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HOH Top 70 Players of All Time (2009)

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Old
01-06-2012, 09:31 AM
  #451
tarheelhockey
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Originally Posted by SuperSwede21 View Post
also suprised Selanne wasn't put in there. If Forsberg is in there, why not Teemu?
As noted above, the fact that the list was made in 2009 probably has a lot to do with it. He's currently working on his second PPG season since then, and setting aside Gordie Howe he stands to be far and away the best forward in league history over age 40... and making a case for the best skater. In the process he became a top-15 goal scorer, and will soon be a top-20 point scorer, and will join Jagr as the only two players from their peer group to achieve those distinctions (or to even come particularly close).

It's hard to say if he'd make the top-70 if the list was re-done today, but I have to think he'd rank over Kurri by now so he would certainly be in the conversation.

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01-06-2012, 10:33 AM
  #452
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I'd still rank Forsberg quite a bit ahead of Selanne. I think I said it before - Selanne should be ranked near Brett Hull.

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01-08-2012, 12:56 AM
  #453
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
As noted above, the fact that the list was made in 2009 probably has a lot to do with it. He's currently working on his second PPG season since then, and setting aside Gordie Howe he stands to be far and away the best forward in league history over age 40... and making a case for the best skater. In the process he became a top-15 goal scorer, and will soon be a top-20 point scorer, and will join Jagr as the only two players from their peer group to achieve those distinctions (or to even come particularly close).

It's hard to say if he'd make the top-70 if the list was re-done today, but I have to think he'd rank over Kurri by now so he would certainly be in the conversation.
To rate Selanne over Kurri you'd have to give playoffs almost no consideration at all IMO.

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01-09-2012, 01:26 AM
  #454
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You have Hasek ranked 12th and as the greatest Goalie of all time. I saw all of his career and I realize you're including international play. Some experts such as The Hockey News don't even have him as one of the top 16 post expansion players! Only including the post expansion players Roy and Brodeur are much better and even in the ATD I'd take Coffey over him and pick up Parent, Dryden, or Smith later.

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01-09-2012, 01:32 AM
  #455
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I'd still rank Forsberg quite a bit ahead of Selanne. I think I said it before - Selanne should be ranked near Brett Hull.
In The Hockey News' Top 60 Since 67 Hull is 22, Forsberg is 24, and Teemu did not make the top 60 list.

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01-09-2012, 09:11 AM
  #456
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Originally Posted by Johnny O View Post
You have Hasek ranked 12th and as the greatest Goalie of all time. I saw all of his career and I realize you're including international play. Some experts such as The Hockey News don't even have him as one of the top 16 post expansion players! Only including the post expansion players Roy and Brodeur are much better and even in the ATD I'd take Coffey over him and pick up Parent, Dryden, or Smith later.
Also, Hasek is not even in the top 10 all time in wins.

1 Martin Brodeur NJD 1991-1992 2011-2012 1,157 637 360 105 55 29,073 2,534 2.24 26,539 .913 116 68,017:01
2 Patrick Roy 1984-1985 2002-2003 1,029 551 315 131 29 28,349 2,546 2.54 25,803 .910 66 60,225:33
3 Ed Belfour 1988-1989 2006-2007 963 484 320 111 44 24,750 2,317 2.50 22,433 .906 76 55,695:55
4 Curtis Joseph 1989-1990 2008-2009 943 454 352 90 39 26,795 2,516 2.79 24,279 .906 51 54,054:03
5 Terry Sawchuk 1949-1950 1969-1970 971 447 330 172 2,389 103 57,194:00
6 Jacques Plante 1952-1953 1972-1973 837 437 246 145 1,964 82 49,533:00
7 Tony Esposito 1968-1969 1983-1984 886 423 306 151 1,825 2,563 1,602 76 52,585:00
8 Glenn Hall 1951-1952 1970-1971 906 407 326 163 2,222 84 53,484:00
9 Grant Fuhr 1981-1982 1999-2000 868 403 295 114 9 24,370 2,756 21,614 25 48,925:08
10 Chris Osgood 1993-1994 2010-2011 744 401

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01-09-2012, 09:25 AM
  #457
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Originally Posted by Johnny O View Post
Also, Hasek is not even in the top 10 all time in wins.

