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OT - Clarke rags on Pens

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Old
08-02-2009, 10:49 AM
  #1
Blazephr
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OT - Clarke rags on Pens

it's been a little slow around here. so here's something off topic while we wait for news on Zherdev's arbitration..........

this article has Pens fans raging at the moment, while calling Clarke a whiner.

http://www.thehockeynews.com/article...ce.html?page=1


“We were allowed to spend the money, we always tried to win,” Clarke said. “We didn’t do what Pittsburgh did; lose seven years in a row so they could get good. They did it twice, in fact. They went through six or seven different owners. We’ve had one owner.”

Clarke finds the strategies of some current teams appalling when considering the way other organizations have built competitive teams.

“It’s somewhat embarrassing that three of the last teams (in the 2009 playoffs) missed the playoffs six or seven years in a row; Washington, Chicago, and Pittsburgh,” he said. “Now they’re good and the teams that try to win all the time get penalized. Our philosophy has never changed since 1967.”

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08-02-2009, 10:51 AM
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It's true, though. Teams are rewarded for: fans not showing support, dumbass GM's, and bad owners pissing away money.

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08-02-2009, 11:11 AM
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You can't really disagree with him. You also certainly can't expect it to be a popular opinion, coming from Bobby Clarke.

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08-02-2009, 11:12 AM
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Make the draft lottery more like the NBA lottery - or perhaps even moreso. If finishing last gave you a 33% chance at the first pick, but perhaps a 5% chance at the 8th pick... the Pitt/Wash/Chi strategy wouldn't be a strategy at all. You'd always be striving to improve, because finishing last would be a total crapshoot.

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08-02-2009, 11:14 AM
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Never thought I'd agree with Bob Clarke...but he gets a golf clap here...it's nice that someone finally had the guts to come out and say it...

Living pretty close to Pittsburgh, I have to listen to Penguins fans brag all the time now.

It really is sad how many of them truly believe that they built that team from within with prospects and good development...

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08-02-2009, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
Make the draft lottery more like the NBA lottery - or perhaps even moreso. If finishing last gave you a 33% chance at the first pick, but perhaps a 5% chance at the 8th pick... the Pitt/Wash/Chi strategy wouldn't be a strategy at all. You'd always be striving to improve, because finishing last would be a total crapshoot.
That. This would be simply amazing if it happened. No longer would teams even have the half subconscious notion to Tank because with only a 1/3 chance of getting the top pick....it just wouldn't be worth it.

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08-02-2009, 11:24 AM
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Somebody should tell Bobby that his team basically gave a few cups to Colorado by selling the farm to them for Lindros.

Somebody should also tell bobby that his insistence to always cheap out on the goal tending is why they still don't have a cup.

Waaaaaaaa.

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08-02-2009, 11:25 AM
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Clarkie whines as good as Crosby. Always did, but what he says is true. This is socialism baby. Spread the wealth. He hates it and he is right.

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08-02-2009, 11:54 AM
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gravytrain6t
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[QUOTE=Blazephr;20636535]it's been a little slow around here. so here's something off topic while we wait for news on Zherdev's arbitration..........

this article has Pens fans raging at the moment, while calling Clarke a whiner.

http://www.thehockeynews.com/article...ce.html?page=1


“We were allowed to spend the money, we always tried to win,” Clarke said. “We didn’t do what Pittsburgh did; lose seven years in a row so they could get good. They did it twice, in fact. They went through six or seven different owners. We’ve had one owner.”

Clarke finds the strategies of some current teams appalling when considering the way other organizations have built competitive teams.

I've been making this argument and pissing off many a Pens fan for a while now. Good for Bobby Clarke. They can call him a whiner all they want but he's not in the hall of fame and didn't Captain Philly to two Stanley Cups because he had the skills of Lemieux that's for sure. I wanna see anyone who make this claim of "whinery" work in a coal mine all night, then go play hockey during the day and take a beating to score goals while having type one diabetes.

I agree. Why should the bottom feeders get top picks all the time?? If that's the case after 1994 the Rangers should have tanked it for 5 years. Who cares? They sucked anyway. Go for 6 years. Then we'll have more ticker tape parades than any Ranger fan can handle.

I always use the Blues example when they made it to the playoffs 25 years in a row. No one remembers them. They only remember the Cup winning teams.

