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Old
07-29-2009, 11:25 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by stoneymcstone View Post
I would like to see Finger go in a trade, I can't see anyone absorbing his salary unless we take something silly back in return.
Maybe not silly, but we'd probably have to take an overpaid forward in return. Depending on the player, this might make more sense for the Leafs now that their top 4 or 5 spots are pretty much spoken for on defence. Of course, this is pending additional moves that have to be made.

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07-29-2009, 11:25 AM
  #52
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Ultimately, Fletcher probably never saw Jeff Finger play. He was evaluated by someone else in the organization whose job it is to evaluate professional talent (pro scout). Every GM in the NHL relies on the word of these guys. If your pro scouts are garbage, they recommend garbage like Finger and Raycroft.

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07-29-2009, 11:41 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Why would the 5th.best defender in the west be benched in the playoffs?

Wouldn't.
Finger was still essentially a rookie and at end of season had only played 94 NHL games.

Rookies make mistakes and Finger was no different to anyone else that lacks experience.. He made a defensive coverage mistake in the playoffs and his coach decided to switch things around and go with more experience as his team was on the ropes of being eliminated.

Finger was playing ahead of Jordan Leopold and other vets at the time..

Here is the article from the Denver Post.

Quote:
Costly error sends Finger to bench

After a mental error that helped cost the Avs Game 3 of its playoff series with Minnesota, Jeff Finger was benched for Game 4 on Tuesday night by coach Joel Quenneville.

The Avs defenseman was a healthy scratch, while Jordan Leopold made his first appearance of the series. With the Avalanche having eight healthy defensemen, Quenneville has options if some aren't playing to his liking.

Leopold, who won a Hobey Baker Award at the University of Minnesota, played alongside Ruslan Salei and looked excellent. He had two assists, including a nifty pass that led to Salei's power-play goal that made it 4-0 in the second period.

http://www.denverpost.com/avalanche/ci_8940046
Its not like the first and only time a defenseman made a mistake.. We have all witnessed some of McCabe beauties in the past , and Mike Komisarek (self proclaimed even) had an off season and just got a 5 year $4.5 mil deal despite the defensive mistakes of the past hoping for better in the future.

Remember when Tomas Kaberle was having a successful rookie season in 1998-99 and got benched at the end of the season and also for playoff games that season. Kaberle then despite being benched still went on to become a top pairing defender.

Now of course I am only comparing the situation and not the palyers themselfves here , but it may not be the best measuring stick to base an entire case on a few games benching of a rookie in the playoffs.

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07-29-2009, 11:43 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by LeafsInSeven View Post
Ultimately, Fletcher probably never saw Jeff Finger play. He was evaluated by someone else in the organization whose job it is to evaluate professional talent (pro scout). Every GM in the NHL relies on the word of these guys. If your pro scouts are garbage, they recommend garbage like Finger and Raycroft.
Wow... that's pretty harsh. Whether or not Jeff Finger is worth $3.5M per season is debatable but he's hardly "garbage". I think that both Finger and Frogren will look a lot better in a tougher and more positionally disciplined line-up this season.

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07-29-2009, 12:05 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by LeafsInSeven View Post
Ultimately, Fletcher probably never saw Jeff Finger play. He was evaluated by someone else in the organization whose job it is to evaluate professional talent (pro scout). Every GM in the NHL relies on the word of these guys. If your pro scouts are garbage, they recommend garbage like Finger and Raycroft.
Fletcher essentially came out of retirement to help out MLSE when they came calling. He was out of hockey, enjoying life in Phoenix, and was not an active GM at the time.

Fletcher hired coach Wilson and then asked his opinion on Finger's abilities.. He then contacted Joel Quennville Finger's former coach and again got positive input and then asked his friend and pro Scout Al Coates and after doing his due diligence on the subject getting informed opinions from professionals on the subject went ahead with the signing.

Fletcher did what anyone of us would have in his shoes, or any other GM for that matter might have to get more informed information on a subject. This is the same process that happens on all teams all the time as routine.

