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Round 2 Voting Results (2009 update)

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Old
08-04-2009, 08:10 PM
  #1
FissionFire
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Round 2 Voting Results (2009 update)

Here are the results of Vote 1. Feel free to discuss them in this thread.

There were 29 of a possible 35 voters in this round.

PlayerTotal1st2nd3rd4th5th6th7th8th9th10th11th12th13th14th15th
Wayne Gretzky4101484300000000000
Bobby Orr4019810200000000000
Gordie Howe39851111100000000000
Mario Lemieux3571142300000000000
Bobby Hull2800000136440100100
Doug Harvey267000079443110000
Jean Beliveau241000015696200000
Eddie Shore2360000141063221000
Maurice Richard217000044327143100
Ray Bourque153000001013778110
Dominik Hasek143000030023334452
Howie Morenz108000000202235546
Jacques Plante108000000010546535
Patrick Roy850000000012428210
Stan Mikita760000000013104146


Last edited by FissionFire: 08-19-2009 at 09:09 PM.
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Old
08-05-2009, 10:21 AM
  #2
ck26
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Suprised mine wasn't the only vote for Hasek at 5. Very interesting that he got both multiple 5th place votes and multiple 15th place votes. Easily the widest spread in the first round.

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Old
08-05-2009, 12:37 PM
  #3
TheDevilMadeMe
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Bobby Hull in 13th is crazy! I have a guess as to who it was.

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08-05-2009, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Bobby Hull in 13th is crazy! I have a guess as to who it was.
I'm stumped

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08-05-2009, 12:45 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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I'm also curious as to the justification of the poster who voted Ray Bourque 6th. Since everyone rated the Big 4 as their Top 4, that means someone has to have Bourque ahead of Shore or Harvey or both.

That vote, along with the 13th place for Hull look to be the big outliers. There are the 3 5th place votes for Hasek, but I understand that reasoning even if I don't agree with it.

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08-05-2009, 05:26 PM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Bobby Hull in 13th is crazy! I have a guess as to who it was.
I ranked Ray Bourque 6th, but no I'm not the one who ranked Bobby Hull 13th. I could care less if you think Harvey and Shore are better. Ray was elite for 7 more years and he was better defensively than Eddie Shore. Shore was just above average defensively, his offence was great but he didn't exactly set the league on fire like orr. Shore and Harvey are both overrated.

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08-05-2009, 05:36 PM
  #7
Dennis Bonvie
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To me, 8 people ranking The Rocket out of the top 10 is odd.

As is Roy getting 10 last place votes. I thought from the discussions he would do better.

Looks like the top is more of a top 3 and Mario than a top 4. (Gretz was 4th for me)

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08-05-2009, 05:37 PM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
To me, 8 people ranking The Rocket out of the top 10 is odd.
That's indeed REALLY, REALLY odd.

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08-05-2009, 05:41 PM
  #9
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
To me, 8 people ranking The Rocket out of the top 10 is odd.

As is Roy getting 10 last place votes. I thought from the discussions he would do better.

Looks like the top is more of a top 3 and Mario than a top 4. (Gretz was 4th for me)
Yeah, I think people look at Rocket as being overrated slightly by history, but some of the voters might have taken it a little too far. In the end, he was the 6th ranked forward, which seems right.

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08-05-2009, 06:43 PM
  #10
Dark Shadows
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
I ranked Ray Bourque 6th, but no I'm not the one who ranked Bobby Hull 13th. I could care less if you think Harvey and Shore are better. Ray was elite for 7 more years and he was better defensively than Eddie Shore. Shore was just above average defensively, his offence was great but he didn't exactly set the league on fire like orr. Shore and Harvey are both overrated.
We know it was not you who ranked Hull 13th. The person who did was the guy arguing against the whole section about Hull the entire last thread.

