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Old
07-31-2009, 05:14 PM
  #1
hockeyball
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Tweaking

Wanted to discuss this a bit more and not clutter the news thread.

http://blogs.mercurynews.com/sharks/...-from-detroit/

Does DW essentially do nothing to the top 6, and does that make sense for the team?

As it stands the team looks like:

Marleau - JT - Seto
Michalek - Pavs - Clowe
Mcginn - Mitchell (1) - Cheechoo
Shelley - Nichol - Staubitz (.75)
Vesce/Ortmayor (.5)

Boyle - Luko
Blake - Vlasic
Ehrhoff - Murray
Huskins

Nabby
Greiss (.75)

(Salary noted for players not yet signed based on common acceptance)

Which puts us at about: $60.4M or 2.8M over the Cap

I think it's fairly safe to say Luko is deffinetly an odd man out here, traded for picks and replaced with Huskins (and Josilin) that puts us at: 59.3M or 1.8M over the cap

You can save another .25M by unloading Shelley and replacing with a league minimum player.

Realistically though, the team still needs to clear 2M to be under the cap with a little space for injury call ups. My preference would be to keep Cheechoo and see how he plays. Worst case he can't be worth less than he is, best case he regains form or atleast increases his value. If the team is planning on waiting it out, and getting maximum value for players, what options do we have to bide time?

My take:

1) Hang onto Cheechoo, waive him. Take a huge risk in losing him for nothing (and I bet we would). Plus does not give him the opportunity to recover his value some. His value should still be better near the trade deadline though.

2) Trade Clowe for picks/prospects/4th liner. Move Cheechoo back to the top line (as the line combo's seemed to indicate anyway), Seto to the 2nd line. I could see this being done if DW is unhappy with the contract he had to give Clowe, or if he thinks he will be an injury issue. We should get good value right now for Clowe.

3) Trade Ehrhoff/Vlasc/Murray. Call up Moore/Josilin or trade for a less expensive young defensemen. All 3 will have good value you now and garner a respectable return. Waiting till the trade deadline is not going to drastically increase their values.

What do you guys think? See how the team does till the trade deadline. Let other teams come to us for our players during the season, not vice-versa. Any other idea's for squeeking under the cap?

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07-31-2009, 05:24 PM
  #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post

2) Trade Clowe
Clowe is not getting traded.

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07-31-2009, 05:27 PM
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Clowe is not getting traded.
Way to qualify.

How about better/other ideas? That was the point of the thread.

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07-31-2009, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Way to qualify.

How about better/other ideas? That was the point of the thread.
Keep Clowe, trade Cheech. You trade Cheech before you waive him ... because he would 100% be claimed off waivers.

The cap hit for each player is pretty even, and for what each player brings, I'd keep Clowe. Clowe is bigger, plays a more physical game, and has better playmaking abilities than Cheech. Cheech has a better shot, and plays with more heart (when fully/mostly healthy).

Both have had injury histories, and I don't feel either one is more durable than the other at this point.

I like Cheech, I always have. I think he was one of the few players that actually played well against the Ducks. But I don't see DW signing Clowe only to trade him. And, as we've all been saying for a while now, we need to dump one of our seven top 6 players. Unfortunately, that is Cheechoo at this point.

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Old
07-31-2009, 05:33 PM
  #5
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HB,
Cheech was given the opportunity in prime time PP opps at the beginning of last season with JT/Marleau/Blake/Boyle. He was pulled. When he was on the ice, the PP was good for less than 5 goals/60min. Optimally that is an 16% PP, probably more like 12-13%. The other end of the spectrum was Seto where the PP was good for over 11 goals/60min. That is huge.

It was noted elsewhere that a player who is subject to recall waivers can be sent down to the AHL and if not claimed can be traded straight from the AHL team without going through recall waivers (eg McLaren).

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07-31-2009, 05:44 PM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Way to qualify.

How about better/other ideas? That was the point of the thread.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, but I am not into playing "who are we going to get". I don't mind reading others ideas and if while doing that, I see something that I strongly believe is wrong, I'm gonna say something about it.

