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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, NHL revenues, relocation and expansion.

Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XI: A Fistful of Dollars?

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Old
08-07-2009, 01:42 AM
  #976
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Another problem is the precedent posed by the Anaheim expansion, when LA was determined to be owed $25,000,000 of the $50,000,000 expansion fee (not over and above the expansion fee, mind you, but part of the regular expansion fee that was also charged Florida); apparently Disney balked at paying a cent more than the regular expansion fee and the league acquiesced.

So there are two precedents there:
(1) Territory infringement penalties can be taken from the regular expansion fee
(2) Territory infringement penalty was 50% of regular expansion fee

If we assume an expansion fee of $270,000,000 based on the $540m for two expansion team number thrown around earlier, that would mean $135,000,000 for the Maple Leafs. However, if the league asks for $270m minus the current team value (i.e. $150m) = $120m, then either the entire "expansion" [relocation] fee would be payable to the Maple Leafs or half of it ($60m) would go to the Leafs. Or they'll give the $60m to the Leafs and ask Balsillie to also pay $75m in addtional penalties to the TML.

Of course, this is all conjecture and speculation. Who knows what would happen... I could see the BoG trying to charge Balsillie the entire $270m even after he purchased the Coyotes if he ever is able to do so, though that would be stupid. What is clear is that even in the most dire of the above scenarios save stupid ones ($212.5m for the Coyotes, $120m in relocation fees, $75m in addtional territorial infringment penalties to the TML), the total cost is still around $400m, which I think he would be willing to pay. And it most likely would be less than that [I'd bet on the simple $212.5m + $120m formula being most likely].

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08-07-2009, 02:13 AM
  #977
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Attorneys for Coyotes owner Jerry Moyes say they are sorry for accidentally releasing confidential information related to a bidder's negotiations with Glendale, but they call the city's proposed remedies excessive.
http://www.azcentral.com/sports/coyo....html#comments


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08-07-2009, 02:15 AM
  #978
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Originally Posted by nye View Post
They'll argue that is why they need to be able to control relocation.

A team in Hamilton has an impact on the value of a 2nd team in Toronto, or precludes that expansion opportunity altogether in the immediate future. As a league, they have an interest in a wide mix of geographical locations for current interest and future growth and there is a limit to the number of franchises that can be supported by the talent pool.

If expansion to places like Kansas City and Las Vegas had price tags around $200MM, and the if the NHL can support those numbers, only a loon would argue that Toronto, or even Hamilton was not worth 2x-3x that money.
I still would see 2nd Toronto franchise as viable move them to the N east end of town and they still would create good expansion money and the area can support 4 teams look at NYR NYI NJD the teams all succeed and so would those in S ont including a TO Galaxy and Hamilton .
As far as watered down talent i think weve seen why J Lemaires a successful guy 1st rate systems for 2nd line guys lol.

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08-07-2009, 02:21 AM
  #979
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I think they still are really angry about public finding out they would give away millions , i have to ask why they would care if they had no plan to give any concessions as has been stated many times .

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08-07-2009, 02:25 AM
  #980
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I think they still are really angry about public finding out they would give away millions , i have to ask why they would care if they had no plan to give any concessions as has been stated many times .
Do you think Moyes is above the law? Simple question.

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08-07-2009, 02:32 AM
  #981
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Do you think Moyes is above the law? Simple question.
Nobody is above the law and i never stated any such thing , simply saying the issue is a dead one if no concessions are on a table as far as COG , a mistake made and the law should look accordingly but it also shows backroom deals as suspected were in play and makes it aPR nightmare for sure .
As it goes and ive stated i dont know about Moyes dont have opinions either way he is what he is and the whole thing will play out how it should.

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08-07-2009, 02:37 AM
  #982
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Originally Posted by XavierX View Post
Do you think Moyes is above the law? Simple question.
seeing your in Pho and an involved memeber here what is teh take in Pho by general public , i know economics are in a downside what do you think taxpayers will do and is the support there to make any deals to keep teh Coyotes ?
no attempt to do anything other than get an honest opinion as you live there.