1 Martin Brodeur NJD 1991-1992 2011-2012 1,157 637 360 105 55 29,073 2,534 2.24 26,539 .913 116 68,017:01
2 Patrick Roy 1984-1985 2002-2003 1,029 551 315 131 29 28,349 2,546 2.54 25,803 .910 66 60,225:33
3 Ed Belfour 1988-1989 2006-2007 963 484 320 111 44 24,750 2,317 2.50 22,433 .906 76 55,695:55
4 Curtis Joseph 1989-1990 2008-2009 943 454 352 90 39 26,795 2,516 2.79 24,279 .906 51 54,054:03
5 Terry Sawchuk 1949-1950 1969-1970 971 447 330 172 2,389 103 57,194:00
6 Jacques Plante 1952-1953 1972-1973 837 437 246 145 1,964 82 49,533:00
7 Tony Esposito 1968-1969 1983-1984 886 423 306 151 1,825 2,563 1,602 76 52,585:00
8 Glenn Hall 1951-1952 1970-1971 906 407 326 163 2,222 84 53,484:00
9 Grant Fuhr 1981-1982 1999-2000 868 403 295 114 9 24,370 2,756 21,614 25 48,925:08
10 Chris Osgood 1993-1994 2010-2011 744 401
He's European, and had about half of his career outside of Europe. That's why.
And he was absolutely great outside of the NHL.

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01-09-2012, 09:31 AM
  #458
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Originally Posted by plusandminus View Post
He's European, and had about half of his career outside of Europe. That's why.
And he was absolutely great outside of the NHL.
True, but I've never seen any expert rank him ahead of Roy and Brodeur.

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01-09-2012, 09:53 AM
  #459
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Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
To rate Selanne over Kurri you'd have to give playoffs almost no consideration at all IMO.
You would also have to give consideration to Selanne playing out his best years carrying bad Winnipeg and Anaheim teams while Kurri played his entire prime on Gretzky's wing in Edmonton and LA. I don't see how you could fairly hold playoffs over Selanne's head, given that on the rare occasion he made them, he was a PPG player. But he only played 4 rounds before age 30 and his teams were never playoff built.

In 1993, the Jets scored 17 total goals in a 6-game series. Selanne was 4-2-6. The only other multi-goal scorers were Keith Tkachuk (4-0-4) and Darrin Shannon (2-4-6).

Next appearance was 1997, when the Mighty Ducks squeaked by Phoenix in 7 and then got swept by Detroit. In 11 games, the Ducks scored 25 goals. Selanne was 7-3-10 and Kariya 7-6-13. The other multi-goal scorers were Joe Sacco (2-0-2), Brian Bellows (2-4-6) and defenseman J.J. Daigneault (2-7-9). On that same team, playing all 11 games, Kurri was 1-2-3.

In 1999, the Mighty Ducks got back to the playoffs and were obliterated by Detroit again. Selanne scored 2 of the team's 6 goals in the series (2-2-4) with the only other multi-goal scorer being Marty McInnis (2-0-2).

Seriously, what could he have done to change the outcome in those situations?

When Selanne got a better chance late in his career, he had one disappointing playoff (Colorado) and then killed it in Anaheim considering his age. He led the Ducks in scoring at age 35 in a 3-round run in 2006 (6-8-14 in 16 games) and then scored one of the biggest goals in franchise history on the way to a Cup in 2007, tying Corey Perry (age 21) and finishing 2 points behind Ryan Getzlaf (age 21).

Kurri's numbers always looked good against the rest of the league, but looking at Edmonton in isolation shows a different picture. Kurri's scoring was always behind Gretzky, and usually not separated from Messier, Anderson and/or Coffey. Over the life of the dynasty he was slightly behind Gretzky in goal-scoring and miles behind him in points (about 0.75 points per game they played). After Gretzky left and the stage was set for Kurri to distinguish himself, he finished well behind Craig Simpson and 1 point ahead of Esa Tikkanen. He had one more good run with Gretzky, again finishing 4th in scoring on a stacked team, and that was it for his playoff performances of note.

Kurri certainly gets credit for being better than Selanne in the defensive game, but I don't see him being SO much better that it vaults him ahead of Selanne's strong-but-limited playoff scoring and the fact that he played well in his mid-30s when the opportunity to make long runs finally presented itself. Combined with Selanne's unquestionably superior regular-season record, I don't think Kurri's playoffs would do anything to keep Selanne from surpassing him at this point... unless you want to give him a LOT of personal credit for being in a plush situation in Edmonton.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny O View Post
True, but I've never seen any expert rank him ahead of Roy and Brodeur.
That's not significant unless you can provide examples of experts ranking them otherwise recently (ie, in full view of Hasek's career and Brodeur's late decline).


