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Jari or Teemu for peak?

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Old
08-30-2014, 08:17 PM
  #1
TAnnala
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Jari or Teemu for peak?

Would love to hear some ideas from the respectable community of HOH.

As we all agree, Finland has two real super-stars in our hockey history. Funnily enough, both of them are RW's. In a battle for the best Finnish peak ever, which one you think was better? I am not going to spend time listing numbers, cause I believe most people here remember the careers of these two truly all-time greats.

Here's a video of both of these guys talking together. Jari Kurri came to honor Selanne on reaching 600 NHL goals. Funnily enough, Teemu and Jari briefly talk about their defensive game. It starts from 4:20. But the whole short clip is worth watching.


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08-30-2014, 08:39 PM
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TAnnala
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Just to make it so much harder, I'm gonna post few more videos here:



(this series is worth watching)

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08-30-2014, 11:59 PM
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begbeee
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Teemu Selanne was arguably the TOP 3 player for a brief moment in late 90s and was perennial candidate (see: not a nominee) for Hart Trophy, something Kurri could just dream of. And it's not like he was stucked only behind Wayne & Mario.
Adjusted numbers work for Teemu's favour, so the real question is - is perennial Selke defense enough to close the gap?

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08-31-2014, 12:31 AM
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Sprague Cleghorn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
Teemu Selanne was arguably the TOP 3 player for a brief moment in late 90s and was perennial candidate (see: not a nominee) for Hart Trophy, something Kurri could just dream of. And it's not like he was stucked only behind Wayne & Mario.
Adjusted numbers work for Teemu's favour, so the real question is - is perennial Selke defense enough to close the gap?
Kurri's playoff resume is also much better than Selanne's.

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08-31-2014, 01:13 AM
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Kurri's playoff resume is also much better than Selanne's.
So were the teams he played for.

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08-31-2014, 05:31 AM
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selanne, pretty easily.

kurri benefitted from 80s + playing with gretzky.

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08-31-2014, 06:07 AM
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This exact question was done as a poll one year ago, and Kurri won 30 to 24.

The post above is a good example of "logic" I cannot understand. How is Kurri penalized for being the perfect complement to the game's greatest player and for being a key contributor to one of the greatest teams? That does not make sense.

It is more logical to say that Kurri should get more credit for being Gretzky's perfect compliment and for being a key (at the times, the key) contributor to a great dynasty.

My own answer to this question is -- they're about even.

Having said that, here are things Kurri did with Edmonton:
-- 50 goals in (his first) 50 games
-- led NHL in goals
-- led playoffs in goals 4 times in 5 years (5 game-winners in '87 alone)
-- left Oilers as #1 NHL playoff goal scorer of all time

and things he did in Edmonton after Gretzky left:
-- 2nd-team NHL All-Star
-- 8th highest scorer in the NHL (better than the year before with Gretzky)
-- set-up OT winner in the longest game in Finals' history (Game 1, 1990); then scored 3 goals and 2 assists on the road in game 2 to effectively kill Boston and win the Cup again for Edmonton


For career, I can certainly see the case for Selanne, especially because of his late-career (2005-2007) renaissance, which Kurri never had. But for peak, they're about even, with a slight edge to Kurri. And if you include playoff results/performance, Kurri all the way.

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08-31-2014, 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by The Panther View Post
This exact question was done as a poll one year ago, and Kurri won 30 to 24.

The post above is a good example of "logic" I cannot understand. How is Kurri penalized for being the perfect complement to the game's greatest player and for being a key contributor to one of the greatest teams? That does not make sense.

It is more logical to say that Kurri should get more credit for being Gretzky's perfect compliment and for being a key (at the times, the key) contributor to a great dynasty.

My own answer to this question is -- they're about even.