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08-07-2009, 02:50 AM
  #983
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seeing your in Pho and an involved memeber here what is teh take in Pho by general public , i know economics are in a downside what do you think taxpayers will do and is the support there to make any deals to keep teh Coyotes ?
no attempt to do anything other than get an honest opinion as you live there.
Glendale is certainly not opposed to the proposed plan. You can cite that ******** survey all you want, but I've yet to meet a Westsider who is upset that Westgate might get taxed a little extra to keep it from turning into a wasteland sans Coyotes. In fact, if you think the proposed plan is anything radical or out of line you only need to look across the street at the Cardinals subsidized stadium. Which makes Bidwill's crying all the more hilarious.

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08-07-2009, 03:14 AM
  #984
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Originally Posted by XavierX View Post
Glendale is certainly not opposed to the proposed plan. You can cite that ******** survey all you want, but I've yet to meet a Westsider who is upset that Westgate might get taxed a little extra to keep it from turning into a wasteland sans Coyotes. In fact, if you think the proposed plan is anything radical or out of line you only need to look across the street at the Cardinals subsidized stadium. Which makes Bidwill's crying all the more hilarious.
I do not know what the stadium deal was , do you think fans will show up though i know there are fans but its been a tough battle keeping enough paying what would have to change?
I am not anti Pho but admit id rather see next team to move or expand come north , and i do think Gb is still selling you short and would let JR move the team as well.
That said what happens next do you see a chance to make this work if they stay?

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08-07-2009, 03:29 AM
  #985
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That said what happens next do you see a chance to make this work if they stay?
If they stay, and Jerry Reinsdorf legitimately wants to move them, then so be it. Our beef (Coyote fans) is that since the team has arrived here, it has never been properly managed. Even in the playoff years the team was chalk full of veterans because the Coyotes had absolutely nothing in terms of a farm system. I believe the Coyotes produced 2 players in that time span; Briere and Kolanos. Neither really hit their stride with the Coyotes though Kolanos got violated by Varada.

Anyways. Fast forward to the present, and you have Gretzky running the team into the ground as hard as he can. Friends of his are littered throughout the organization and not coincidentally the only non-FoG is considered the best part of the organization; Maloney. Fans will support a well run team. The Coyotes have never been well run. Therefore, the fans have never had a reason to support the team.

You can go on about who deserves what or how people should support their team regardless. That's complete nonsense because the Coyotes aren't the only team in town. And even if they were, I wouldn't reward Mod edit: them with my hard earned money just because they cobble together a half-assed roster. That sort of thing is a vicious cycle and breeds idiocy. Ask Leaf fans or better yet Hawk fans. Why should they come out and support an idiotic regime? Just Because? That's crap.

Give Maloney and Reinsdorf 5 years and I can honestly say you'll have a contender and a profitable team. If all ills aren't fixed by then... move their ass. I wouldn't want a team to languish here if the next 5 years are like the last 5. Honestly, I don't see that happening under a competent business man in Jerry R and one of the best GMs in the league in Maloney. There's just too much sense between the two for things to be that bad.

I think Phoenix could be a model franchise in 5 years because no team in the valley really has a lot of history or success to lean on. The Suns and Diamondbacks are going to suck during this time and the Cardinals are a Boldin trade away from irrelevance. Now is the time.

Give us 5 years, and if we don't succeed, you can have your NHL hockey team back.


Last edited by Fourier: 08-07-2009 at 06:22 AM.
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08-07-2009, 03:44 AM
  #986
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Originally Posted by XavierX View Post
If they stay, and Jerry Reinsdorf legitimately wants to move them, then so be it. Our beef (Coyote fans) is that since the team has arrived here, it has never been properly managed. Even in the playoff years the team was chalk full of veterans because the Coyotes had absolutely nothing in terms of a farm system. I believe the Coyotes produced 2 players in that time span; Briere and Kolanos. Neither really hit their stride with the Coyotes though Kolanos got violated by Varada.

Anyways. Fast forward to the present, and you have Gretzky running the team into the ground as hard as he can. Friends of his are littered throughout the organization and not coincidentally the only non-FoG is considered the best part of the organization; Maloney. Fans will support a well run team. The Coyotes have never been well run. Therefore, the fans have never had a reason to support the team.

You can go on about who deserves what or how people should support their team regardless. That's complete nonsense because the Coyotes aren't the only team in town. And even if they were, I wouldn't reward Mod edit: them with my hard earned money just because they cobble together a half-assed roster. That sort of thing is a vicious cycle and breeds idiocy. Ask Leaf fans or better yet Hawk fans. Why should they come out and support an idiotic regime? Just Because? That's crap.