I'll never forget sitting next to a Rangers fan in the Garden years back and he was getting pissed when the Rangers scored goals while I stood up in cheered. He was wearing a Rangers Jersey so I asked him how come he was getting disgusted. He wanted a high end pick. After I heard that, I thought there's got to be something wrong here. Not just in NY. But throughout all of the NHL there are probably fans like this.

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Old
08-02-2009, 12:06 PM
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I think it's silly that the worst team is pretty much guaranteed the #1 pick. Teams 23-30 should all have an even chance at #1. Team #23 should have an equal shot at #1 that #30 has at #8. Just because one team sucked the most, doesn't mean that they should always be rewarded the most. Heck, I'd even be willing to push that to teams 17-30, but then people would be upset that a team who almost made the playoffs may get the #1 pick. I still wouldn't be opposed to it.

Plus if that incentive to tank to #30 was removed, it would also make things more interesting at the end of the season since those bottom teams would be more inclined to play spoiler.

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08-02-2009, 12:17 PM
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hes whining, but hes right. teams are rewarded for not spending money and doing a **** job, with franchise players in the draft.

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08-02-2009, 12:21 PM
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Two things.

When Bettman once said Pittsburgh is a model franchise, I hurled. Both because his open man-love for a team and its players and because it's so far from the truth you can come, but also because of the slap in the face of first and foremost Detroit and to a lesser extent (ugh) New Jersey, who are the two true model franchises in NHL. They have always formed a competitive team, who have never let any bad draft picks and loss of players hurt their ridiculously good competiveness. Especially Detroit is so bloody damn impressive here. After realizing they sucked, they set up their new agenda, which was their way of playing hockey. They always set their tactics first and then searched for the players that will fit well in their way of playing hockey, not the other way around like most teams, who first drool over the players and pick them almost randomly and then ask themselves "How will we play the most successful hockey with this player material?". The result has been the last true franchise dynasty, which is Detroit.

When Clarke complained about the ridiculousness of tanking teams now being good because they were almost systematically brutal, I to some extent agree with him, but I also snickered when being reminded Clarke traded the Flyers future for Lindros. Then I got reminded which team I cheer for and stopped snickering.

Oh, and third(ly): I really hope NYR has found out which way NYR want to play hockey and stick with it! Continue playing hockey like Torts wants if that is the way and then start picking the right choice of players who will perform well in this system dammit. Sadly, I don't think $ather has figured this out yet and will probably just pick a totally different coach when Torts is gone or has retired. You don't bloody change the way of playing hockey in a franchise with the wim of switching coach, the way of playing hockey must be rooted in the smallest brain cell of every member of the organisation, where every draft pick and farm team knows wth is going on and will be going on.

Until NYR $ather figures this out, it won't even have a remote chance of becoming a dynasty team. So, it's all up to $ather to figure this ou... alright, we're screwed. It's not like he's paid millions to figure this out by himself already.


Last edited by Chimp: 08-02-2009 at 12:35 PM.
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08-02-2009, 12:28 PM
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Pittsburgh didn't tank those seasons to get the high picks. First of all, they didn't even finish last the year they picked Fleury #1 and they did finish last the year they picked Malkin #2. It's still a crapshoot. The team that finishes last doesn't always pick first.

Also, those Penguins teams were just bad. They didn't have the money to go out and improve the players on the team like the Flyers did. Chicago had poor ownership that had little interest in improving the team. Washington redeveloped by making good trades Hell, Chicago and Washington only had 2 top 5 picks each in the last 10 years. Guess how many Philadelphia has had? Two.

Bobby Clarke is nothing but a hypocrite and can't take the fact that the Flyers' vaunted philosophy that they've stuck to since '67 has netted them zero Stanley Cups in 35 years. Didn't the Flyers miss the playoffs 4 seasons in a row in the early 90s? So much for never putting out an inferior product on the ice.

His point about the draft might be good (although I disagree) but his reasoning is incredibly faulty.

Getting the #1 overall draft pick isn't a reward. It's compensation to the fans for having to watch a dismal season. Doing the draft any other way is unfair to the fans of those teams.

