chance to be No.1 than Noronen is awful. First off, they were both passed by Miller and that had to hurt both of them. Secondly, there were stretches where Noronen was competing against himself, and he couldn't keep it either.

The last thing I will say right now is that, I think we can agree that Lindy Ruff knows more about hockey and how to win then we do, and who did he turn to when we needed to win at the end of the season? Biron. And he stepped up. Plain and simple.

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04-01-2004, 03:59 PM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sabrfan
I don't give him credit because in my honest opinion, he doesn't deserve any credit. I've watched him let in way too many stoppable goals. I get nervous every time we get down to the last 5 minutes of every game he starts, because more often than not that's when we've lost a point or two. I've completely lost faith in Marty because of his inconsistency.

That being said, I'm very glad that he's playing so well right now, but why couldn't he play like this all year? Don't tell me it's because Ruff didn't label him "#1", Ruff gave him countless opportunities to take over the starting job, often times undeservedly. Mika's numbers have been better than Marty's all year, still Marty get's the nod. I'm not saying that Mika's a #1, he hasn't played enough to make that assessment. I honestly don't think that Ruff gave Mika a fair shake this year. But Marty was given every possible opportunity to be #1.

You have to look at the whole picture, not just how Marty has played in the last half dozen games or so. I still don't trust his goaltending. I fully expect him to blow games for us on a regular basis if he's still with us next season. He's made a habit of not showing up until the second half of the season, I heard a rumour somewhere else on these boards that his off-season training is virtually non-existent, which would explain his horrid starts these last few years.

I'm a die-hard Sabres fan, never miss a game, and if I do, I catch it at midnight on second-shift. I'm just not a Biron fan.

Mika has had 34 games this season, and while his numbers have been better than Birons, the number of wins has not. He's also had at least five stretches where he played 3 to 5 games in a row. To me, he was given a very fair chance to carry this team and be the #1, but didn't take advantage of the opportunity.

Both goalies have given up soft goals. Your main complaint has more to do with last year, when he gave up a lot more easy goals. To me, Noronen and Biron have been about the same on that this season, and ALL goalies give up soft goals.

How many games did Biron loose in the last 5 minutes? Again, this is a team sport. You can't blame the goaltender when the defence leaves a guy standing alone right in front of the net or can't clear the puck.

For a goaltender, Biron is still below the prime. Many goaltenders don't get really good until they are closer to 30. At 26, Biron still has some growing up to do. He can use that time to improve his practice habits.

Biron isn't Hasek, he isn't Roy, but he can get this team to the playoffs with an average defence in front of him. We haven't had an average defence in some time...

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04-01-2004, 04:04 PM
  #17
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What I want (and I think I speak for a lot of people) is a goalie who's fairly consistent from October to April and hopefully beyond. Marty is not that goalie. He's either godawful or really good. He's a goalie who waits until february/march to turn it up, when it's probably too late.

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04-01-2004, 04:07 PM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djhn579
Mika has had 34 games this season, and while his numbers have been better than Birons, the number of wins has not. He's also had at least five stretches where he played 3 to 5 games in a row. To me, he was given a very fair chance to carry this team and be the #1, but didn't take advantage of the opportunity.

Both goalies have given up soft goals. Your main complaint has more to do with last year, when he gave up a lot more easy goals. To me, Noronen and Biron have been about the same on that this season, and ALL goalies give up soft goals.

How many games did Biron loose in the last 5 minutes? Again, this is a team sport. You can't blame the goaltender when the defence leaves a guy standing alone right in front of the net or can't clear the puck.

For a goaltender, Biron is still below the prime. Many goaltenders don't get really good until they are closer to 30. At 26, Biron still has some growing up to do. He can use that time to improve his practice habits.

Biron isn't Hasek, he isn't Roy, but he can get this team to the playoffs with an average defence in front of him. We haven't had an average defence in some time...
Biron has had 3 years to step up to the plate. How many more years are you willing to give him to be consistent?

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04-01-2004, 05:30 PM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sabrfan
Biron has had 3 years to step up to the plate. How many more years are you willing to give him to be consistent?
As opposed to going through the same with another goaltender? Noronen has already shown he is no better than Biron is, and Miller is going to go through the same thing. In two more years, Noronen may be where Biron is now, maybe better but not that much better. Getting rid of Biron for another whipping boy is not the answer. This team has had too many problems over the last few years, most notably the whole team taking nights off and the defence has been no where near where it needs to be.