Give Maloney and Reinsdorf 5 years and I can honestly say you'll have a contender and a profitable team. If all ills aren't fixed by then... move their ass. I wouldn't want a team to languish here if the next 5 years are like the last 5. Honestly, I don't see that happening under a competent business man in Jerry R and one of the best GMs in the league in Maloney. There's just too much sense between the two for things to be that bad.

I think Phoenix could be a model franchise in 5 years because no team in the valley really has a lot of history or success to lean on. The Suns and Diamondbacks are going to suck during this time and the Cardinals are a Boldin trade away from irrelevance. Now is the time.

Give us 5 years, and if we don't succeed, you can have your NHL hockey team back.
i agree on most ill differ with you on some points and explain , i grew up in Vancouver never saw a winner still saw fans support a team only exeption was when canadian buck went low and economy was hit hard it hit the etam and its fans money was tight outside that they could sell out forever as long as teh boys show and work hard soem nights just show lol,
.
Toronto sucked for ages and sold out still do and always will 7.3 million in Toronto most hockey nuts so they will always thrive .
I can understand fans frustration and dont think id enjoy prospect of my team moving either .


Last edited by Fourier: 08-07-2009 at 06:23 AM.
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08-07-2009, 04:27 AM
  #987
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Originally Posted by XavierX View Post
If they stay, and Jerry Reinsdorf legitimately wants to move them, then so be it. Our beef (Coyote fans) is that since the team has arrived here, it has never been properly managed. Even in the playoff years the team was chalk full of veterans because the Coyotes had absolutely nothing in terms of a farm system. I believe the Coyotes produced 2 players in that time span; Briere and Kolanos. Neither really hit their stride with the Coyotes though Kolanos got violated by Varada.

Anyways. Fast forward to the present, and you have Gretzky running the team into the ground as hard as he can. Friends of his are littered throughout the organization and not coincidentally the only non-FoG is considered the best part of the organization; Maloney. Fans will support a well run team. The Coyotes have never been well run. Therefore, the fans have never had a reason to support the team.

You can go on about who deserves what or how people should support their team regardless. That's complete nonsense because the Coyotes aren't the only team in town. And even if they were, I wouldn't reward Mod edit: them with my hard earned money just because they cobble together a half-assed roster. That sort of thing is a vicious cycle and breeds idiocy. Ask Leaf fans or better yet Hawk fans. Why should they come out and support an idiotic regime? Just Because? That's crap.

Give Maloney and Reinsdorf 5 years and I can honestly say you'll have a contender and a profitable team. If all ills aren't fixed by then... move their ass. I wouldn't want a team to languish here if the next 5 years are like the last 5. Honestly, I don't see that happening under a competent business man in Jerry R and one of the best GMs in the league in Maloney. There's just too much sense between the two for things to be that bad.

I think Phoenix could be a model franchise in 5 years because no team in the valley really has a lot of history or success to lean on. The Suns and Diamondbacks are going to suck during this time and the Cardinals are a Boldin trade away from irrelevance. Now is the time.

Give us 5 years, and if we don't succeed, you can have your NHL hockey team back.
Mod delete:

Mod edit: You claim Maloney is one of the best GM's in the league. He may certainly be, but what do you base this on ?

Phoenix has what is generally regarded as a strong up and coming farm system. Yet you blame the Friends of Gretzky for doing a bad job ?



Last edited by Fourier: 08-07-2009 at 06:26 AM.
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08-07-2009, 06:34 AM
  #988
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Mod delete:

Mod edit: You claim Maloney is one of the best GM's in the league. He may certainly be, but what do you base this on ?

Phoenix has what is generally regarded as a strong up and coming farm system. Yet you blame the Friends of Gretzky for doing a bad job ?

There's only one FOG that has pulled his weight since being hired and that's Keith Gretzky, director of amateur scouting.

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08-07-2009, 09:31 AM
  #989
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http://docs.bmcgroup.com/phoenixcoyo...k-9488_544.pdf


Mod edit: Daly statement on Balsillie's dealing with the league.