Last edited by tarheelhockey: 01-09-2012 at 10:30 AM.
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01-09-2012, 10:47 AM
  #460
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I don't think you can find two wings with more different defensive values than Kurri and Selanne. Selanne was one of the few players in the dead puck era who was encouraged to think all-offense (Kariya, Jagr, and Bure are others).

While Kurri was the guy who had to read the play and know when to sit back when Coffey was roving

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01-09-2012, 11:51 AM
  #461
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Originally Posted by Johnny O View Post
Also, Hasek is not even in the top 10 all time in wins.

1 Martin Brodeur NJD 1991-1992 2011-2012 1,157 637 360 105 55 29,073 2,534 2.24 26,539 .913 116 68,017:01
For as long as I live I will never understand this argument. You do realize that Brodeur is also the all time leader in losses? While Hasek is not even in the top 40?

Wins/losses is a terrible way of meassuring individual talent.

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01-09-2012, 11:58 AM
  #462
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I don't think you can find two wings with more different defensive values than Kurri and Selanne. Selanne was one of the few players in the dead puck era who was encouraged to think all-offense (Kariya, Jagr, and Bure are others).

While Kurri was the guy who had to read the play and know when to sit back when Coffey was roving
Kurri also frequently covered down low for Gretzky in the defensive zone, allowing Gretzky to play up high.

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01-09-2012, 12:18 PM
  #463
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Kurri also frequently covered down low for Gretzky in the defensive zone, allowing Gretzky to play up high.
Right. Kurri was certainly in a unique situation. He got to take passes from the best playmaker of all time, which you would think should help his stats a lot. But on the other hand, he probably had more defensive responsibilities than any other first line forward ofthe era, as the guy who sat back when Gretzky and Coffey went all-offense, something that would definitely hurt his stats.

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01-09-2012, 04:21 PM
  #464
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Right. Kurri was certainly in a unique situation. He got to take passes from the best playmaker of all time, which you would think should help his stats a lot.
Let's not forget he was also on the ice with Coffey, Anderson, Messier Fuhr... guys who were also pretty good at hockey. It wasn't just Gretzky inflating his stats but the whole team situation.

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But on the other hand, he probably had more defensive responsibilities than any other first line forward ofthe era, as the guy who sat back when Gretzky and Coffey went all-offense, something that would definitely hurt his stats.
It's true that he was the defensive conscience of his line, but I think this is overstating the case a bit. Gretzky's other wing was usually Dave Semenko, Mike Krushelnyski, or Esa Tikkanen, who were... not exactly firewagon hockey players. Tikkanen became a Selke contender.

Kurri had defensive responsibility, sure, but in what way were his duties greater than a guy who got stuck beside Brian Bellows or Steve Yzerman? And was it really harder on him to have to be the defensive conscience on a team that was often winning by 4 or 5 goals with a Hall of Fame goalie behind him?


Another thing to chip in here. I know adjusted points tend to skew against 1980s players, but Selanne's 711-792-1503 is a pretty large step beyond Kurri's 503-682-1185 and was accomplished without being on an impressive offensive team. It's hard for me to give Kurri 318 points' worth of credit for playing solid D. Selanne's adjusted total will soon pass Esposito into the top-10 all time. Kurri is #40 between Dale Hawerchuk and Aurele Joliat. He is getting ready to be bumped a few spots by Alfredsson, Thornton, and Iginla. The gap is already too large, IMO, to consider Kurri still ahead at this point. And it's growing as Selanne keeps playing like he's 10 years younger.

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01-09-2012, 05:32 PM
  #465
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True, but I've never seen any expert rank him ahead of Roy and Brodeur.
Being on TV doesn't make someone an expert.

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01-09-2012, 06:20 PM
  #466
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True, but I've never seen any expert rank him ahead of Roy and Brodeur.
Well, now you have.

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01-09-2012, 07:38 PM
  #467
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
You would also have to give consideration to Selanne playing out his best years carrying bad Winnipeg and Anaheim teams while Kurri played his entire prime on Gretzky's wing in Edmonton and LA. I don't see how you could fairly hold playoffs over Selanne's head, given that on the rare occasion he made them, he was a PPG player. But he only played 4 rounds before age 30 and his teams were never playoff built.

In 1993, the Jets scored 17 total goals in a 6-game series. Selanne was 4-2-6. The only other multi-goal scorers were Keith Tkachuk (4-0-4) and Darrin Shannon (2-4-6).

