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Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XI: A Fistful of Dollars?

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08-04-2009, 12:29 PM
  #101
Faltorvo
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OH boy, I'm going to need more popcorn.

It truly brings a tear of joy to my eyes seeing people like JR and snake politicians having there dirty laundry aired out.

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08-04-2009, 12:30 PM
  #102
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@ LS. I don't think Bidwill "can" get involved in the NHL, if I recall the NFL rules on owning franchises in other sports correctly.
IIRC, a NFL owner can own multiple sports teams (or portions of them), in different leagues but only in one market.

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08-04-2009, 12:32 PM
  #103
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IIRC, a NFL owner can own multiple sports teams (or portions of them), in different leagues but only in one market.
Bidwill should bid on the team and move it to Hamilton

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08-04-2009, 12:34 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by GHOSTofMAROONSroad View Post
There's no easy solution. We are talking about a franchise that is losing 10s of millions each year. However, perhaps the city could hire AEG, or a similar arena management company, to run the building and attempt to attract substainally more non-hockey events on key dates the NHL now occupies. The AHL might be a nice fit to take up some dates and provide a hockey presence in Phoenix (Roadrunner and Coyotes fans would have a new team to root for). Is the above really a worse outcome for the city than a heavily subsidies NHL franchise under the threat of relocation potentially for years to come?
I guess we'll find out. No one knows. But certainly there's more to it than "subsidy is bad! move team!". It is entirely possible the taxpayers lose more by losing the team now than the subsidy.

It's worth noting that any deal made had to be approved by Glendale's city council, and made public (completely contrary to the conspiracy theorists here who are muttering about closed door deals or dirty laundry). Obviously they were going to make a case for the pros and cons of keeping it vs moving it when that deal was or is finalized. They may have been desperate, but they also must have reasons to push for keeping it as well, some of which have been mentioned here. The only thing that has happened that is unusual is that someone with a lot to gain by breaking legal confidentiality went ahead and did it.

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08-04-2009, 12:36 PM
  #105
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I don't believe this is correct. More like, the shoppers at westgate will be charged an additional 11.5% tax on all their purchases to subsidize the Coyotes.

I'm a STH and really want ot see the team stay but I must say that I don't agree with doing this.

Yes, you're correct that it's not the City but the shoppers (citizens may have been the wrong term). Does this shopping areas generate enough shoppers to pay for this subsidy and would they still shop there with this extra "tax"?
I wonder what the shops in this area feel about having to charge more money to sell their goods. An extra 10%+ cost to their goods could shut-down their business. As far as I can see it, this whole scenerio is snowballing and it's not for the good!

Either way it really does suck for everyone in Phoenix.

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08-04-2009, 12:40 PM
  #106
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I thought this too before he started talking about a single auction yesterday. How does one do this without setting a cost to break the lease, relocation fees to Various cities, and possible infringement fees to other teams (if relocation to close to them). All of this is undetermined. Then are we to believe if it's open to anyone that no other groups would be interested - how would 30 days be enough time for them to do due dilligence and place a bid.
It's impossible. If the relocation auction date isn't vacated tomorrow, its entirely possible there will be no valid bids by sept 10... though that new bid says they aren't asking for arena subsidies and may suddenly be finding themselves the front runners, if they can produce the money.

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08-04-2009, 12:45 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
http://www.fromtherink.com/2009/8/4/...rfs-inside-man

Mirtle looks at Kaites, Reinsdorf's "inside man"
This is extremely shady, and I think is going to make it hard for a concession to get approved by the city council, and ensures even more of a stink is going to be made by the Goldwater institute.

Also, that 11.5% sales tax in a very small area is economic suicide for that small area. If I sell say TV's inside this tax district, and so does LS just outside the tax district, I need to undercut her prices well over 10% just to have the same price. No retail outlet is going to find that easy. But politicians don't really get economics...

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08-04-2009, 12:46 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by SirShagg View Post
I thought this too before he started talking about a single auction yesterday. How does one do this without setting a cost to break the lease, relocation fees to Various cities, and possible infringement fees to other teams (if relocation to close to them). All of this is undetermined. Then are we to believe if it's open to anyone that no other groups would be interested - how would 30 days be enough time for them to do due dilligence and place a bid.
My guess is there won't be a single auction for the reasons you cite, but we'll probably know more tomorrow. One other thing to point out: Balsillie's offer is contingent on several things including relocation and locking in all relocation costs to the NHL. The offer contains the right to walk away if they disagree with the NHL's relocation fee for example.

Things that would need to be resolved for Balsillie's bid to be successful:
- Does the court have authority to force the NHL to accept Balsillie as an owner?
- Does the court have authority to force the NHL to let the team relocate?
- How much can/will the NHL collect in relocation fees?
- How much can/will the NHL collect in indemnity fees?
- What are the damages and other effects for breaking the Glendale lease?
- Does Glendale have a right to specific performance?

I don't see any way that can all get litigated in Balsillie's favor in time for a September purchase/relocation.