For the record, Shore was more than just "Above average" defensively. He was not the best defensive defenseman in his era, but he was still considered very very hard to get by. Lionel Hitchman and Sylvio Mantha were the two considered the very best defensively at the time, while Shore was 3rd. All I have to base this on are 3 newspaper article interviews asking specific forwards like Frank Boucher who he thought was toughest to get by and Legends of Hockey, but they are all in accord.

In any case, I usually defend Bourque, but not this time. I already made a large post detailing why Harvey was better, and I consider Shore to be neck and Neck with Harvey. Really no need to rehash it again.

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08-05-2009, 06:45 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Yeah, I think people look at Rocket as being overrated slightly by history, but some of the voters might have taken it a little too far. In the end, he was the 6th ranked forward, which seems right.
Don't really think it's that tough. A) Hull is a better single-minded offensive player, and Morenz may be as well. B) There were six defensemen/goalers to choose from. C) Two-way centers like Beliveau (yes) and Mikita (a stretch) rate ahead of a single-minded offensive player just categorically ... and voila, you're at 15. I did some but not all of these things and had Rocket outside the top ten.

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08-05-2009, 06:46 PM
  #12
pappyline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
I ranked Ray Bourque 6th, but no I'm not the one who ranked Bobby Hull 13th. I could care less if you think Harvey and Shore are better. Ray was elite for 7 more years and he was better defensively than Eddie Shore. Shore was just above average defensively, his offence was great but he didn't exactly set the league on fire like orr. Shore and Harvey are both overrated.
I am curious as to who ranked Hull 13th. In the last go around his lowest ranking was 11th by cottonking. Anyway we will find out at the end of it all when FF makes all the voting records public.

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08-05-2009, 06:49 PM
  #13
Dark Shadows
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cottonking View Post
Don't really think it's that tough. A) Hull is a better single-minded offensive player, and Morenz may be as well. B) There were six defensemen/goalers to choose from. C) Two-way centers like Beliveau (yes) and Mikita (a stretch) rate ahead of a single-minded offensive player just categorically ... and voila, you're almost at the end of the list. I did some but not all of these things and had Rocket outside the top ten.
Morenz was considered one of the best two way forwards of his time, and one of the best offensively to boot.

Rocket's somewhat overlooked strength is his clutch play in the playoffs.

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08-05-2009, 06:52 PM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jekyll View Post
We know it was not you who ranked Hull 13th. The person who did was the guy arguing against the whole section about Hull the entire last thread.

For the record, Shore was more than just "Above average" defensively. He was not the best defensive defenseman in his era, but he was still considered very very hard to get by. Lionel Hitchman and Sylvio Mantha were the two considered the very best defensively at the time, while Shore was 3rd. All I have to base this on are 3 newspaper article interviews asking specific forwards like Frank Boucher who he thought was toughest to get by and Legends of Hockey, but they are all in accord.

In any case, I usually defend Bourque, but not this time. I already made a large post detailing why Harvey was better, and I consider Shore to be neck and Neck with Harvey. Really no need to rehash it again.
Cy Wentworth was considered better of them all, even though his career started a little later.
And Frank Boucher could obviously not talk a lot 'bout Ching.

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08-05-2009, 06:52 PM
  #15
Dark Shadows
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
I am curious as to who ranked Hull 13th. In the last go around his lowest ranking was 11th by cottonking. Anyway we will find out at the end of it all when FF makes all the voting records public.
Ill give you a hint Pappy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
At the behest of posters I have submitted a list in order that I may fully participate. I am working on a Top 25 by eras list that is a work in progress and a parallel effort. My Top 100 is culled from the list and should not be viewed as competing or contradictory.

TOP 100
1. Bobby Orr
2. Gordie Howe
3. Wayne Gretzky
4. Mario Lemieux
5. Maurice Richard
6. Jean Beliveau
7. Doug Harvey
8. Eddie Shore
9. Howie Morenz
10. Jacques Plante
11. Patrick Roy
12. Martin Brodeur
13. Ray Bourque
14. Bobby Hull
15. Bryan Trottier

Bobby Orr
First and only player to combine all the skills into one position. Showed that offense could be generated from the defensive end, redefining the position.

