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[UPD] Marleau-Heatley speculation, etc.; 3-way trade debunked 9/10

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Old
08-05-2009, 11:57 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by 4thliner View Post
You know that there are player agents too involved here don't you?
Though I wonder, how would any player agent know?
It's not like GMs are talking to the agents all the time, telling them about possible deals.

They may get the occasional comment, like, your client isn't part of any deals right now. But I can't see a GM telling an agent about a trade before it's done, unless it's an obvious situation.

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08-05-2009, 11:58 AM
  #52
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So my second question would be, would you rather trade Michalek and Erhoff, or Vlasic and Clowe?

That's if course you guys have Michalek as the better player which I assumed...

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Old
08-05-2009, 11:59 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by sharkohol View Post
Why do you compare the two players based on one season as if it holds any weight?

One season does not reflect on a player's overall ability, we should know that by now given Marleau's horrible season 2 years ago and Cheechoo's amazing one in 06. At least throw out a different reason why Marleau would be a potentially better LW. Just sayin'.
I'm not comparing them based on just goals. I was discussing the article which implied that Heatley was somehow a solution for a missing LW. Marleau play LW last year and played nearly as well as Heatley from a goal scoring perspective. Yes, it was a high and low for the respective players, but I really don't care.

Here's my point of view. Scoring depth wins Cups, not concentrated scoring. This is why Ottawa hasn't won a Cup, and Pittsburgh has. Ottawa concentrated all their scoring skill on one line, and it put up great numbers. But when it comes to the playoffs, all opposing teams have to do is shut down that one line and it's over. Pittsburgh put Crosby on one line, Malkin on the next, Staal on the 3rd, and had guys like Kennedy and Talbot on their 3rd and 4th lines. They had scoriing depth. Detroit has this as well, the Zetterberg and Datsyuk sometimes playing apart, and Hudler , Draper, Filpulla, and others providing depth.

If the Sharks want to win a Cup, acquiring Heatley is the last thing they should do. What they need is to get some affordable depth scoring for the bottom 2 lines. They need to keep Marleau on a cheaper contract, reduce the cost of goal-tending, and add depth scoring. Having McGinn and Mitchell full time this year should help a bit on the 3rd, but they need a consistent 20-goal threat on the 3rd line at least.

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Old
08-05-2009, 11:59 AM
  #54
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PP points don't count for +/-
You learn something everyday!

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08-05-2009, 12:01 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by RammsteinGT View Post
Not to mention that Pickles was +15 and Error was -12 (and saw much more time on the PP)...

However, you can't deny that CE was far better than MEV in the playoffs. That said, no one was really great in the post-season.

Edit: Fun fact, Ehrhoff had 2 more points last season than Ottawa's highest scoring D-man, Kuba. Obviously, this isn't totally indicative of their skills due to the Senators' disappointing season, but interesting nonetheless.
Kuba scored 40 pts in 70 games.

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Old
08-05-2009, 12:02 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by DeJong View Post
So my second question would be, would you rather trade Michalek and Erhoff, or Vlasic and Clowe?

That's if course you guys have Michalek as the better player which I assumed...
I don't trade any of them (except maybe Clowe. I'm not totally sold on him yet) unless it's a massive overpayment coming back. And no, I do not consider Heatley a massive overpayment.

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Old
08-05-2009, 12:04 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by 4thliner View Post
You know that there are player agents too involved here don't you?

I don't know why any GM would leak stuff out, they should get black listed and Bryan Murray's been a long time GM in the NHL on a number of teams.

In an organizational level I think it is hard to keep on the hush on any potential deal especially for a player of Heatley's stature in a hockey market. There are about dozen scouting staff members involved and team officials and for a major or local paper to get to one of them for the right price to leak out some info for print is almost impossible to stop. You have to admit it creates some intrigue if not excitement when potential names in discussions come out. Even though deals that get done and those that don't come out and are quick and sudden.
Yeah, it'd be really bad form if DW or Murray were the leaks so agree, doubtful it's them. Likely scouts or other team officials.

One thing I think is somewhat safe to assume is the leak wasn't perpetuated by a Bay Area/San Jose media rep since we really only have 1 full-time media covering the Sharks (Pollack) and he's very conservative (in a good way) - i.e., not a speculator like Brooks or Garrioch.

I'm not saying it was Brennan or Garrioch but it is curious to me that most of the leaks of which players are involved have a slant of "that's not enough for the Sens". Seems that there's an agenda here more than simply trying to get the scoop.

In any case, just hope this saga ends one way or the other. It's really getting old hearing about Heater and how he does (or does not) fit on the Sharks.

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Old
08-05-2009, 12:36 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by DeJong View Post
So my second question would be, would you rather trade Michalek and Erhoff, or Vlasic and Clowe?