At the end of the day should Finger end up being a poor signing, then this is more of full system breakdown, and plenty of blame to go around here.

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07-29-2009, 12:37 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by The Nic View Post
Wow... that's pretty harsh. Whether or not Jeff Finger is worth $3.5M per season is debatable but he's hardly "garbage". I think that both Finger and Frogren will look a lot better in a tougher and more positionally disciplined line-up this season.
I don't get all the Finger hate. Did these people watch him last year? Yet again he was in the top 20 for blocked shots in the entire league.

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Old
07-29-2009, 12:53 PM
  #57
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Finger... uh miracle season anyone?

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Old
07-29-2009, 01:07 PM
  #58
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I don't get all the Finger hate. Did these people watch him last year? Yet again he was in the top 20 for blocked shots in the entire league.
The part that I think a lot of fans are missing is Finger's Even strength 5-5 production..

ES time is played more then any other during he course of a game and players that are statistically productive at this time should have value to a team.. Sure players can pile up the points while on the PP with an extra man advantage but what about contribution when that is not the case and your team needs production..

Of all of Leafs defenders last season Jeff Finger ranked 5th in ATOI per game behind Kubina, Kaberle, Schenn, and White averaging only 20.29 mins.. Jeff Finger also got virtually no PP time and spent a fair amount on the PK of that overall time..

Jeff Finger scored 6-17-23 points in 66 games (~=3/4 a season) and only 2 assists came via he PP.. That means 6-15-21 points came when teams were playing 5 aside.. In comparison Kubina recorded 14-26-40 points - 9-13-22 PP points = 5-13-18 ES points. Kaberle 4-27-31 minus 3-16-19 PP points = 1-11-12 ES points. Finger wasn't even brought in for his offensive production but still excelled verses his offensive dman teammates. Even strength points is like gold when you can get it from your players, and one has to wonder how many more points he is capable of with more PP time?.

So I am surprised that despite leading the defense in ES points with only 5th best dman ATOI, that it doesn't earn Finger more appreciation. He was also among the NHL's best hitters and shot blockers in both categories last season. While he is overpaid by about a $1 mil per season due to the inflationary UFA process by which he was acquired, that shouldn't negate the other things he does bring to the team.

If fans don't appreciate him, you would have to believe the coach appreciates the physical, shot blocking, hitting and ES point produciton he brings.. Wilson himself endorsed the signing as he believed he as among the better shutdown defenders in the Western Conference.

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07-29-2009, 01:20 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Fletcher essentially came out of retirement to help out MLSE when they came calling. He was out of hockey, enjoying life in Phoenix, and was not an active GM at the time.

Fletcher hired coach Wilson and then asked his opinion on Finger's abilities.. He then contacted Joel Quennville Finger's former coach and again got positive input and then asked his friend and pro Scout Al Coates and after doing his due diligence on the subject getting informed opinions from professionals on the subject went ahead with the signing.

Fletcher did what anyone of us would have in his shoes, or any other GM for that matter might have to get more informed information on a subject. This is the same process that happens on all teams all the time as routine.

At the end of the day should Finger end up being a poor signing, then this is more of full system breakdown, and plenty of blame to go around here.
Unfortunately, the experts told him 3 years at $4.5 million total. He heard it as 4 years $3.5 million/season.

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07-29-2009, 01:20 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
The part that I think a lot of fans are missing is Finger's Even strength 5-5 production..

ES time is played more then any other during he course of a game and players that are statistically productive at this time should have value to a team.. Sure players can pile up the points while on the PP with an extra man advantage but what about contribution when that is not the case and your team needs production..

Of all of Leafs defenders last season Jeff Finger ranked 5th in ATOI per game behind Kubina, Kaberle, Schenn, and White averaging only 20.29 mins.. Jeff Finger also got virtually no PP time and spent a fair amount on the PK of that overall time..