Optimum score in each category - offense, defense, physical, finesse, passing, shooting, skating,on ice vision, anticipation, ultimate teammate with an uncanny ability to learn and data bank. Victim of injuries - tried to do things on skates that the knees were simply not designed to do. Suffered from some of the weakest coaches imaginable.

Gordie Howe
Longevity and regularity.Bit short on skating and finesse. Did not change the way the game was played.Recovered from a near fatal head injury to have an amazing career.

Wayne Gretzky
Changed the way the game was played in the offensive zone. Defense and physical facets a bit short of Orr and Howe.

Mario Lemieux
Would have loved to see Mario Lemieux enjoy Gordie Howe's health and physical prowess. Not how it played out. Defense and physical facets a bit short, ranked fourth because Wayne Gretzky set certain benchmarks.

Maurice Richard
Set the standard for speed and exemplified how speed impacts hockey. Lack of self discipline cost him and his team.

Jean Beliveau
Ultimate teammate and leader. Elite in every facet of his position combined with longevity interrupted by injuries.

Doug Harvey
First all purpose defenseman who had a knack for making teammates better. Controlled the game bit short of Bobby Orr.

Eddie Shore
Generational player whose lack of discipline cost his team.Raised the bar for offensive defensemen.

Howie Morenz
Generational player who was able to make the transition to the forward passing game. Leader.

Jacques Plante
Separated himself from other great goalies by being an innovator, making the goalie mask a permanent part of hockey thereby changing the way the position is played. Winner whose direct influence was seen on teammates - Wakely, Stephenson, Parent, coached Richard Brodeur, scouted Patrick Roy and taught Francois Allaire.

Patrick Roy
A winner from day one in the NHL. Loved pressure, great in overtime. Not a compiler.

Martin Brodeur
The Gordie Howe of goaltenders. Longevity,reliablity, consistent,not flashy.

Ray Bourque
The Gordie Howe of defensemen. Longevity, reliability, consistent. Sad that the Bruins did not have better coaching during his era.

Bobby Hull
Behind the flash, charisma and the numbers you have a compiler.
Held back teammates - Phil Esposito and Bill Hay did not make them better.

Bryan Trottier
Contributed to making his team and teammates better from day one. Excellent in all facets of the game won multiple Stanley Cups with two teams including the only two Cups that Mario Lemieux, Jaromir Jagr and Ron Francis ever won.

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Old
08-05-2009, 06:55 PM
  #16
pappyline
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Originally Posted by Jekyll View Post
Ill give you a hint Pappy
Didn't think that he was eligible to vote this round but if he was then that would explain it.

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Old
08-05-2009, 06:58 PM
  #17
Dark Shadows
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Cy Wentworth was considered better of them all, even though his career started a little later.
And Frank Boucher could obviously not talk a lot 'bout Ching.
The accounts I read placed him behind them all, but I would be more than happy to see new sources on that era. Details are limited at best on the early days of Hockey.

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08-05-2009, 07:04 PM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jekyll View Post
For the record, Shore was more than just "Above average" defensively. He was not the best defensive defenseman in his era, but he was still considered very very hard to get by. Lionel Hitchman and Sylvio Mantha were the two considered the very best defensively at the time, while Shore was 3rd. All I have to base this on are 3 newspaper article interviews asking specific forwards like Frank Boucher who he thought was toughest to get by and Legends of Hockey, but they are all in accord.

In any case, I usually defend Bourque, but not this time. I already made a large post detailing why Harvey was better, and I consider Shore to be neck and Neck with Harvey. Really no need to rehash it again.
I am Ray's biggest supporter; (screaming about him cracking the top ten since I got here, lol), but I have to agree. I also have Shore and Harvey neck-and-neck, (albeit always with Shore ahead).