If you want a consistent goaltender, get a guy about 30 years old. He will probably cost 3.5 to 5.0 mil a year, and with our defence in front of him, he will be little better than Biron.

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04-01-2004, 06:52 PM
  #20
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Well, I guess time will tell. Hopefully we'll know during the offseason which direction management will go. I for one hope Biron's gone. He's too expensive. I'd rather see a Noronen/Miller duo next year, rather then spend another season waiting for Marty to decide when to show up. In the meantime.....................


GO SABRES!!!


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04-01-2004, 08:09 PM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sabrfan
Well, I guess time will tell. Hopefully we'll know during the offseason which direction management will go. I for one hope Biron's gone. He's too expensive. I'd rather see a Noronen/Miller duo next year, rather then spend another season waiting for Marty to decide when to show up. In the meantime.....................


GO SABRES!!!
There is no way this team should go with a Noronen/Miller combo. No flippin' way!

Biron/Miller sounds good. If you think that Noronen will provide more consistency that Biron over an entire season you're kidding yourself. IMO, Noronen at this time in his career is not as good as Biron. We'd be wishing we had Biron back in no time.

IMO, Biron has been given 1 legitament chance at being the #1, and that was the first year without Dom. I'd say he did very, very well that season considering the number of games he played and the fact that it was his first crack at it. He finished in the top ten in virtually every goaltending category that year. Ruff has been toying with him ever since, and it sure is not helping Biron's confidence, which imo translates to consistency.

We were spoiled in Buffalo with Dom here for many years, and the fact of the matter is we probably will never find a goalie as good. There truly isn't many goalies around these days who would significantly improve our goaltending.

Ruff has a quick trigger finger, and at this pace none of Biron, Noronen, or Miller are going to amount to anything. We need to go with Biron next year, bring up Miller to play 15-20 games and go from there.

Getting rid of Biron at this point is like starting all over again, because we don't have a goalie in the system who has proven they are ready to replace Biron.

Biron plays his best late in the game, and lately he has been making TIMELY saves. The GAA may not be down from the 1st half of the season, but Biron's play is noticeably better, he looks sharp, and he isn't giving the game away in the 1st period. Biron has been just as important as any Sabre in the last little while.

Mark my words:

If we trade Biron away, we will not make the playoffs next year AND we will all be wishing we could have him back, when neither Mika nor Ryan are playing well. I'm sorry but I'm not ready to start all over again.

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04-01-2004, 08:41 PM
  #22
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My vote is Noronen/Miller for next season.

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04-01-2004, 08:43 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Takeo21
My vote is Noronen/Miller for next season.
I guess you want to start re-building all over again?!?!?


Are you confident that they can hold the fort and WIN games at the same pace Biron is? I highly doubt it.

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04-01-2004, 08:56 PM
  #24
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I knoe Biron is not an amazing goalie....I think he's good.


But, I would never even consider having to rely on Miller or Noronen at this point.
Sure, nobody around here likes Biron, but I'll bet that the same feelings will surround Noronen in no time, and all the pressure will be on Miller.

Does anyone care to speak on why Biron's record is soooo impressive this year?
Coincidence? Luck? It's the team, not him? Biron is part of the success.

Biron hasn't been given a fair shake, especially to start the season. Let's go with him to start next year. I'll wager that Biron is the undisputed starter next year with Miller backing him up.

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04-01-2004, 09:23 PM
  #25
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A lot of people don't like Biron because he didn't have the most impressive GAA or SV%. It's kind of funny though that if most goaltenders are having a bad game, they get pulled. Ruff leaves Biron in for 5, 6, 7 goals against. When Roy was left in a game like that, he demanded a trade from Montreal...

All goaltenders have bad games and get pulled from games. Ruff is a little bit more hesitant to do that, usually because whatever backup we have can't be counted on to do better, partly because he wants to see if the goaltender can "work through it". But then, Ruff is a "brilliant" coach, and Biron is an "inconsistent" goaltender.

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