That's if course you guys have Michalek as the better player which I assumed...
I'll give you a blockbuster trade of Michalek, Clowe, Huskins and Cheechoo (12.6M) for Heatley, Foligno, Winchester and Ruutu (10.3M).

Heatley (7.5) - Thornton (7.2) - Setoguchi (1.25)
Marleau (6.3) - Pavelski (1.6) - Foligno (.850)
McGinn (.750)??? - Mitchell (.750)??? - Winchester (.550)
Shelley (.725) - Nichol (.750) - Ruutu (1.3)

Boyle (6.66) - Lukowich (1.56)
Blake (3.5) - Vlasic (3.1)
Ehrhoff (3.1) - Murray (2.5)

Nabokov (5.375)
Griess (.850)???

56.2M cap hit with 600K for a call-up.

When east meets west, it's deadly.

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Old
08-05-2009, 12:42 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by CrazedZooChimp View Post
Unless it's the playoffs, then Vlasic is about as useful as Semenov, and Ehrhoff is the best defensman (except Boyle, although Todd, and before him RW, play Ehrhoff the most minutes by quite a margin).

Aren't there like 4 threads from earlier this summer already? Ehrhoff is more important to this team if they want to win sooner rather than later. And I'll let Easy get into how much better the powerplay was with Christian on it than Vlasic...
Vlasic has one horrible playoffs (along with the rest of our team), and suddenly he isn't useful. He is still only 22/23, and will get much, much better with experience.

I would take Vlasic over Ehrhoff every time ... he has much more long-term potential. While Ehrhoff may be slightly better right now, he will almost certainly not be in 2-3 years.

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Old
08-05-2009, 01:32 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by RammsteinGT View Post
I'll give you a blockbuster trade of Michalek, Clowe, Huskins and Cheechoo (12.6M) for Heatley, Foligno, Winchester and Ruutu (10.3M).
Lol, sure! We could also sneak into their locker rooms and steal their sticks and hockey pucks while we are at it!

Plus only a 20 man roster there

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Old
08-05-2009, 01:52 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Winky View Post
Vlasic has one horrible playoffs (along with the rest of our team), and suddenly he isn't useful. He is still only 22/23, and will get much, much better with experience.

I would take Vlasic over Ehrhoff every time ... he has much more long-term potential. While Ehrhoff may be slightly better right now, he will almost certainly not be in 2-3 years.

Vlasic also was crap in the 2007-08 playoffs vs. The Flames. Can't really remember how he did vs. The Stars. I do remember Ehrhoff's great pinch in game 5 that sprung the puck to Pavs for the game winner in OT.

In general, its a tough call...Vlasic's potential and Ehrhoff's raw skills. Vlasic plays a more conservative game - hence, he makes less obvious mistakes.
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Old
08-05-2009, 01:57 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Winky View Post
Vlasic has one horrible playoffs (along with the rest of our team), and suddenly he isn't useful. He is still only 22/23, and will get much, much better with experience.

I would take Vlasic over Ehrhoff every time ... he has much more long-term potential. While Ehrhoff may be slightly better right now, he will almost certainly not be in 2-3 years.
While I agree with this, I'm still cautioned by the fact we said similar things about Ehrhoff a couple years ago.

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Old
08-05-2009, 02:09 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Sleepy View Post
While I agree with this, I'm still cautioned by the fact we said similar things about Ehrhoff a couple years ago.
Do you mean 5 years ago? Because that would put Ehrhoff where Vlasic is right now.

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Old
08-05-2009, 02:13 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by sharks junkie View Post
Vlasic also was crap in the 2007-08 playoffs vs. The Flames. Can't really remember how he did vs. The Stars. I do remember Ehrhoff's great pinch in game 5 that sprung the puck to Pavs for the game winner in OT.

In general, its a tough call...Vlasic's potential and Ehrhoff's raw skills. Vlasic plays a more conservative game - hence, he makes less obvious mistakes.
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He was also like 20 years old. I'm pretty sure I also remember Ehrhoff costing us a game vs Dallas ... I think he iced the puck that led to the winning goal in OT. Point is, Ehrhoff was 25 at the time. Vlasic is 22. Big difference ... and for the defensive position, experience and learning are huge. And for a guy who is only 3 years in the league, and 22 years old, Vlasic is smarter than Ehrhoff, which is an enormous factor in how good a defensemen will be in the long run (i.e. Lidstrom, Nieds, etc.). Vlasic's hockey smarts are very much overlooked, and not mentioned nearly as much as they should be.