I can offer a little bit of anecdotal evidence about his, (Shore's), defensive play. A number of the old timers I knew at the Garden when I was a kid, (who loved Shore), spoke of him sacrificing pure defense to take offensive chances often, ("the Bobby Orr of his day young fella!"), and occasionally getting burned, which is fine in my opinion, (to a degree). But they would also go on to say that those who burned him would, more often than not, get hacked or slew footed the next time Shore had the chance, penalties be damned. Which does not sit fine with me. Shore's temper was undoubtedly his Achilles heel.

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Old
08-05-2009, 08:18 PM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jekyll View Post
The accounts I read placed him behind them all, but I would be more than happy to see new sources on that era. Details are limited at best on the early days of Hockey.
Humm... In regards to Wentworth, I think it was Ultimate Hockey which considered him the best defensive d-men.

For Ching, it was kindof a pure "guess".

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08-05-2009, 09:33 PM
  #20
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Originally Posted by cottonking View Post
Don't really think it's that tough. A) Hull is a better single-minded offensive player, and Morenz may be as well. B) There were six defensemen/goalers to choose from. C) Two-way centers like Beliveau (yes) and Mikita (a stretch) rate ahead of a single-minded offensive player just categorically ... and voila, you're at 15. I did some but not all of these things and had Rocket outside the top ten.
Hull is so much better he gets ranked 5th and Rocket can be out of top 10? I don't think so.

So Beliveau and Mikita would rate categorically ahead of Gretzky and Mario?

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08-06-2009, 10:14 AM
  #21
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
So Beliveau and Mikita would rate categorically ahead of Gretzky and Mario?
Of course not, just like Jere Lehtinen and Mike Peca aren't better than Wayne Gretzky, but you knew that. Rocket/Hull and Beliveau/Mikita (Mikita's a stretch and probably doesn't quite belong there) are all in the same basic stratosphere, so comparisons between them can be justifiably settled by saying, "he's a one-dimensional player and I don't much care for that." You can use that argument to justify Howe over Gretzky, but you'd be stretching it to apply it to Beliveau over Gretzky. It's a pretty safe bet you'll see this play out during vote 3, when Mike Bossy, Jaromir Jagr, Bryan Trottier and Steve Yzerman are all in the competition.

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08-19-2009, 09:53 PM
  #22
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Here are the results of Vote 2. Feel free to discuss them in this thread.

There were 27 of a possible 35 voters in this round.

PlayerTotal1st2nd3rd4th5th6th7th8th9th10th11th12th13th14th15th
Howie Morenz355686321001000000
Dominik Hasek3441142510120000001
Jacques Plante321753221221020000
Patrick Roy301256260021010110
Stan Mikita288027732100211010
Red Kelly225000324732121200
Nicklas Lidstrom216002224224401021
Denis Potvin204000026433331101
Guy Lafleur200011124034422102
Phil Esposito189100121344143102
Jaromir Jagr147010102211425062
Bobby Clarke145000010423242522
Terry Sawchuk119010011010415625
Glenn Hall98000001021222746
Ted Lindsay88000010002034395

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Old
08-20-2009, 04:10 AM
  #23
TheDevilMadeMe
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I'm a little surprised to see both Hasek and Plante received more first place votes than Morenz. I guess a lot more people than I expected picked their favored goalie first and gave Morenz their 2nd or 3rd place vote.

Interesting to see that 23/27 give Lidstrom credit between 3-10, but 3 people still put him in the bottom two spots. Only one vote was in between.

On first glance, the biggest outliers appear to be the last place vote for Hasek and the first place vote for Esposito.

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08-20-2009, 07:35 AM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
On first glance, the biggest outliers appear to be the last place vote for Hasek and the first place vote for Esposito.
It's interesting to note that if that last place vote for Hasek was instead a 1st-4th, as 22 of his other 26 votes were, he would have claimed the top spot over Morenz.

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08-20-2009, 12:09 PM
  #25
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It's interesting to note that if that last place vote for Hasek was instead a 1st-4th, as 22 of his other 26 votes were, he would have claimed the top spot over Morenz.
Nice.

You might want to consider throwing out the highest and lowest single votes out for each player -- might help prevent possible "agendas" from making an impact.

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