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HOH Top 70 Players of All Time (2009)

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03-24-2011, 03:40 PM
  #401
TheDevilMadeMe
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In the era when the fwd pass was allowed in all 3 zones, but not across lines, a team's top puck moving defenseman functioned like a qb in American football - everything ran through him. And shore was the best of that era at this.

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03-24-2011, 03:55 PM
  #402
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Yeah, it's plausible. I probably wouldn't come to that conclusion under any methodology that I favour, though. I don't think I'd say under any circumstances that a 4-time hart winner is not as good as a 0-timer. We're talking about a 7-time blueline points leader vs. a 5-timer so I don't think he would be just 10% better offensively.
Yeah but in that era, defensemen were consistently top five in hart voting. I also find it odd that shore is a top ten all time player, but his contemporaries clancy and siebert are not even top 40.

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03-25-2011, 02:26 AM
  #403
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Yeah but in that era, defensemen were consistently top five in hart voting. I also find it odd that shore is a top ten all time player, but his contemporaries clancy and siebert are not even top 40.
A lot of what I read said that Clancy was often considered Shore's peer.. he probably deserves a rise in the rankings. But when it came time to vote on the MVP, it was Shore on top every time.

Seibert, not so much. We got it right with him, IMO. His all-star record is good but it includs WW2 and a string of 2nd teams behind converted forwards so it raises some (minor) doubts.

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03-25-2011, 11:02 AM
  #404
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A lot of what I read said that Clancy was often considered Shore's peer.. he probably deserves a rise in the rankings. But when it came time to vote on the MVP, it was Shore on top every time.

Seibert, not so much. We got it right with him, IMO. His all-star record is good but it includs WW2 and a string of 2nd teams behind converted forwards so it raises some (minor) doubts.
Yeah but 3 of Siebert's 2nd team all stars is when shore was a first team all star.

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03-26-2011, 07:07 PM
  #405
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Clancy could go a little higher. IMO, Park, Coffey, and Clancy should be ranked close to each other, just a bit behind Chelios, who is my 10th defenseman.

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04-14-2011, 10:31 AM
  #406
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When is the next HOH Top 100 version going to be released? Thanks.

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04-30-2011, 11:04 PM
  #407
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kind of shocked to see at #70 no mention of Brett Hull yet....not sure if I read that right, but if Brett Hull isnt in the top 70 players of all-time, then some serious crack be smokin!

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05-11-2011, 10:43 AM
  #408
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Personally I think such comparisons are impossible. At the very least 3 separate categories are needed: forwards, dmen and goaltenders. But since that is not being done here, I must say that Bobby Orr was in a class by himself and there is no way I can rate Gretzky ahead of him.

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05-30-2011, 09:00 AM
  #409
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kind of shocked to see at #70 no mention of Brett Hull yet....not sure if I read that right, but if Brett Hull isnt in the top 70 players of all-time, then some serious crack be smokin!
Pure goal scorers get really mixed reviews here. Some (like myself) value goal production more, others give more emphasis to the overall game. Kind of like the big puncher in boxing vs the skilled fighter.

In Hull's case, his detractors give much credit for his 3 extraordinary seasons to Adam Oates. Those were the only 3 years they played together.

I believe I ranked Hull 48th on my list. In retrospect, that may have been too high. But I'd still have him in the top 70.

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05-30-2011, 12:49 PM
  #410
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Nels Stewart isn't on the list yet, and I'd have to rate him ahead of Brett.

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05-31-2011, 05:11 PM
  #411
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Any way we could have a column that shows the teams each of the top 100 played on? I'm not familiar with all of them (I know, I'm a noob). It would add to the experience.

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05-31-2011, 05:17 PM
  #412
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Any way we could have a column that shows the teams each of the top 100 played on? I'm not familiar with all of them (I know, I'm a noob). It would add to the experience.
A worthwhile idea if we ever pick up this project again (which I hope we do).

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07-07-2011, 09:40 AM
  #413
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The fact Leetch is only at 100 on this list loses its credibility.

1000+ points
Hall of Fame
US Hall of Fame
Stanley Cup
Conn Smythe
Norris x 2
Calder
Olympic Silver
Over PPG in playoffs career
#2 all time scoring on a team with 80+ years

Easily greatest American born defenseman in NHL history.

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07-07-2011, 01:13 PM
  #414
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
The fact Leetch is only at 100 on this list loses its credibility.

1000+ points
Hall of Fame
US Hall of Fame
Stanley Cup
Conn Smythe
Norris x 2
Calder
Olympic Silver
Over PPG in playoffs career
#2 all time scoring on a team with 80+ years

Easily greatest American born defenseman in NHL history.
Actually, when you call Leetch "easily the greatest American born defenseman in NHL history" (ignoring Chelios), you kind of lose credibility yourself.

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07-07-2011, 01:53 PM
  #415
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I would probably leave Leetch out of the top 100 by now, he was only effective defensively for the middle part of his career. In his early years he was average and from 98-2003, he was brutal. He improved by 2004 but it was too late. Leetch should rank below salming and pronger.