Edit: oh yeah, and what about the teams that made it to the Conference Finals in 2008? Detroit, Dallas, Pittsburgh and Philadelphia. 3 of the 4 have been consistently competitive for more than a decade. What does Clarke say to that? You can use specific years as examples all you want...


Last edited by Tawnos: 08-02-2009 at 12:36 PM.
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08-02-2009, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimp View Post
Two things.

When Bettman once said Pittsburgh is a model franchise, I hurled. Both because his open man-love for a team and its players and because it's so far from the truth you can come, but also because of the slap in the face of first and foremost Detroit and to a lesser extent (ugh) New Jersey, who are the two true model franchises in NHL. They have always formed a competitive team, who have never let any bad draft picks and loss of players hurt their ridiculously good competiveness. Especially Detroit is so bloody damn impressive here. After realizing they sucked, they set up their new agenda, which was their way of playing hockey. They always set their tactics first and then searched for the players that will fit well in their way of playing hockey, not the other way around like most teams, who first drool over the players and pick them almost randomly and then ask themselves "How will we play the most successful hockey with this player material?". The result has been the last true franchise dynasty, which is Detroit.

When Clarke complained about the ridiculousness of tanking teams now being good because they were almost systematically brutal, I to some extent agree with him, but I also snickered when being reminded Clarke traded the Flyers future for Lindros. Then I got reminded which team I cheer for and stopped snickering.

Oh, and third(ly): I really hope NYR has found out which way NYR want to play hockey and stick with it! Continue playing hockey like Torts wants if that is the way and then start picking the right choice of players who will perform well in this system dammit. Sadly, I don't think $ather has figured this out yet and will probably just pick a totally different coach when Torts is gone or has retired. You don't bloody change the way of playing hockey in a franchise with the wim of switching coach, the way of playing hockey must be rooted in the smallest brain cell of every member of the organisation, where every draft pick and farm team knows wth is going on and will be going on.

Until NYR $ather figures this out, it won't even have a remote chance of becoming a dynasty team. So, it's all up to $ather to figure this ou... alright, we're screwed. It's not like he's paid millions to figure this out by himself already.

I think in terms of playing styles him and torts are on the same page.

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08-02-2009, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimp View Post
Two things.

When Bettman once said Pittsburgh is a model franchise, I hurled. Both because his open man-love for a team and its players and because it's so far from the truth you can come, but also because of the slap in the face of first and foremost Detroit and to a lesser extent (ugh) New Jersey, who are the two true model franchises in NHL. They have always formed a competitive team, who have never let any bad draft picks and loss of players hurt their ridiculously good competiveness. Especially Detroit is so bloody damn impressive here. After realizing they sucked, they set up their new agenda, which was their way of playing hockey. They always set their tactics first and then searched for the players that will fit well in their way of playing hockey, not the other way around like most teams, who first drool over the players and pick them almost randomly and then ask themselves "How will we play the most successful hockey with this player material?". The result has been the last true franchise dynasty, which is Detroit.

When Clarke complained about the ridiculousness of tanking teams now being good because they were almost systematically brutal, I to some extent agree with him, but I also snickered when being reminded Clarke traded the Flyers future for Lindros. Then I got reminded which team I cheer for and stopped snickering.

Oh, and third(ly): I really hope NYR has found out which way NYR want to play hockey and stick with it! Continue playing hockey like Torts wants if that is the way and then start picking the right choice of players who will perform well in this system dammit. Sadly, I don't think $ather has figured this out yet and will probably just pick a totally different coach when Torts is gone or has retired. You don't bloody change the way of playing hockey in a franchise with the wim of switching coach, the way of playing hockey must be rooted in the smallest brain cell of every member of the organisation, where every draft pick and farm team knows wth is going on and will be going on.

Until NYR $ather figures this out, it won't even have a remote chance of becoming a dynasty team. So, it's all up to $ather to figure this ou... alright, we're screwed. It's not like he's paid millions to figure this out by himself already.
Bettman never actually said that. Here is a link to the article. The gentleman who wrote this chose a very poor title.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=418542

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Old
08-02-2009, 12:58 PM
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So if they don't get the number one pick, then they get Malkin . Realistically, I'm not so sure it's compensation. It sounds to me, like losing is a great way to build a franchise capable enough of winning multiple Stanley Cups.