If and when we do something I'll add my 2 cents, but I don't pretend to know enough about every player in the league to get into these what ifs.

When a trade is actually made, maybe I do know a little about the player and/or I can do research and come up with an opinion.

That said, I do know quite a bit about the Sharks and I don't believe DW is gonna do a sign and trade. I do believe Cheech is odd man out and we probably have to part with a D-man nobody wants to lose.

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07-31-2009, 05:47 PM
  #7
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Cheech was given the opportunity in prime time PP opps at the beginning of last season with JT/Marleau/Blake/Boyle. He was pulled. When he was on the ice, the PP was good for less than 5 goals/60min. Optimally that is an 16% PP, probably more like 12-13%. The other end of the spectrum was Seto where the PP was good for over 11 goals/60min. That is huge.
He seemed to be improving near the end of the year, and I was assuming it was a combination of lingering injury issues and poor conditioning (probably connected to the lingering issues). There is really no other explanation to his total drop off after the surgery, other than he just got terrible all of the sudden.

LZ:

I understand, I'm not looking for trade ideas as much as is leaving the top 6 untouched for now and squeeking under the cap a good plan. If so, how is the best way to do that value wise.

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07-31-2009, 05:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
HB,
Cheech was given the opportunity in prime time PP opps at the beginning of last season with JT/Marleau/Blake/Boyle. He was pulled. When he was on the ice, the PP was good for less than 5 goals/60min. Optimally that is an 16% PP, probably more like 12-13%. The other end of the spectrum was Seto where the PP was good for over 11 goals/60min. That is huge.

It was noted elsewhere that a player who is subject to recall waivers can be sent down to the AHL and if not claimed can be traded straight from the AHL team without going through recall waivers (eg McLaren).
He had 6 points in the first six games of the season, which is respectable, but started to decline in November. This could either be from his lack of consistency, or that his injuries began to resurface around this time. I'm hoping it was the latter.

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07-31-2009, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
He seemed to be improving near the end of the year, and I was assuming it was a combination of lingering injury issues and poor conditioning (probably connected to the lingering issues). There is really no other explanation to his total drop off after the surgery, other than he just got terrible all of the sudden.
Even with a healthy Cheech, he's likely the odd man out (and going to get dealt). His lack of speed is a glaring weakness in TMac's new system.

Easiest thing to do is trade him for a decent pick and a fwd (prospect or 3rd line winger).

Then, deal Luko or Murray and get under the cap. Dealing Murray provides an extra $1m in cap savings but I'd rather deal Luko.

Basically, I think DW has a solution to deal the above players and is playing the waiting game as he should. Any other players should bring same or better players in return.

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07-31-2009, 06:05 PM
  #10
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WT and HB,
Thanks. I understand the injuries and also that there will be ups and downs to the PP. I did note that Cheech was almost always on with JT/Marleau when he did get PP time. Cheech is one of the guys that was winded a lot on the bench (indicating off-season/conditioning issues).

I do think it will come down to what have you done for me lately. If Cheech does have a chance, it will have to be proven in camp. I don't think DW will want to take a chance on him unless he is absolutely sure because he will have to move someone who played better than Cheech last year to accommodate Cheech. If he tries waivers on other players near Cheech's cap hit, they would all be claimed more quickly than Cheech. With Cheech, he would have a better chance to pass and DW might be able to move him later in trade.

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Old
07-31-2009, 06:11 PM
  #11
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sharks are fine..motivation and execution are major key factors with this group.

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07-31-2009, 06:59 PM
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The only rational choice is getting rid of Cheechoo.
edit: and Lukowich, although I like him much more than Huskins.


Last edited by Kitten Mittons: 07-31-2009 at 07:13 PM.
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07-31-2009, 07:09 PM
  #13
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I'm encouraged by that post. Hopefully it just means that Cheechoo and Luko are gone, and that's it. Do that, sign the 3 RFA's, and get a 3rd-line RW. That's all the needs to be done now. Wait and see how the season goes and maybe make another move at the deadline. Maybe DW can convince Marleau to re-sign a cheap long-term deal that gets his cap hit down around $4.5 mil or less.