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08-07-2009, 09:33 AM
  #990
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i agree on most ill differ with you on some points and explain , i grew up in Vancouver never saw a winner still saw fans support a team only exeption was when canadian buck went low and economy was hit hard it hit the etam and its fans money was tight outside that they could sell out forever as long as teh boys show and work hard soem nights just show lol,
.
Toronto sucked for ages and sold out still do and always will 7.3 million in Toronto most hockey nuts so they will always thrive .
I can understand fans frustration and dont think id enjoy prospect of my team moving either .
What you fail to understand is that a team with enough fans won't have problems selling out during a period of mediocrity because there are always diehards who'll pay to watch them no matter what. Even if 90% of Toronto's fanbase decided they'd stop supporting the team the Maple Leafs would still sell out. I can't remember the average attendance for the Coyotes last season off the top of my head, it was perhaps around 12,000 or so? I do remember the average TV audience, it was 7000. Give or take a couple thousand, let's say the total fanbase of the Coyotes is a round 20,000 for the sake of simplicity. If the number 20,000 is roughly accurate, it means the Coyotes are in trouble if less than 80% of their fanbase goes to the games. There's no margin of safety. However, paradoxically, this can be seen as an encouraging sign. Assuming there are indeed around 20,000 fans it means at least 60% of the Coyotes fanbase is comprised of "diehards" and more than half of the total fanbase attends the games after years of failure. In the notoriously fickle state of Arizona, that's quite a feat.

Shall we once again look to the examples of the Diamondbacks and the Cardinals? The Diamondbacks won a World Series in their third year of existence, the fastest of any expansion team. Hundreds of thousands celebrated during their victory parade. Five years later they were playing in a half empty stadium. For the majority of their existence the Cardinals were looked upon by the residents of Phoenix with lukewarm apathy at best. How did they manage to start attracting massive crowds? People didn't wake up one day with a greater appreciation of the sublime joys of football. It's pretty simple, one team started losing, the other started winning. I can guarantee you the Coyotes would fill the seats every night if they made strong showings in the playoffs for a couple years.

It's easy for you to declare that Coyotes fans aren't doing a good enough job to support their team but in fact, I'd argue the fans in Arizona are doing MORE to support their team than most Canadians. If one or two thousand people in Toronto or Montreal stop buying tickets their teams won't even feel it. Other fans would simply replace them. But Coyotes fans can't afford to do that. They know there isn't anyone to take their place. And I know this will be controversial but I'd also argue that fans of the Coyotes are doing just as much as the fans of the Jets did. People like to compare the Save the Jets Rally of 35000 to the Save the Coyotes Rally of 500 and yet the Jets had an average attendance hovering around 11,000 in their final season. For a team that supposedly had a much larger fanbase I find it strange the numbers are so similar. I see a lot of "Hockey can't work in the desert" and "Hockey can't work in the South" posts but I sure as hell don't see anybody saying "Hockey can't work in Winnipeg" or "Hockey can't work in Canada".

Give the team a chance. The dedicated fans are doing everything they can, they just need some help from casual fans who don't like supporting losers. And for that the Coyotes need to win.

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08-07-2009, 09:36 AM
  #991
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All I know is that the successor thread to this one better be subtitled "For a Few Dollars More", one of the best westerns ever.

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08-07-2009, 10:12 AM
  #992
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All I know is that the successor thread to this one better be subtitled "For a Few Dollars More", one of the best westerns ever.
I think "I'm not dead yet" is better.

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08-07-2009, 10:17 AM
  #993
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I think "I'm not dead yet" is better.
Did we have "The Good, The Bad and the Ugly" yet?

It would be interesting to see the interchangable roles of all the characters involved!

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08-07-2009, 10:34 AM
  #994
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http://www.thespec.com/article/565097


"The BlackBerry billionaire would foot the bill for initial upgrades, estimated at about $30 million, to get the arena ready for a team"


"No money will come from the city, added Eisenberger"
Seems to be some confusion:

http://www.faceoff.com/story.html?id...1-48e54914c575

"Balsillie's spokesman, Bill Walker, said the timing of the renovation announcement was made due to the bankruptcy court's requirement of the need for a viable facility, and a requirement of the NHL's relocation application.

Walker said that application will be submitted on Monday.

He also said that Balsillie will contribute $5 million to the estimated $150-million price tag in order to begin construction as soon as possible"


As for Eisenberger statement that no money will come from the City he should explain how infrastructure monies work beause he is lying. The Feds, The Province and the City ALL have to contribute money usually on this scale 50% Feds, 25% Provincial and 25% City. As of this moment the Feds and Queens Park have NOT committed any money for Copps and have not even really discussed it in detail.