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08-04-2009, 12:47 PM
  #109
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I guess we'll find out. No one knows. But certainly there's more to it than "subsidy is bad! move team!". It is entirely possible the taxpayers lose more by losing the team now than the subsidy.

It's worth noting that any deal made had to be approved by Glendale's city council, and made public (completely contrary to the conspiracy theorists here who are muttering about closed door deals or dirty laundry). Obviously they were going to make a case for the pros and cons of keeping it vs moving it when that deal was or is finalized. They may have been desperate, but they also must have reasons to push for keeping it as well, some of which have been mentioned here. The only thing that has happened that is unusual is that someone with a lot to gain by breaking legal confidentiality went ahead and did it.


give them a ahl team..that wont cost 40 million in losses +23 million in tax payers dollars a year.......if hockey is loved in phx theres your hockey ...its working in Manitoba



...more affordable for them ....grow the game in phx

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08-04-2009, 12:51 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Crazy_Ike View Post
Bettman never said "everything is rosy". That is one of the lies trotted out by his haters on a frequent basis. He said the team was in no danger of folding or being forced to move - which it wasn't, until Moyes stabbed the league in the back and pushed it into bankruptcy to make an extra buck.

Once again, had it not been for Moyes, the team would have changed hands with none of this happening, everything would have proceeded business as usual and we'd have spent the summer discussing the Blackhawks.
How can you say that?
Or are you saying that had Moyes waited for Gary to bring in the "flying in" offer, that mystery bidder (JR?) would have taken the team without any concessions?
WE see now that JR was that mystery buyer and he sure seems to want a lot of concessions from the city and from the league. (I would too)
You're saying he wouldn't have wanted those concessions had Moyes not filed for bankruptcy?
Or if he had, he would have been able to make a deal in May/June?

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08-04-2009, 12:57 PM
  #111
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This thread moves too darn fast!

I find it slightly amusing that all this is over ice hockey in the desert.

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08-04-2009, 12:57 PM
  #112
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My guess is there won't be a single auction for the reasons you cite, but we'll probably know more tomorrow. One other thing to point out: Balsillie's offer is contingent on several things including relocation and locking in all relocation costs to the NHL. The offer contains the right to walk away if they disagree with the NHL's relocation fee for example.

Things that would need to be resolved for Balsillie's bid to be successful:
- Does the court have authority to force the NHL to accept Balsillie as an owner?
- Does the court have authority to force the NHL to let the team relocate?
- How much can/will the NHL collect in relocation fees?
- How much can/will the NHL collect in indemnity fees?
- What are the damages and other effects for breaking the Glendale lease?
- Does Glendale have a right to specific performance?

I don't see any way that can all get litigated in Balsillie's favor in time for a September purchase/relocation.
As much as I'd love to see a team in Hamilton, I hope the answer is NO.

It would have potentially dangerous ramifications in the sports world if a court has that power.

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08-04-2009, 12:58 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Crazy_Ike View Post
Bettman never said "everything is rosy". That is one of the lies trotted out by his haters on a frequent basis. He said the team was in no danger of folding or being forced to move - which it wasn't, until Moyes stabbed the league in the back and pushed it into bankruptcy to make an extra buck.

Once again, had it not been for Moyes, the team would have changed hands with none of this happening, everything would have proceeded business as usual and we'd have spent the summer discussing the Blackhawks.
When reading into all sides here it appears very much that Moyes may well have been stabbed in the back first , its about the same as us GB haters as you call us saying all that is bad is his fault , there appears to be way more behind the scenes events in this case and many guilty parties not just one.

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08-04-2009, 01:02 PM
  #114
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It would have potentially dangerous ramifications in the sports world if a court has that power.
I disagree. The best thing that could happen to north american sports is for the current monopolistic and monolithic "league" system to get pulled down. Move to promotion/relegation system with universal free agency.

 
Old
08-04-2009, 01:04 PM
  #115
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Are you saying that you're OK with the citizens of Phoenix picking up an additional $100,000,000 more in debt over the next 5 years and with no guarantee the team will stay?
WOW!!
Because that's what would be happening!!
Are you saying that you're OK with the taxpayers in Ontario forking over $120,000,000 to Balsillie so he can get luxury suites in Copps?

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08-04-2009, 01:05 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Crazy_Ike View Post
Luckily, the judge is encouraging competition from multiple bids and will frown mighty heavily on illegal disclosure of confidential information as Moyes just did.

At the very least, Moyes guaranteed the NHL and, if he chooses to be involved, Reinsdorf have ample ammunition for appeal now. Thanks Moyes!

I have read what media posts i can find and it points to a taxpayer
[maybe an insider who fed Moyes info]
who was unhappy with COG playing favorites and exposed a deal that would have COG taxpayers paying no matter what happens to the Coyotes , even if you are GB side you have to see this easily , im a taxpayer and would be unhappy finding out i was put in same position where i live.

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08-04-2009, 01:07 PM
  #117
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I disagree. The best thing that could happen to north american sports is for the current monopolistic and monolithic "league" system to get pulled down. Move to promotion/relegation system with universal free agency.
I just don't want to see situations where a team is put into bankruptcy and moved because a court says it's okay.
The league needs some control where franchises are located.
I'll soften my stance on forcing a court to order the league to accept a certain person but not into allowing a court to order re-location.