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07-31-2009, 07:15 PM
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I'm shocked that no one else seems to have caught this:
http://blogs.mercurynews.com/sharks/...at-this-point/

Quote:
What I do have is a look at the front-office depth chart this month that listed the top four lines and three defense pairings going into training camp. I didn’t see the official board with my own eyes, but here’s how it was relayed to me by someone who has.

Without further delay:

Michalek-Thornton-Cheechoo
Marleau-Pavelski-Clowe
McGinn-Mitchell-Setoguchi
Shelley/Frazer McLaren-Nichol-Staubitz

Vlasic-Blake
Huskins-Boyle
Ehrhoff-Murray

No, that top line isn’t what I expected either.

Also, that would leave Brad Lukowich as the 7th defenseman at this point.
This implies that at least through training camp that Cheechoo might very well be here. Although I don't think just trading Luko will clear anywhere enough cap space.

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07-31-2009, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaasa View Post
I'm shocked that no one else seems to have caught this:
http://blogs.mercurynews.com/sharks/...at-this-point/
Did you spend the last week on the Moon? We had a dedicated thread full of discussion about this post.

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Old
07-31-2009, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davidhye View Post
Did you spend the last week on the Moon? We had a dedicated thread full of discussion about this post.
That's weird. I've been here, and it' hasn't shown up as a new thread at all when I come to HF. It's nearly at the bottom of the thread list on the 1st page, showing as read.. when I've never seen it before.

OK, now I'm not shocked.. just befuddled.....

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Old
07-31-2009, 07:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaasa View Post
I'm shocked that no one else seems to have caught this:
http://blogs.mercurynews.com/sharks/...at-this-point/



This implies that at least through training camp that Cheechoo might very well be here. Although I don't think just trading Luko will clear anywhere enough cap space.
Really old news and discussed ad-naseum. Regrettably the OP is more of the same as well.

As we move more to the opening of camp and other teams fill their rosters moving to the cap, there is less liklihood of anything happening. We can presume DW tried to make some larger moves and didn't get the value back so we are going to tweek.

We still have a cap problem and as almost everyone said, Cheechoo is the odd man out. We will still have to probably deal another defenseman to get under and I hold out the hope we trade a defenseman for a 2/3 line player who can score a little.

Gawd I wish there was something to talk about ........

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07-31-2009, 08:33 PM
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**** nah mane...

Keeping our top 6 like that is stupid, for the TEAM.

Ether/or/and/both Michalek and Patrick Marleau should be traded. But they probably won't be. I would like us trading them both, getting True Thugs back. At least One True Thug. And I don't mean a killer, not a guy who fights and hits etc. A guy who has that Thug Spirit. Like Owen Nolan was with us. That's what we need.

We don't need skills, goals, assists, speed, or anything like that. We need Real Winners. Words. Story. History. Marleau and Michalek don't have that. I've seen the Playoffs.

We should have played more games in the past, with players like Gary Roberts, Joe Nieuwendyk, Claude Lemieux, Scott Stevens, Esa Tikkanen, Glenn Anderson, and some other players. We have played with Marleau and Michalek, with our other losing players, so keep on failing. Now we gotta find other players who can win. Pretty ****in simple eh. Even ****in Doug Wilson knew that. I don't know if he KNOWS it anymore though, as he's not trading suckas.

There's my answer to the question above: "Does DW essentially do nothing to the top 6, and does that make sense for the team?"

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Old
07-31-2009, 08:40 PM
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Real simple:
Putting out a squad like this:
Larose - Thornton - Setoguchi
Nolan - Pavelski - Clowe
McGinn - Mitchell - Cheechoo
Shelley/Ortmayer - Nichol - Staubitz

Is CHEAPER and WISER in the playoffs, than do it with Marleau and Michalek. I wonder if DW still knows this. Still is the word I emphasize here.