Jeff Finger scored 6-17-23 points in 66 games (~=3/4 a season) and only 2 assists came via he PP.. That means 6-15-21 points came when teams were playing 5 aside.. In comparison Kubina recorded 14-26-40 points - 9-13-22 PP points = 5-13-18 ES points. Kaberle 4-27-31 minus 3-16-19 PP points = 1-11-12 ES points. Finger wasn't even brought in for his offensive production but still excelled verses his offensive dman teammates. Even strength points is like gold when you can get it from your players, and one has to wonder how many more points he is capable of with more PP time?.

So I am surprised that despite leading the defense in ES points with only 5th best dman ATOI, that it doesn't earn Finger more appreciation. He was also among the NHL's best hitters and shot blockers in both categories last season. While he is overpaid by about a $1 mil per season due to the inflationary UFA process by which he was acquired, that shouldn't negate the other things he does bring to the team.

If fans don't appreciate him, you would have to believe the coach appreciates the physical, shot blocking, hitting and ES point produciton he brings.. Wilson himself endorsed the signing as he believed he as among the better shutdown defenders in the Western Conference.
its amazing how you can beat the drum so consistently on how great a value finger is at 3.5/per. only yesterday you wrote how defensive specialist komisarek is the leaf's highest paid player at 4.5/per and went on in numerous paragraphs of drivel of how bad a signing it was. gotcha mess, finger at 3.5 is way better than komisarek at 4.5. that opinion alone about sums up the extent of your knowledge on hockey.

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07-29-2009, 01:39 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Jeff Finger also got virtually no PP time and spent a fair amount on the PK of that overall time..
We certainly hope he doesn't this year, although it couldn't get any worse.

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He was the Leafs' leading scorer in the 196364, 196667 and 196970 seasons, and the team's top goal scorer in 197071 and 197273. Keon was considered one of the fastest skaters in the NHL, and one of the best defensive forwards of his era.[3] He would usually play against the opposing team's top centre, and developed a reputation for neutralizing some of the league's top scorers. In 197071, he scored eight shorthanded goals, setting an NHL record.
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07-29-2009, 01:42 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by syc View Post
I don't get all the Finger hate. Did these people watch him last year? Yet again he was in the top 20 for blocked shots in the entire league.
Did you watch him, or did you just look up the blocked shot numbers? He sacrafices positioning to attempt to block shots and this causes him to lose his inside out positioning, leaving men open closer to the net. This negates any benefits we gained from his shot blocking, since he created a more dangerous situation in the process. He's not garbage, he's just a bottom pairing d-man who is heavily overpaid for what he brings.

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07-29-2009, 01:44 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by akiberg View Post
its amazing how you can beat the drum so consistently on how great a value finger is at 3.5/per. only yesterday you wrote how defensive specialist komisarek is the leaf's highest paid player at 4.5/per and went on in numerous paragraphs of drivel of how bad a signing it was. gotcha mess, finger at 3.5 is way better than komisarek at 4.5. that opinion alone about sums up the extent of your knowledge on hockey.
Brian Burke has spoken, Jeff Finger is not in the top four and is officially dead weight.

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07-29-2009, 02:02 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
We certainly hope he doesn't this year, although it couldn't get any worse.
Jeff Finger ranked #18th in the NHL overall best with 158 blocked shots and only played in 66 games. Projected over 82 games would be 196 and placed him top 10 in the NHL easily..

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...tssPlayerStats

Well as the saying goes "Your best penalty killer is the goalie", so unless that improves I agree it can't get any worse the last.

So I wonder how many more goals the Leafs would have surrendered if not for all the ones Jeff Finger blocked himself breaking up plays and preventing goals against?

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07-29-2009, 02:18 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Volcanologist View Post
Maybe not silly, but we'd probably have to take an overpaid forward in return. Depending on the player, this might make more sense for the Leafs now that their top 4 or 5 spots are pretty much spoken for on defence. Of course, this is pending additional moves that have to be made.
What about Burke's former player Dustin Penner ?