Having said that, here are things Kurri did with Edmonton:
-- 50 goals in (his first) 50 games
-- led NHL in goals
-- led playoffs in goals 4 times in 5 years (5 game-winners in '87 alone)
-- left Oilers as #1 NHL playoff goal scorer of all time

and things he did in Edmonton after Gretzky left:
-- 2nd-team NHL All-Star
-- 8th highest scorer in the NHL (better than the year before with Gretzky)
-- set-up OT winner in the longest game in Finals' history (Game 1, 1990); then scored 3 goals and 2 assists on the road in game 2 to effectively kill Boston and win the Cup again for Edmonton


For career, I can certainly see the case for Selanne, especially because of his late-career (2005-2007) renaissance, which Kurri never had. But for peak, they're about even, with a slight edge to Kurri. And if you include playoff results/performance, Kurri all the way.
well even jari kurri knows/admits that selanne is greatest finn player of all time, he would say it 10 times out of 10.

and these polls, should never speak as they were an absolute truths.

but once again, my opinion, neither kurri's opinion is an absolute truth so...

we can post 5 pages of stats and facts but there's no absolutely truth.

you're forgetting the internation career as well, selanne is all time leader in goals and points in olympic history as well so it kinda overshadows kurri's playoff resume.

but if you say it's kurri, i have nothing against it.

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08-31-2014, 09:45 AM
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Peak was Selanne but Career was Kurri.

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08-31-2014, 01:41 PM
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Give Selanne Gretzky in 92-93, and I don't even mean prime Gretzky, just trade Gretz to the Jets that year. Selanne scores 100.

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09-01-2014, 04:58 PM
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I think people forget one thing here about Kurri. We all look at Selanne and see 76 goals in 1993. That was great, no question. But Kurri scored 71 and 68 at one point. The scoring levels were similar, so it's debatable. Yes, I know there is the Gretzky factor, but can't we reward Kurri for a few things here too? His defensive play probably opened up the door a bit more for Gretzky. Obviously Gretzky doesn't need any charity, but then why does Kurri need so much? He did rather well for himself in 1989 and 1990 without Gretzky right? Shouldn't we admit that he was just a great player in his own right?

If it is 1985, man, I would lose a bit of sleep if I traded Kurri for Selanne. I'd hate to give up on a prime Kurri because of his all-around play. So I'll have to pick Kurri.

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09-02-2014, 06:31 AM
  #12
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Originally Posted by Pegi90 View Post
well even jari kurri knows/admits that selanne is greatest finn player of all time
And what would Selanne say if we asked him...?

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09-02-2014, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Tam O Shanter View Post
Give Selanne Gretzky in 92-93, and I don't even mean prime Gretzky, just trade Gretz to the Jets that year. Selanne scores 100.
Just like Robitailles goalstotal skyrocketed after Gretzky arrived... Just like when Hull got Gretzky (even if small sample)... Or just like when Heatley got Thornton... Or for that mather when Kariya and Selänne went to Colorado (even if injuries played a big part there...)... And so on... It doesn´t work like that. Great players sure benefit from each other, but the increase in points that people expect are ridicilous. It´s often the lesser players playing with great players that see their point totals rise in that way. Or the perfect matches like Nicholls/Gretzky or Brown/Lemieux or whole lines like Legion Of Doom or the Pizza Line.

And especially if the trade is for Phil Housley, who was the perfect match for the finnish rocket at the time. With Gretzky there the whole gameplan for the Jets changes. I think rookie Tkachuk or for that mather Steen, who might have been asked to play the "Kurri-role", would have benefited more on that team if the Jets would have been the Gretzky show instead of the Selänne show.

As for the original question. It´s close, but I prefer the complete game of Kurri while still putting up great points before the flashier of Selänne.

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09-02-2014, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I think people forget one thing here about Kurri. We all look at Selanne and see 76 goals in 1993. That was great, no question. But Kurri scored 71 and 68 at one point. The scoring levels were similar, so it's debatable. Yes, I know there is the Gretzky factor, but can't we reward Kurri for a few things here too? His defensive play probably opened up the door a bit more for Gretzky. Obviously Gretzky doesn't need any charity, but then why does Kurri need so much? He did rather well for himself in 1989 and 1990 without Gretzky right? Shouldn't we admit that he was just a great player in his own right?