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07-07-2011, 06:40 PM
  #416
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
I would probably leave Leetch out of the top 100 by now, he was only effective defensively for the middle part of his career. In his early years he was average and from 98-2003, he was brutal. He improved by 2004 but it was too late. Leetch should rank below salming and pronger.
False.

Unfortunately the Rangers were awful for half his career.

Same argument about Richter. Put Leetch and Richter on a better team majority of their careers and we don't debate these things.


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07-07-2011, 06:45 PM
  #417
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I would probably leave Leetch out of the top 100 by now, he was only effective defensively for the middle part of his career. In his early years he was average and from 98-2003, he was brutal. He improved by 2004 but it was too late. Leetch should rank below salming and pronger.
Considering Brian Leetch scored more points.

Won the Conn Smythe.

The only thing Chelios had over Leetch was a longer career and one more Norris.

I'd say the Conn Smythe heavily outweighs that extra Norris.

Leetch also played most of his career after breaking BOTH his ankles.

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07-07-2011, 07:44 PM
  #418
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Considering Brian Leetch scored more points.

Won the Conn Smythe.

The only thing Chelios had over Leetch was a longer career and one more Norris.

I'd say the Conn Smythe heavily outweighs that extra Norris.

Leetch also played most of his career after breaking BOTH his ankles.
So basically your argument for Leetch over Chelios is that Leetch scored more points? I guess you're one of those people who thinks Visnovsky should have won the last Norris and Mike Green the previous two?

Just for ***** and giggles, here are their comparable Norris records:

Chelios: 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 6th, 6th, 6th, 6th
Leetch: 1st, 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 5th, 8th, 11th, 11th

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07-07-2011, 07:50 PM
  #419
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One more Norris win and 2 more 2nd place finishes.

Leetch is unappreciated around here, but I'm not sure he should move up on the list very much. The guys he is competing with don't exactly have nothing their resumes either.

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07-07-2011, 09:23 PM
  #420
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
I'd say the Conn Smythe heavily outweighs that extra Norris.
Except chelios had a playoff just as strong in 1992. Hard to win the smythe when your competition is Lemieux.

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07-07-2011, 09:45 PM
  #421
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False.

Unfortunately the Rangers were awful for half his career.

Same argument about Richter. Put Leetch and Richter on a better team majority of their careers and we don't debate these things.

Sure the Rangers were bad but that doesn't have anything to do with his defensive ability, which at times was quite good and injuries no doubt contributed to his career.

At the end of the day there isn't really a strong argument that Chelios didn't have the stronger career as his defensive play trumps Leetch's peak IMO.

As The Deveilmademe pointed out his Norris voting record was much better overall than Leetch's and he also had a very nice playoff career as well.

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07-07-2011, 10:37 PM
  #422
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It's funny to see the "Rangers were crap from 98-04" sentiment slowly emerge over the years. How soon we forget.

The Rangers loaded up on high priced talent year after year, and proved to be one of the biggest underachievers in recent history. Those teams weren't crap, the end result was crap.

But 1994 Cup heroes Leetch and Richter always seem to get a free pass. In reality, if Leetch had been signed as a free agent from whomever in 1998, he'd get the same treatment as Bobby Holik when looking for scapegoats on those teams. Leetch is pretty much on the list for what he did from 1989-1997. Borderline top-100 isn't too shabby for a guy who was dominant for less than a decade in an era where several defensemen played at a HOF level for 15+ years.

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07-09-2011, 09:37 AM
  #423
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It's funny to see the "Rangers were crap from 98-04" sentiment slowly emerge over the years. How soon we forget.

The Rangers loaded up on high priced talent year after year, and proved to be one of the biggest underachievers in recent history. Those teams weren't crap, the end result was crap.

But 1994 Cup heroes Leetch and Richter always seem to get a free pass. In reality, if Leetch had been signed as a free agent from whomever in 1998, he'd get the same treatment as Bobby Holik when looking for scapegoats on those teams. Leetch is pretty much on the list for what he did from 1989-1997. Borderline top-100 isn't too shabby for a guy who was dominant for less than a decade in an era where several defensemen played at a HOF level for 15+ years.
LOL

Brian Leetch is #67 ALL-TIME in NHL scoring. #8 ALL-TIME for defensemen.

Unless you're a Ranger fan, you can not comment on who we would and would not call a "scapegoat".

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07-09-2011, 11:00 AM
  #424
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
LOL

Brian Leetch is #67 ALL-TIME in NHL scoring. #8 ALL-TIME for defensemen.

Unless you're a Ranger fan, you can not comment on who we would and would not call a "scapegoat".
So only fans of a team can comment on that team's players. Makes sense.

Lets just redraw the list based on the all-time scoring standings. Leetch shoots up to #67, though he now ranks behind fellow defenseman Phil Housley and Larry Murphy. Satisfied?

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07-09-2011, 12:05 PM
  #425
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So only fans of a team can comment on that team's players. Makes sense.

Lets just redraw the list based on the all-time scoring standings. Leetch shoots up to #67, though he now ranks behind fellow defenseman Phil Housley and Larry Murphy. Satisfied?
Behind 66 higher scorers. Behind how many goalies? Behind how many European players? Seems 100 might not be that far off after all.

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