Last edited by Northern Dancer: 08-07-2009 at 10:57 AM.
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08-07-2009, 11:15 AM
  #995
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Seems to be some confusion:

http://www.faceoff.com/story.html?id...1-48e54914c575

"Balsillie's spokesman, Bill Walker, said the timing of the renovation announcement was made due to the bankruptcy court's requirement of the need for a viable facility, and a requirement of the NHL's relocation application.

Walker said that application will be submitted on Monday.

He also said that Balsillie will contribute $5 million to the estimated $150-million price tag in order to begin construction as soon as possible"


As for Eisenberger statement that no money will come from the City he should explain how infrastructure monies work beause he is lying. The Feds, The Province and the City ALL have to contribute money usually on this scale 50% Feds, 25% Provincial and 25% City. As of this moment the Feds and Queens Park have NOT committed any money for Copps and have not even really discussed it in detail.

Copps regardless is gettin a face lift when this is announced this fall IF Toronto gets the games which seems pretty good chance they do ..billions will be spent to upgrade existing facilities across the region ..
http://www.thestar.com/news/ontario/article/676289

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08-07-2009, 11:25 AM
  #996
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Copps regardless is gettin a face lift when this is announced this fall IF Toronto gets the games which seems pretty good chance they do ..billions will be spent to upgrade existing facilities across the region ..
http://www.thestar.com/news/ontario/article/676289
That remains to be seen.

http://www.thestar.com/article/589394

"If Hamilton agrees to contribute at least $94 million toward a $150-million, 15,000-seat stadium, it would host the popular track and field events. It has also been chosen for a new 50-metre pool at McMaster University that will be used for training, and a temporary velodrome for cycling"

I would suggest that there is not a snow-balls chance in hell that Hamilton will cough up at LEAST 94 million dollars to up-grade Copps for a 17 day event. So it is NOT getting up-graded regardless of not getting an NHL team.

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08-07-2009, 11:36 AM
  #997
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That remains to be seen.

http://www.thestar.com/article/589394

"If Hamilton agrees to contribute at least $94 million toward a $150-million, 15,000-seat stadium, it would host the popular track and field events. It has also been chosen for a new 50-metre pool at McMaster University that will be used for training, and a temporary velodrome for cycling"

I would suggest that there is not a snow-balls chance in hell that Hamilton will cough up at LEAST 94 million dollars to up-grade Copps for a 17 day event. So it is NOT getting up-graded regardless of not getting an NHL team.


ISNT Basille lease for 20 something years upto 32 years or something like that?

id say 20 to 32 years of NHL in Copps is probably worth the upgrade wouldn't you? we know they wont have to move a Hamilton team ......

building get's face lifted and they can host more events and have 40 plus nhl games a year in town that gotta be worth something .....


and Hamilton still own the building ...


afterall Jim is going to be paying 350-500 million to bring a team to Hamilton..the least they can do is give him place to play suitable for NHL ..we know how long Hamilton has suffered....they obviously wanted NHL 23 years ago .....

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08-07-2009, 11:38 AM
  #998
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ISNT Basille lease for 20 something years upto 32 years or something like that?

id say 20 to 32 years of NHL in Copps is probably worth the upgrade wouldn't you? we know they wont have to move a Hamilton team ......

building get's face lifted and they can host more events and have 40 plus nhl games a year in town that gotta be worth something .....


and Hamilton still own the building ...
Balsillie has an option on a 32 year lease for Copps that expires I believe in September. He will NOT exercise that option without an NHL team.

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08-07-2009, 11:39 AM
  #999
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That remains to be seen.

http://www.thestar.com/article/589394

"If Hamilton agrees to contribute at least $94 million toward a $150-million, 15,000-seat stadium, it would host the popular track and field events. It has also been chosen for a new 50-metre pool at McMaster University that will be used for training, and a temporary velodrome for cycling"

I would suggest that there is not a snow-balls chance in hell that Hamilton will cough up at LEAST 94 million dollars to up-grade Copps for a 17 day event. So it is NOT getting up-graded regardless of not getting an NHL team.
I'd suggest this article is not talking about Copps Coliseum.

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08-07-2009, 11:40 AM
  #1000
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It's time.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?p...0#post20693480

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