If it is 1985, man, I would lose a bit of sleep if I traded Kurri for Selanne. I'd hate to give up on a prime Kurri because of his all-around play. So I'll have to pick Kurri.
All of us are probably educated enough that 1993 was not even Selanne´s peak.
Throw in some adjusted numbers to compare goals and points output and you clear see that Selanne produced bigger numbers for longer.
If you would trade them in 1985 (assuming they are the same age), you would get Selanne entering his 2nd prime and player with great longevity. On the other hand "your" Kurri would become rather quickly declining player.

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09-02-2014, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
All of us are probably educated enough that 1993 was not even Selanne´s peak.
Throw in some adjusted numbers to compare goals and points output and you clear see that Selanne produced bigger numbers for longer.
If you would trade them in 1985 (assuming they are the same age), you would get Selanne entering his 2nd prime and player with great longevity. On the other hand "your" Kurri would become rather quickly declining player.
In 1985 Kurri was not a declining player at all. He had plenty left in the tank then. Alright, let's say this is a 1999 Selanne. Or 1998. He's at the peak of his powers as far as I am concerned. It is still hard to take him over Kurri in 1985. It can be argued that Kurri was the second best player in the NHL at this time. The guy was a gem defensively. Think about this, starting in 1983 he finished 2, 3, 4, and 5 in Selke voting. Had a couple of other top 10 finishes later on. But in 1985 he scored 71 goals and 135 points. Only Gretzky surpassed him in both categories. Then in the postseason he had 19 goals, to this day still a record shared with Reggie Leach.

So you've got a 70 goal scorer who nearly wins the Selke.

I'm sorry, adjust all you want, Selanne never had a season like that, and this is even taking into account the Gretzky factor. Selanne wasn't great defensively let's remember.

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09-02-2014, 11:50 AM
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I'll go with Selanne.

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09-02-2014, 12:11 PM
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As I said before, I'd call their 7 or 8-year peaks about even.

But if we're talking about one season, it is interesting to compare 1984-85 Kurri to 1992-93 Selanne (regular seasons, that is -- obviously Kurri destroys Selanne in playoffs). Each player produced their respective highest goal and point totals in that season (it can be argued that each had better seasons later -- Selanne twice led the lower-scoring League in goals while with Anaheim, and Kurri in fact led the League in goals a year after his 71 goal season [with 68], and a year after that finished 2nd in League scoring.)

Anyway, the basic stats are:

1984-85 Kurri (finishes 2nd in goals, 2nd in points)
GP73 G71 A64 P135 +/- +76 GWG13 Shots261 Sh%27.2
(Kurri scored 14 of 71 goals on the power-play.)

1992-93 Selanne (finished tied for 1st in goals, tied for 5th in points)
GP84 G76 A56 P132 +/- +8 GWG7 Shots387 Sh%19.6
(Selanne scored 24 of 76 goals on the power-play.)

In 1984-85, the average team scored 311 goals, while Edmonton scored 401. In 1992-93, the average team scored 305 goals, while Winnipeg scored 322. Edmonton in '85 finished 29 games over .500, while Winnipeg in '93 was only 3 games over .500.

Not surprisingly, then, Selanne dominates the Jets' 1993 scoring far more than Kurri did Edmonton's (well, obviously, since he played with peak Gretzky). By himself, he scores 76 of 322 goals, while Kurri scores 71 of about 370 (I'm guessing how many goals they scored when he missed 7 games). Advantage Selanne, particularly in individual importance to team.

But Kurri played 73 games to Selanne's 84. That means Teemu played 11 more matches. Kurri in that many games would have had about 83 goals and 152 points!

Even factoring in that he played on a far better team, Kurri scored a disproportionately high number of game winners and had a better shot percentage.


I don't know what this all boils down to. I conclude that they're about even in many ways, including at the level of single highest-scoring season.


Last edited by The Panther: 09-02-2014 at 05:08 PM.
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09-02-2014, 04:27 PM
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One other thing I will add for Selanne is his leadership qualities. He was a great leader every time he put on that blue and white jersey. Simply unstoppable.

That said, I still will go with Kurry. A monster in playoffs, a scoring machine, with two-way play to match.