Teams who are consistantly just missing or barely making the playoffs are disgusted as well. In the end the fans of the team at the bottom should be the happiest as they get too talk all summer about Crosby or Ovechkin, Kane, Tavares, etc...

The fans of the team that is mediocre are pulling the hair out of their heads. Why are they remaining mediocre? Because they're getting mediocre draft picks.

So when all is said and done. It pays to lose. The league is helping the losing team build a winner.
It doesn't take good scouting to know not to pick Crosby or Ovechkin.

I don't look at Clarke as a whiner. Maybe he's the only one with balls enough to speak up. He didn't just point out the Penguins.

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08-02-2009, 01:04 PM
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I've always believed that the team that wins the Stanley Cup gets rewarded with the first overall pick in the following draft.

This league rewards mediocrity all over the board.

Get rid of the loss point in the standings. If you lose, you lose, you get nothing.


Stop rewarding losing and mediocrity, start rewarding winning and effort.


I find it incredible that teams like the Rangers need to financially support garbage organizations (like the Penguins) that deliberately tank season on end so they can acquire top picks year after year.

Also, the Rangers hadn't gotten to the post season 7 straight seasons, and we (fans) STILL sold out every game.

Where were Penguins "fans" before Crosby came along? The team was on the verge of bankruptcy and moving out of Pittsburgh.

And then those schmucks have the nerve to rip the Rangers "buying" players. Because the organization at least tries to put on a winner on the ice, rather then tank. And is it our fault New York is New York. Who gives a crap about Pittsburgh? New York is the center of the world. For a reason. We give other cities inferiority complexes.

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08-02-2009, 01:15 PM
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He forgot to include how the Fishsticks are currently implementing a loser philosophy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
I've always believed that the team that wins the Stanley Cup gets rewarded with the first overall pick in the following draft.

This league rewards mediocrity all over the board.

Get rid of the loss point in the standings. If you lose, you lose, you get nothing.


Stop rewarding losing and mediocrity, start rewarding winning and effort.


I find it incredible that teams like the Rangers need to financially support garbage organizations (like the Penguins) that deliberately tank season on end so they can acquire top picks year after year.

Also, the Rangers hadn't gotten to the post season 7 straight seasons, and we (fans) STILL sold out every game.

Where were Penguins "fans" before Crosby came along? The team was on the verge of bankruptcy and moving out of Pittsburgh.

And then those schmucks have the nerve to rip the Rangers "buying" players. Because the organization at least tries to put on a winner on the ice, rather then tank. And is it our fault New York is New York. Who gives a crap about Pittsburgh? New York is the center of the world. For a reason. We give other cities inferiority complexes.
Can't say I disagree with you much at all except the 1st going to the winner of the cup. Instead I'd like to see a different lottery method, one that doesn't favor bottom teams as much. I'd also like to see a different cap and redistribution of profits method. One where if your team doesn't make the playoffs for 3 straight years, then your can lose your financial support.


Last edited by vipernsx: 08-02-2009 at 01:22 PM.
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08-02-2009, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
I've always believed that the team that wins the Stanley Cup gets rewarded with the first overall pick in the following draft.

This league rewards mediocrity all over the board.

Get rid of the loss point in the standings. If you lose, you lose, you get nothing.


Stop rewarding losing and mediocrity, start rewarding winning and effort.


I find it incredible that teams like the Rangers need to financially support garbage organizations (like the Penguins) that deliberately tank season on end so they can acquire top picks year after year.

I also want to add that they could implement a rule. If a team wins the overall lottery and recieves the rights to the number one pick two years in a row then their should be a stipulation where that team is not allowed to enter the big hat after a certain amount of picks to ensure they don't get a first round pick 3 years in a row.

Also, the Rangers hadn't gotten to the post season 7 straight seasons, and we (fans) STILL sold out every game.

Where were Penguins "fans" before Crosby came along? The team was on the verge of bankruptcy and moving out of Pittsburgh.

And then those schmucks have the nerve to rip the Rangers "buying" players. Because the organization at least tries to put on a winner on the ice, rather then tank. And is it our fault New York is New York. Who gives a crap about Pittsburgh? New York is the center of the world. For a reason. We give other cities inferiority complexes.
Terrific idea. Terrific post. And deserving of This takes even the remote thought or possibility that a team would think of tanking it. Teams that tank it, aren't exactly going to make it look obvious. On the other hand I'm not saying the Penguins did.