Penner - 3 years at $4.25 mil verses Finger 3 years at $3.5 mil

Its a $750k extra cost Leafs and savings for Oilers.

Wonder if after all the previous insults between Lowe and Burke, in regards to Penner, if such a deal is even possible?.

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07-29-2009, 02:31 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by syc View Post
I don't get all the Finger hate. Did these people watch him last year? Yet again he was in the top 20 for blocked shots in the entire league.
This is because the process of elimination is:

Can't hate Kaberle,
he's our All-Star
Can't hate Schenn,
he's our Future Captain-Golden Boy
Can't hate Komisarek,
we stole him from our arch-rivals
Can't hate Beauchemin,
he's our only defenseman with a Stanley Cup ring.
Can't hate Van Ryn,
he was the victim of a dirty hit.
Can't hate White,
he's our 2007-2008 comeback kid.
Can't hate Exelby or Frogren,
because no one has any expectations of them

Which leaves only Finger to hate.

Simple.

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07-29-2009, 04:13 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
What about Burke's former player Dustin Penner ?

Penner - 3 years at $4.25 mil verses Finger 3 years at $3.5 mil

Its a $750k extra cost Leafs and savings for Oilers.

Wonder if after all the previous insults between Lowe and Burke, in regards to Penner, if such a deal is even possible?.
What about him? If Burke didn't want to pay it then he definitely doesn't want to pay it now. Unless Edmonton severely overpays. Severely.

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07-29-2009, 04:48 PM
  #68
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We should all give the finger to Finger when/if he leaves. Take that Jeff, you and your stupid over paying contract.

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07-29-2009, 06:46 PM
  #69
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The headline if Finger were traded ought to be "Burke loses his Finger in trading incident".

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07-29-2009, 07:10 PM
  #70
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Would you guys be surprised if White plays on the wing while Finger and MVR play the bottom 6 role?
Would it pain you even more to see Finger moved up to number 4 at the expense of Luke Schenn because he's gonna have a real good season?

Give the guy a chance, he played on a horrible TEAM last year, this year he'll turn it around.

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07-29-2009, 07:21 PM
  #71
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At the moment Fingers contract shouldn't even be a topic of conversation as we're no where near the cap or have reached contending status. His contract hasn't prevented the leafs from making any moves this summer.

Kaberle Kommy
Schenn Beauch
Finger XXXXXX
XXXXX

Take you pick: Exelby, White, MVR, Frogren

This year Finger is being placed exactly where he supposed to be, a Bottom Pairing Defenceman.

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07-30-2009, 12:07 AM
  #72
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I still think Burke should have taken that 2nd round pick for White, only made worse now that we have too many NHL D-men...and I don't think White deserves a spot on forward over our young guys (Bozak, Stalberg, Tlusty, Kulemin). But hey, shouldacouldawoulda.

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07-30-2009, 12:14 AM
  #73
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I still think Burke should have taken that 2nd round pick for White, only made worse now that we have too many NHL D-men...and I don't think White deserves a spot on forward over our young guys (Bozak, Stalberg, Tlusty, Kulemin). But hey, shouldacouldawoulda.
He probably put that out there to let other GM's know what the asking price would be. He's already admitted (as many GM's do) to using the media to "put the word out there" on the availability of this players.

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Old
07-30-2009, 12:32 AM
  #74
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If no process is forthcoming I would favour elimination.

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Old
07-30-2009, 02:17 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by stoneymcstone View Post
I would like to see Finger go in a trade, I can't see anyone absorbing his salary unless we take something silly back in return.

You are also forgetting that there were up to 5 other teams that were interested in Finger when he signed with us and he had more money on the table from at least 1 or 2 of those offers. he choose TO because he wanted to play here. So many people jumped on the WTH bandwagon when it came to him but he played a solid role for the avs and logged 20+ mins a game. He can handle the workload and he isn't as badly paid as some people are.

I would be happy to have him round out our top 6 d corp.

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