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09-02-2014, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Panther View Post
As I said before, I'd call their 7 or 8-year peaks about even.

But if we're talking about one season, it is interesting to compare 1984-85 Kurri to 1992-93 Selanne (regular seasons, that is -- obviously Kurri destroys Selanne in playoffs). Each player produced their respective highest goal and point totals in that season (it can be argued that each had better seasons later -- Selanne twice led the lower-scoring League in goals while with Anaheim, and Kurri in fact led the League in goals a year after his 71 goal season [with 68], and a year after that finished 2nd in League scoring.)

Anyway, the basic stats are:

1984-85 Kurri (finishes 2nd in goals, 2nd in points)
GP73 G71 A64 P135 +/- +76 GWG13 Shots261 Sh%27.2
(Kurri scored 14 of 71 goals on the power-play.)

1992-93 Selanne (finished tied for 1st in goals, tied for 5th in points)
GP84 G76 A56 P132 +/- +8 GWG7 Shots387 Sh%19.6
(Selanne scored 24 of 76 goals on the power-play.)

In 1984-85, the average team scored 311 goals, while Edmonton scored 401. In 1992-93, the average team scored 305 goals, while Winnipeg scored 322. Edmonton in '85 finished 29 games over .500, while Winnipeg in '93 was only 3 games over .500.

Not surprisingly, then, Selanne dominates the Jets' 1993 scoring far more than Kurri did Edmonton's (well, obviously, since he played with peak Gretzky). By himself, he scores 76 of 322 goals, while Kurri scores 71 of about 370 (I'm guess how many goals they scored when he missed 7 games). Advantage Selanne, particularly in individual importance to team.

But Kurri played 73 games to Selanne's 84. That means Teemu played 11 more matches. Kurri in that many games would have had about 83 goals and 152 points!

Even factoring in that he played on a far better team, Kurri scored a disproportionately high number of game winners and had a better shot percentage.


I don't know what this all boils down to. I conclude that they're about even in many ways, including at the level of single highest-scoring season.
Problem is it's debatable what Selanne's best year even is, but I think most would agree he was at his best in the late 90s. He was the runner-up for the Art Ross twice behind prime Jagr who was amidst his 4 straight scoring titles. He also won 2 straight goal scoring titles and came in 2nd by one goal during this period. In fact, from 1992-93 to 1999-00 only Jagr outscored Selanne, with a reasonable gap between him and 3rd place Sakic.

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09-02-2014, 05:53 PM
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Problem is it's debatable what Selanne's best year even is, but I think most would agree he was at his best in the late 90s. He was the runner-up for the Art Ross twice behind prime Jagr who was amidst his 4 straight scoring titles. He also won 2 straight goal scoring titles and came in 2nd by one goal during this period. In fact, from 1992-93 to 1999-00 only Jagr outscored Selanne, with a reasonable gap between him and 3rd place Sakic.
You're right, but you can say many of the same things about Kurri in comparison to Gretzky (who, after all, pips Jagr and Sakic by weight of player comparison).

For example, from 1982-83 through 1989-90, Kurri was the #1 goal scorer in the NHL (except for that guy called Gretzky). Jari easily beats Goulet, Hawerchuk, and Gartner over this period. Over the same period, he was also 2nd in points -- beating Coffey, Hawerchuk, Messier, and Savard.

Kurri was runner-up for the Art Ross twice behind prime Gretzky.

While Kurri won only one goals-title (1986), he was first in goals-per-game twice, and was top 4 for four seasons in a row.


So, I don't really see any advantage to Selanne in the figures you quote. Kurri matches them, while benefiting from/competing with prime Gretzky.


The one clear advantage Selanne's (regular season) career has over Kurri's is his longevity and sustained peaks. Selanne seemed to have one peak in 1992-93, another in the late 90s, and a final one after the 2005 lockout ended.

However, this thread is about each player's peak (singular). So, would you rather have the guy who was beaten only by Gretzky for 7 years while scoring consistently, or the guy who was beaten only by Jagr, but scoring quite inconsistently?