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Old
07-31-2009, 10:03 PM
  #20
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The only thing we know for sure is that we'll need to lose about 3M in cap space with tweeking as proposed. I think DW can do this in one of several ways(we all know what they are) w/o making a big deal most likely. One of which is to lose Cheech - granted his numbers are down, i'm just not sure losing him to get under cap space and given that we'll not getting a roster player back due to cap problems makes go forward. I'm just not convinved that this team that can go deap into the playoffs overfall - at best we'll make the playoffs and lose in the first round.

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07-31-2009, 10:27 PM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VP and GM View Post
The only thing we know for sure is that we'll need to lose about 3M in cap space with tweeking as proposed. I think DW can do this in one of several ways(we all know what they are) w/o making a big deal most likely. One of which is to lose Cheech - granted his numbers are down, i'm just not sure losing him to get under cap space and given that we'll not getting a roster player back due to cap problems makes go forward. I'm just not convinved that this team that can go deap into the playoffs overfall - at best we'll make the playoffs and lose in the first round.
Naww, we'll learn from our mistakes and lose in the 2nd round ...

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07-31-2009, 11:20 PM
  #22
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Sure, if we make the playoffs at all!

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Old
08-01-2009, 12:21 AM
  #23
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Since there are about 10 threads on the same thing and I happen to be reading this, I'll ask my question here:

Are there any teams that are below the salary minimum (there's a minimum these days, isn't there?). Maybe looking at teams that have to ADD salary and what roles they might need filled would give a sense of who might be the best to move (of course, this is all still pointless until something finally HAPPENS). God damn it, why hasn't training camp started yet...

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Old
08-01-2009, 12:35 AM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazedZooChimp View Post
Since there are about 10 threads on the same thing and I happen to be reading this, I'll ask my question here:

Are there any teams that are below the salary minimum (there's a minimum these days, isn't there?). Maybe looking at teams that have to ADD salary and what roles they might need filled would give a sense of who might be the best to move (of course, this is all still pointless until something finally HAPPENS). God damn it, why hasn't training camp started yet...
Use the following, and the answer is NO on any teams, with qualifiers. Use the Cap Space column to determine the answer; anything above 16mil means the team should add salary.

http://www.capgeek.com/cap_crunch.php

Qualifiers:
The Preds need a couple more players and only need another $300k or so to meet the floor. The Isles are at the floor, but it includes bonuses that will not likely be all reached (Tavares). The Isles only have one more spot and $3.4mil below the floor if bonuses are excluded. It would likely behoove them to add $3mil in that final spot.

Edit: I just double checked. The Isles will be fully subscribed but below the floor. Comeau is yet to be signed. The Preds have a couple of RFAs, Pihlstrom and O'Reilly, who are likely to be signed. I expect both to be on the Preds roster. A couple of their roster players (two-way contracts) may go up and down more than Pihlstrom and O'Reilly.


Last edited by SJeasy: 08-01-2009 at 12:43 AM.
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Old
08-01-2009, 12:51 AM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
Use the following, and the answer is NO on any teams, with qualifiers. Use the Cap Space column to determine the answer; anything above 16mil means the team should add salary.

http://www.capgeek.com/cap_crunch.php

Qualifiers:
The Preds need a couple more players and only need another $300k or so to meet the floor. The Isles are at the floor, but it includes bonuses that will not likely be all reached (Tavares). The Isles only have one more spot and $3.4mil below the floor if bonuses are excluded. It would likely behoove them to add $3mil in that final spot.

Edit: I just double checked. The Isles will be fully subscribed but below the floor. Comeau is yet to be signed. The Preds have a couple of RFAs, Pihlstrom and O'Reilly, who are likely to be signed. I expect both to be on the Preds roster. A couple of their roster players (two-way contracts) may go up and down more than Pihlstrom and O'Reilly.
So, understanding this correctly, the Islanders probably need to add someone with a decent cap hit to ensure they will be at the floor. Is the floor something that they just have to be at to start the season. I guess, like, does it work like the opposite of the cap where teams need to be a little above it so they don't drop below it if they make some sort of seller trade or like, put someone on LTIR or something?

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