I actually have a better idea Just kidding. But what about this.

How about at the end of each season, no one knows who will get 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th pick etc...etc...etc.... Putting it simply, take the 30 teams. Put them in a hat and who ever you pull out first gets the first pick. Which ever team you pull out 2nd, gets the second pick. The next team picked out of the hat gets the third pick...etc (i think you guys caught on). How does it get any more fair than that? Put the names of the teams in an envelope and if the General Managers are worried Bettman might have it rigged and is favoring any team, then have all G.M.'s (or assistant) write down the team in which they represent, place it into an envelope and then the big hat, have a count and make sure there are 30 envelopes, shake it up real good and start picking.

Actually why not do this for every sport?? (Except for baseball and i have my reasons.)

Either that, or do a spin the wheel type thing and see where the needle lands on each spin. Once you get down to 15 teams, then just simply put a double for each remaining team on the wheel. How about that??

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08-02-2009, 01:36 PM
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Clarke is right but it's unfair to place the blame on the organizations that are doing this IMO.

Pittsburgh, Chicago, NYI, and Washington did not (or are not in the Islanders case) do anything wrong. They're just manipulating the league into being able to stock top 5 draft picks year after year to put a cheap winning product on the ice in the future. And hey it's a great way to build a team.

You know why?

Because they can.

Chimp made a great point about DET, and NJD...that's how you build winners folks. Not the way Pittsburgh got their cup. I want the Rangers to get their next cup the way Detroit did it.

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08-02-2009, 01:42 PM
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I hate Clarke. I have nothing else to add.

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08-02-2009, 01:45 PM
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Clarke is right but it's unfair to place the blame on the organizations that are doing this IMO.

Pittsburgh, Chicago, NYI, and Washington did not (or are not in the Islanders case) do anything wrong. They're just manipulating the league into being able to stock top 5 draft picks year after year to put a cheap winning product on the ice in the future. And hey it's a great way to build a team.

You know why?

Because they can.

Chimp made a great point about DET, and NJD...that's how you build winners folks. Not the way Pittsburgh got their cup. I want the Rangers to get their next cup the way Detroit did it.
Yea but it doesn't mean it has to be. In 1994 we lucked out. We had a better team two years prior. But in 94' the Rangers had no Lemieux to contend with. Made a huge difference. Had too.

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08-02-2009, 01:48 PM
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I don't necessarily agree with Clarke, but the idea of Bettman calling Pittsburgh a "model franchise" really makes me want to vomit.

First year I moved to Pittsburgh, the Pens couldn't give tickets away. Now a few years later everyone here says "I've been a fan for years!"

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08-02-2009, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
I don't necessarily agree with Clarke, but the idea of Bettman calling Pittsburgh a "model franchise" really makes me want to vomit.

First year I moved to Pittsburgh, the Pens couldn't give tickets away. Now a few years later everyone here says "I've been a fan for years!"
I've had the same thing in DC. Amazing what drafting a couple of superstars with the top pick will do to a "fan base."

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08-02-2009, 03:52 PM
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Pittsburgh didn't tank those seasons to get the high picks. First of all, they didn't even finish last the year they picked Fleury #1 and they did finish last the year they picked Malkin #2. It's still a crapshoot. The team that finishes last doesn't always pick first.

Also, those Penguins teams were just bad. They didn't have the money to go out and improve the players on the team like the Flyers did. ...

Going to have to disagree with you there. You do remember, pre-lock out, the Penguins flirting with moving the team due to, as you say, lack of money? Directly after the lockout, they signed Sergei Gonchar to a monster 4 year-20 million dollar deal (unheard of at the time, especially for the new cap era), Ziggy Palffy, John LeClair, Mark Recchi, etc.

I hate Bobby Clarke, but he pinpointed Pittsburgh's ways. If they didn't spend all that dough post lockout, I'd say he's talking nonsense. But, PITT was the BIGGEST spenders the summer after the lockout and this was AFTER they secured Fluery (almost a surefire, elite goaltender), Malkin (damn close to Ovechkin talent) and Crosby (after what many conceptualize as a rigged lottery). Pittsburgh set the precedent with the Lemieux sweepstakes and continued it.

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