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09-02-2014, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by The Panther View Post
You're right, but you can say many of the same things about Kurri in comparison to Gretzky (who, after all, pips Jagr and Sakic by weight of player comparison).

For example, from 1982-83 through 1989-90, Kurri was the #1 goal scorer in the NHL (except for that guy called Gretzky). Jari easily beats Goulet, Hawerchuk, and Gartner over this period. Over the same period, he was also 2nd in points -- beating Coffey, Hawerchuk, Messier, and Savard.

Kurri was runner-up for the Art Ross twice behind prime Gretzky.

While Kurri won only one goals-title (1986), he was first in goals-per-game twice, and was top 4 for four seasons in a row.


So, I don't really see any advantage to Selanne in the figures you quote. Kurri matches them, while benefiting from/competing with prime Gretzky.


The one clear advantage Selanne's (regular season) career has over Kurri's is his longevity and sustained peaks. Selanne seemed to have one peak in 1992-93, another in the late 90s, and a final one after the 2005 lockout ended.

However, this thread is about each player's peak (singular). So, would you rather have the guy who was beaten only by Gretzky for 7 years while scoring consistently, or the guy who was beaten only by Jagr, but scoring quite inconsistently?
I think that Selanne's peak was clearly in the late 90s:

1996-97: 2nd in goals (to Tkachuk who scored a lot of ENGs), 2nd in points (to Mario Lemieux)
1997-98: 1st in goals (tied with Bondra), 8th in points in 73 games, 2nd in Hart voting
1998-99: 1st in goals, 2nd in points (to Jagr)

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09-02-2014, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by The Panther View Post
You're right, but you can say many of the same things about Kurri in comparison to Gretzky (who, after all, pips Jagr and Sakic by weight of player comparison).

For example, from 1982-83 through 1989-90, Kurri was the #1 goal scorer in the NHL (except for that guy called Gretzky). Jari easily beats Goulet, Hawerchuk, and Gartner over this period. Over the same period, he was also 2nd in points -- beating Coffey, Hawerchuk, Messier, and Savard.

Kurri was runner-up for the Art Ross twice behind prime Gretzky.

While Kurri won only one goals-title (1986), he was first in goals-per-game twice, and was top 4 for four seasons in a row.


So, I don't really see any advantage to Selanne in the figures you quote. Kurri matches them, while benefiting from/competing with prime Gretzky.


The one clear advantage Selanne's (regular season) career has over Kurri's is his longevity and sustained peaks. Selanne seemed to have one peak in 1992-93, another in the late 90s, and a final one after the 2005 lockout ended.

However, this thread is about each player's peak (singular). So, would you rather have the guy who was beaten only by Gretzky for 7 years while scoring consistently, or the guy who was beaten only by Jagr, but scoring quite inconsistently?
My point wasn't that Selanne surpassed Kurri, my point was using his 1992-93 season for his peak is a little disingenuous.

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09-02-2014, 08:45 PM
  #23
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I think that Selanne's peak was clearly in the late 90s:

1996-97: 2nd in goals (to Tkachuk who scored a lot of ENGs), 2nd in points (to Mario Lemieux)
1997-98: 1st in goals (tied with Bondra), 8th in points in 73 games, 2nd in Hart voting
1998-99: 1st in goals, 2nd in points (to Jagr)
3rd in Hart voting
2nd in the Sporting News Player Poll
1. Dominik Hasek, 98
2. Teemu Selanne, 69
3. Jaromir Jagr, 25


Top-five in Hart all three years
Top-three among skaters for the Hart every time
Top scorer at the 1998 Olympics

Agreed that it's pretty noticeable when he peaked as a player, even with the scattered spike seasons from 1993-2011 and the great Olympics in 1992, 2006, and 2014.


Kurri did enough to prove that he was a great player with or without Gretzky - though he wouldn't be the same 50-70 goal scorer without, but he didn't reach the same individual heights as Selanne (appearing on maybe one Hart ballot his entire career).

I think peak vs. peak is closer than career vs. career between them though, because Kurri had extra dimensions as a player.

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