Next appearance was 1997, when the Mighty Ducks squeaked by Phoenix in 7 and then got swept by Detroit. In 11 games, the Ducks scored 25 goals. Selanne was 7-3-10 and Kariya 7-6-13. The other multi-goal scorers were Joe Sacco (2-0-2), Brian Bellows (2-4-6) and defenseman J.J. Daigneault (2-7-9). On that same team, playing all 11 games, Kurri was 1-2-3.

In 1999, the Mighty Ducks got back to the playoffs and were obliterated by Detroit again. Selanne scored 2 of the team's 6 goals in the series (2-2-4) with the only other multi-goal scorer being Marty McInnis (2-0-2).

Seriously, what could he have done to change the outcome in those situations?

When Selanne got a better chance late in his career, he had one disappointing playoff (Colorado) and then killed it in Anaheim considering his age. He led the Ducks in scoring at age 35 in a 3-round run in 2006 (6-8-14 in 16 games) and then scored one of the biggest goals in franchise history on the way to a Cup in 2007, tying Corey Perry (age 21) and finishing 2 points behind Ryan Getzlaf (age 21).

Kurri's numbers always looked good against the rest of the league, but looking at Edmonton in isolation shows a different picture. Kurri's scoring was always behind Gretzky, and usually not separated from Messier, Anderson and/or Coffey. Over the life of the dynasty he was slightly behind Gretzky in goal-scoring and miles behind him in points (about 0.75 points per game they played). After Gretzky left and the stage was set for Kurri to distinguish himself, he finished well behind Craig Simpson and 1 point ahead of Esa Tikkanen. He had one more good run with Gretzky, again finishing 4th in scoring on a stacked team, and that was it for his playoff performances of note.

Kurri certainly gets credit for being better than Selanne in the defensive game, but I don't see him being SO much better that it vaults him ahead of Selanne's strong-but-limited playoff scoring and the fact that he played well in his mid-30s when the opportunity to make long runs finally presented itself. Combined with Selanne's unquestionably superior regular-season record, I don't think Kurri's playoffs would do anything to keep Selanne from surpassing him at this point... unless you want to give him a LOT of personal credit for being in a plush situation in Edmonton.



That's not significant unless you can provide examples of experts ranking them otherwise recently (ie, in full view of Hasek's career and Brodeur's late decline).
I didn't intend my comment as a criticism of Selanne's playoff portfolio, but rather a glorification of Kurri's. Leading the playoffs in goals four times is something unparalled in the post-expansion era. 85 goals and 152 points in 132 playoff games during his prime, that's a phenomenal accomplishment and something that's tough for me to overlook.

Kurri was definitely in a better position to excel than Selanne, but he has to be given credit for taking such huge advantage of it.

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02-29-2012, 08:29 PM
  #468
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I feel like Mike Gartner is under-appreciated in this list.

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02-29-2012, 09:42 PM
  #469
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I feel like Mike Gartner is under-appreciated in this list.
We could triple the size of this list and still run out of room for Mike Gartner.

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02-29-2012, 09:47 PM
  #470
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We could triple the size of this list and still run out of room for Mike Gartner.
Never saw him play, but just looking at his stats...

6th most goals scored
15 Consecutive 30 goal seasons (Record)
17 30 goals seasons in total (Record)

Why isn't he as deserving?

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02-29-2012, 10:57 PM
  #471
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Never saw him play, but just looking at his stats...

6th most goals scored
15 Consecutive 30 goal seasons (Record)
17 30 goals seasons in total (Record)

Why isn't he as deserving?
Gartner is your classic compiler. Never at any point in his career was he considered one of the best players in the game or even his position really...I think he has a couple 4th place finishes in All Star voting. His career basically spans the highest scoring era in league history, so between that and the fact that for a good chunk of NHL history teams didn't play close to 80+ games a season, his career totals make him appear at first glance much better than he really is.

One top 10 finish in points, 5 in goal scoring, which was his strength, but only one of those was a top 5 and that was a 5th.

The 30 goal seasons are nice, but 30 goals in the high flying 80's was equal to somewhere around 20-25 goals in most other eras when you adjust for league scoring levels.

He was a good player, but not even sniffing the top 100 all time, and I think fairly easily outside the top 200 as well.

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03-01-2012, 12:34 AM
  #472
seventieslord
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Never saw him play, but just looking at his stats...

6th most goals scored
15 Consecutive 30 goal seasons (Record)
17 30 goals seasons in total (Record)

Why isn't he as deserving?
Here's a simple, logical way to put it.