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08-04-2009, 01:09 PM
  #118
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My guess is there won't be a single auction for the reasons you cite, but we'll probably know more tomorrow. One other thing to point out: Balsillie's offer is contingent on several things including relocation and locking in all relocation costs to the NHL. The offer contains the right to walk away if they disagree with the NHL's relocation fee for example.

Things that would need to be resolved for Balsillie's bid to be successful:
- Does the court have authority to force the NHL to accept Balsillie as an owner?
- Does the court have authority to force the NHL to let the team relocate?
- How much can/will the NHL collect in relocation fees?
- How much can/will the NHL collect in indemnity fees?
- What are the damages and other effects for breaking the Glendale lease?
- Does Glendale have a right to specific performance?

I don't see any way that can all get litigated in Balsillie's favor in time for a September purchase/relocation.

The JB issues are tough ones NHL hates him so im sure they will do whatever they can to kill his chances .
COG now has a problem they were negotiating a deal for huge concessions and an out that paid JR for his effort i think that may be trouble when they try to sue anyone now they have dont this , i could be wrong but what would lawyers take from it.?

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08-04-2009, 01:09 PM
  #119
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Are you saying that you're OK with the taxpayers in Ontario forking over $120,000,000 to Balsillie so he can get luxury suites in Copps?
As a taxpayer of Ontario.....I AM

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08-04-2009, 01:14 PM
  #120
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Are you saying that you're OK with the taxpayers in Ontario forking over $120,000,000 to Balsillie so he can get luxury suites in Copps?
The difference is the Ontario taxpayers are being given a chance to think it over ahead of time - in Phoenix everyone (except whichever angel in CoG leaked this) is trying to keep it all hidden from taxpayers until the last possible moment.

It's not about the money, it's about transparency.

 
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08-04-2009, 01:14 PM
  #121
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Are you saying that you're OK with the taxpayers in Ontario forking over $120,000,000 to Balsillie so he can get luxury suites in Copps?
When the person involved is also pitching in money...yes!
When the franchise will be making money and contributing to the ecomony of the city and province....yes!
When there is no back door, under the table shady deals......yes!
When the franchise has support from a very vast majority of support from the citizens and politicians....yes!
When the owner involved is keen on owning the team and doesn't require an out clause of 5 years or else he takes his 'puck' and high tail it out of town!....yes.
When Balsillie doesn't require special subsidies to help pay for his team....yes.
When Balsillie is actually putting up real money...HIS MONEY to buy the team...yes!
When he doesn't own the arena and wants the landlord to upgrade his building to suit a new tenant as per 99.99% leases....yes!

Am i happy to see hockey fans lose their team?...NO


Any other questions?


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08-04-2009, 01:15 PM
  #122
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I disagree. The best thing that could happen to north american sports is for the current monopolistic and monolithic "league" system to get pulled down. Move to promotion/relegation system with universal free agency.
Sure just copy the rousing success of the English Premiership League.

That'll do it.

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08-04-2009, 01:15 PM
  #123
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How can you say that?
Or are you saying that had Moyes waited for Gary to bring in the "flying in" offer, that mystery bidder (JR?) would have taken the team without any concessions?
WE see now that JR was that mystery buyer and he sure seems to want a lot of concessions from the city and from the league. (I would too)
You're saying he wouldn't have wanted those concessions had Moyes not filed for bankruptcy?
Or if he had, he would have been able to make a deal in May/June?
Reinsdorf's offer before bankruptcy and what he is offering now are completely different. The league, in good faith, was trying to find an offer for Moyes that would give him as much of what he wants as possible while still following the league's priorities and bylaws.

I haven't seen anything to indicate whether or not Moyes knew this offer was coming before he suddenly bought into Rodier's plan to put the team in bankruptcy and allow it to be sold to Balsillie without an open auction and over the objections of the league (and you guys are talking about dirty tactics from the city? lol Balsillie's the dirtiest player in this, after Moyes, given his lies and stall tactics and refusal to hand over information). But whether he did or not, Reinsdorf wasn't dealing with creditors before then, he was dealing with Moyes (through the league).

Now he has to deal with creditors, and the entire basis of the offer shifted. He no longer needs to give Moyes anything, but other interests come to the forefront.

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08-04-2009, 01:16 PM
  #124
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Are you saying that you're OK with the taxpayers in Ontario forking over $120,000,000 to Balsillie so he can get luxury suites in Copps?
Of course they are. "Their" guy is the one getting it, that makes it okay.

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08-04-2009, 01:19 PM
  #125
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I disagree. The best thing that could happen to north american sports is for the current monopolistic and monolithic "league" system to get pulled down. Move to promotion/relegation system with universal free agency.
Why would this be a good thing?

For WHO would this be a good thing?

Do you think the games would be better if its a couple of stacked allstar teams in Toronto and Montreal and perhaps a couple other cities, and then "everyone else"?

Where money is everything and the only thing?

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