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Old
08-05-2009, 02:23 PM
  #65
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He was also like 20 years old. I'm pretty sure I also remember Ehrhoff costing us a game vs Dallas ... I think he iced the puck that led to the winning goal in OT. Point is, Ehrhoff was 25 at the time. Vlasic is 22. Big difference ... and for the defensive position, experience and learning are huge. And for a guy who is only 3 years in the league, and 22 years old, Vlasic is smarter than Ehrhoff, which is an enormous factor in how good a defensemen will be in the long run (i.e. Lidstrom, Nieds, etc.). Vlasic's hockey smarts are very much overlooked, and not mentioned nearly as much as they should be.
Vlasic is smart but hes also soft. If we can get him to put on about 15 to 20lbs of muscle it would be solid

Milan, Luko, 2nd rounder to Sens for heater
Cheech to the Wild for a 3rd rounder

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Old
08-05-2009, 02:37 PM
  #66
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http://tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=286562

im probly late to the party here but everyone seen this?

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Old
08-05-2009, 02:44 PM
  #67
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Lol, sure! We could also sneak into their locker rooms and steal their sticks and hockey pucks while we are at it!

Plus only a 20 man roster there
Fine! You drive a hard bargain. We'll deal Murray for someone about a million cheaper and revel in the cap room that the organization so desires.

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08-05-2009, 02:53 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by stanley cup pleeease View Post
http://tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=286562

im probly late to the party here but everyone seen this?

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Old
08-05-2009, 03:24 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Winky View Post
He was also like 20 years old. I'm pretty sure I also remember Ehrhoff costing us a game vs Dallas ... I think he iced the puck that led to the winning goal in OT. Point is, Ehrhoff was 25 at the time. Vlasic is 22. Big difference ... and for the defensive position, experience and learning are huge. And for a guy who is only 3 years in the league, and 22 years old, Vlasic is smarter than Ehrhoff, which is an enormous factor in how good a defensemen will be in the long run (i.e. Lidstrom, Nieds, etc.). Vlasic's hockey smarts are very much overlooked, and not mentioned nearly as much as they should be.
My wish is DW trades neither. I think they are both too valuable. I just dislike all the "Error"-hoff chatter (not directed at you, Winky). I think there's too much man-love for Pickles.

However, if we get HEater w/o dealing Marleau, I just don't know how it works out capwise this year and next... Seems like one of these 2 dmen have to be dealt.

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08-05-2009, 04:21 PM
  #70
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I suggest Kovalchuk, Parise, and Kessel for the win.

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Old
08-05-2009, 04:27 PM
  #71
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We all now Heatley is going to be traded to the Sharks,its just just a matter of time.

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08-05-2009, 05:02 PM
  #72
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We all now Heatley is going to be traded to the Sharks,its just just a matter of time.
i think you are probably right. but who is going the other way is the question...

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Old
08-05-2009, 05:05 PM
  #73
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I posted this in a thread in the trade board, but it's something I want folks to think about when they are advocating moving players:
----------------
* Vlasic has only been the in the league for 3 years.
* Ehrhoff has been in 4.5 seasons.
* Murray has played 2 full seasons, and 2 half seasons before that (and didn't play in the playoffs for either of those 2 half seasons).
* Pavelski has been in the league for 2.5 seasons.
* Setoguchi has been in the league for 1.5 seasons.
* Clowe has played less than 2 full seasons in the league, spread out over 4 years.
* Michalek has been in the league for 4 years.
* Mitchell has been in the league for 1 season.
* McGinn has been in the league less than 1 full season.


The only guys on that list who are even 25 or older are Clowe (26), Pavelski (25), Ehrhoff (27), and Murray (29). That's 3 of the top-6 D, including 2 of the top 3; 4 of the top 6 forwards; and 2 of the 3 players on the 3rd line; who have all been in the league for 4 years or less. In some cases quite a bit less. The only 3 who have even played in all 4 recent playoff series are Ehrhoff, Clowe and Michalek, who were all rookies when the Sharks recent playoff run started. The fact that the Sharks younger players have performed as well as they have is a testament to the players. But anyone who has been expecting these guys to carry the team to the Cup at this stage in their development is deluded.

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Old
08-05-2009, 05:12 PM
  #74
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i think you are probably right. but who is going the other way is the question...
Maybe it's simply a matter of when the Sens will accept DW's alleged offer of Cheechoo, Ehrhoff, and a 1st. Sure they allegedly rejected it, but as time passes and no other deals can be done, Murray may "have" to accept this deal so the Sens can move on.

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08-05-2009, 05:17 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by ChompChomp View Post
Maybe it's simply a matter of when the Sens will accept DW's alleged offer of Cheechoo, Ehrhoff, and a 1st. Sure they allegedly rejected it, but as time passes and no other deals can be done, Murray may "have" to accept this deal so the Sens can move on.
I doubt it.

I think we'll see DW sweeten, but it was such a lowball in the first place...

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