Your short cursory argument is based on goal scoring. And it should be. Gartner was a good goal scorer and that was about all he did.

Gartner's 15 consecutive 30-goal seasons and 700+ goals look great, but they were a result of being born in just the right year and being able to play in the exact highest-scoring 15-year period hockey has ever seen. During that time there were better goal scorers, but some were older than him, some were younger, and others got injured a few times, causing them to miss out on interesting anomalies like his streak. He scored a lot of goals, but he wasn't the best goal scorer of his generation. He was once top-5 in goals (5th), something a couple hundred players have done. He was top-10 in goals 5 times (most often 9th or 10th), something 75 players have done. Even with all those 17 30-goal seasons, he was actually just top-20 in goal scoring 9 times, something 47 players have done. Sometimes he was as low as 45th in goals, but we look back at that "30" and see it as something special, but it wasn't. So he was a good goal scorer, but probably about the 8th-best regular season goalscorer of his generation, with peak and longevity both considered, behind Lemieux, Gretzky, Bossy, Robitaille, Yzerman, Goulet & Kurri.

But Gartner's generation (as I've defined it) is one of a dozen or so to have come and gone throughout the history of hockey. Don't dismiss earlier times just because scoring was lower or schedules were shorter. Many players with more impressive/dominant goal scoring records have played since Gartner, and many did before him. recognizing that more of the best players in history can be found in modern generations, I'm not going to just take the 8 from above and multiply it by 12. Let's go with 6 and say he's approximately the 48th-best regular season goalscorer of all-time.

But then, of course goals are not everything. you can say goals are more important than assists, but:

1) for the elite players of history, who tend to have a lot to do with every point they earn, an assist is arguably worth as much as a goal, and
2) points are indisputably worth more than goals.

Because he was never a player to get a lot of assists, Mike Gartner was top-20 in points just twice in his long career: 11th and 17th. I don't have to tell you that many, many players have a record of elite point production stronger than that. If looking at point production, Gartner probably drops to approximately the 150th-best regular season point producing forward of all-time.

Although offense in the regular season is nice, players with a playoff record of solid production are rightfully revered in hockey history. This doesn't mean Claude Lemieux is better than Gartner, but it does mean that a handful of players in history with regular season resumes close to Gartner's are "greater" players of all-time once their playoff records are considered. Let's say there are 10 of those. Making Gartner the 160th-best point producing forward of all-time.

Although offense is the most important thing for a forward, defense is important too. that doesn't mean Mike Grier is better than Gartner, but there are probably a good 10 more players in history whose offensive resumes closer to his, whose defensive skills make them better overall players than Gartner, making him the 170th-best forward of all-time.

Finally, the reality of hockey is that positions other than forward have as much of an impact on the game. Any serious all-time list should include a reasonable proportion of forwards, defensemen and goalies. If 60% of the players on an all-time list are forwards, then you're at approximately 280 before you get to the 170th forward. So you could say Mike Gartner is approximately the 280th-best player of all-time.

These are not meant to be exact figures, but just an illustration of how easy it is to run out of room for a player on a short and exclusive list like this. Though I do believe Mike Gartner should fall into the 280 range.

If you take a look at the all-time draft, a fantasy league where the best players of today and tomorrow come together to be drafted by 32 of the brightest hockey history minds on this board, Gartner was passed over 293 times before being selected. This is a competitive group of GMs, determined to outdo their colleagues in drafting and research and earn the title belt for the year. So if any of these 32 GMs thought he was much better than that, they'd have put their money where their mouth was, so to speak.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1114841


Last edited by seventieslord: 03-01-2012 at 10:37 AM.
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03-01-2012, 06:52 AM
  #473
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Never saw him play
Seventieslord did a great job above in explaining the meaning behind Gartner's numbers.

The only thing I have to add is that most (all?) of the contributors here saw Gartner play, and I think the opinion is universal that he was a good player with a very deceptive career stat line. Watching him, you would never have thought "700 goal scorer".

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03-01-2012, 07:06 AM
  #474
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2) points are indisputably worth more than points.
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1114841
Which speed needs speed more?

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03-01-2012, 07:31 AM
  #475
BM67
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There have been 209 30+ goal scorers in the 6 full seasons since the lockout. There were 351 in the first 6 years of Gartner's NHL career. That works out to 2.79 30+ goal scorers per team per season for Gartner's first 6 seasons and 1.16 30+ goal scorers per team per season for the 6 post-lockout seasons.

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