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Devils Top 20 prospects, Fall 2009

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Old
08-06-2009, 10:47 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Clarkson Falls Down View Post
Question, Jared, regarding the prospect ranking system...

How come one guy just doesn't do all the rankings for all the teams? Like others have said, I think you have very realistic ratings projections, while other teams seem to be a little out there.
Way too much work for no pay.

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08-06-2009, 11:20 PM
  #52
Jared Ramsden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarkson Falls Down View Post
Question, Jared, regarding the prospect ranking system...

How come one guy just doesn't do all the rankings for all the teams? Like others have said, I think you have very realistic ratings projections, while other teams seem to be a little out there.
As CD said, it would require a huge amount of work. If it was like that, I'd strongly consider volunteering for such a daunting task.

However, as it is, what all the staff writers do before they write the article, is submit a proposed list for all other staff members to view. That way, some writers who might have over ranked or graded prospects or even vice-versa, get some feedback from some people who may have seen or have a better knowledge of particular prospects. Like for example, being in Calgary, I have a pretty good feel on the Flames prospects, and most of the Calgary Hitmen players. It does help curb the bias and over-ranking, but it's not a perfect system.

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Old
08-07-2009, 12:46 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Saugus View Post
I have a question, though: Is he going to be attending training camp too, or will things have started in Sweden by then?
The SEL season kicks off on September 21st. When does training camp start? Mid-September or something like that?

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08-07-2009, 02:59 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by The Cuban View Post
The SEL season kicks off on September 21st. When does training camp start? Mid-September or something like that?
I think it opens on the September 8th for the youngsters and the veterans start a few days later on the 12th of September. As far as I recollect, European teams have been pretty flexible, if someone on their group is attending to a training camp. Besides, the players will only miss a couple of games while getting a wealth of useful experience, so there is no need for jealousy over the players.

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08-07-2009, 04:51 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by devilsfanow View Post
I am not down on tedenby at all I like him as a prospect and think the Devils made a wise pick he has great speed and skill level but it seems he still has alot of work to become a complete player the fact is he scored 3 goals in the SEL regular season the last 2 years do you honestly think he would be more productive in the NHL ??? My question to Jared is What is his reasoning for ranking Tedenby #1. when guys like Bergfors Halischuk have produced in the system and clearly may be in NJ this year
Did you completely ignore what I said?

Tedenby was playing on the 4th line in 2007-2008 as an 18 year old in a professional MENS league. Last season he played on the 4th line, some time on the 3rd line and ZERO powerplay time, in a professional MENS league.

Again, go and take a look at stats that current Swedish NHL players put up in the SEL at the same age.

Also, your still completely ignoring what Tedenby did in the SEL playoffs. 6 goals with little powerplay time and 3rd line minutes. I cannot stress this enough.

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08-07-2009, 08:53 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by brit View Post
Did you completely ignore what I said?

Tedenby was playing on the 4th line in 2007-2008 as an 18 year old in a professional MENS league. Last season he played on the 4th line, some time on the 3rd line and ZERO powerplay time, in a professional MENS league.

Again, go and take a look at stats that current Swedish NHL players put up in the SEL at the same age.

Also, your still completely ignoring what Tedenby did in the SEL playoffs. 6 goals with little powerplay time and 3rd line minutes. I cannot stress this enough.
Brit your post has little to do with my original, which Classic and Jared answered with their reference to potential and not NHL readiness.

In response to your post: The SEL is an excellent league that has produced some great players but it is not the NHL or even the AHL. I recognize 2 players from Tedenby's HV71 team that I have seen play in the US Johan Davidson and Kris Beech

Davidson was a player in the Ducks system and played in Cincy he was a below average player at best in the AHL - he is the leading scorer this year for HV71

Beecher I watched alot as he played for the Crunch and was a grinder in Syracuse he was a average player in the AHL - he is one of the leading goal scorers for HV71

My point being is that Mattias will face better talent even at the AHL level when he comes to the US.


I agree that 3rd and 4th line play has contributed to his low point total but remember that means he is playing against 3rd and 4th line talent and not the opposing teams top lines

He did have a great playoff run and hopefully that leads to better numbers this year,but for a guy who is being compared to Parise and St.Louis the numbers just aren't impressive.

As I said I really like Tedenby and the intent of my initial post was only to ask Jared what criteria he used to arrive at Tedenby's #1 ranking over guys who appear to be more NHL ready.


Last edited by MrHockey80: 08-07-2009 at 09:11 AM. Reason: Sorry typing to fast
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Old
08-07-2009, 08:59 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devilsfanow View Post
In response to your post: The SEL is an excellent league that has produced some great players but it is not the NHL or even the AHL. I recognize 2 players from Tedenby's HV71 team that I have seen play in the US Johan Davidson and Kris Beech
That's where I stopped reading. The SEL >>>>>>>>>> the AHL and CHL. It's not even close.

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08-07-2009, 09:16 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devilsfanow View Post
Brit your post has little to do with my original, which Classic and Jared answered with their reference to potential and not NHL readiness.

In response to your post: The SEL is an excellent league that has produced some great players but it is not the NHL or even the AHL. I recognize 2 players from Tedenby's HV71 team that I have seen play in the US Johan Davidson and Kris Beech

Davidson was a player in the Ducks system and played in Cincy he was an average player at best in the AHL - he is the leading scorer this year for HV71

Beecher I watched alot as he played for the Crunch and was a grinder in Syracuse he was a below average player in the AHL - he is one of the leading goal scorers for HV71

My point being is that Mattias will face better talent even at the AHL level when he comes to the US.


I agree that 3rd and 4th line play has contributed to his low point total but remember that means he is playing against 3rd and 4th line talent and not the opposing teams top lines

He did have a great playoff run and hopefully that leads to better numbers this year,but for a guy who is being compared to Parise and St.Louis the numbers just aren't impressive.

As I said I really like Tedenby and the intent of my initial post was only to ask Jared what criteria he used to arrive at Tedeby's #1 ranking over guys who appear to be more NHL ready.
You do realize that the SEL is a MUCH better league than AHL right? I have no idea where you got the impression that the AHL was a superior league. The SEL is a league consisting of men and a lot of players that could easily play in the NHL but they choose not to, and also a lot of players who have returned to Sweden back from the NHL.

Kenny Jönsson is a guy that would be among the top d-men in the NHL, but the NHL doesn't interest him.

You bring up Davidsson and Beech, two players that are at the end of their careers. They're veteran players and that's why they get more icetime than the youngsters. Davidsson would probably be one of the best in the AHL. Even if a player isn't developing in the NHL it doesn't mean he can't continue developing. Davidsson is a MUCH better player today than he was back then.

Guys that are tearing the AHL up didn't really impress in the SEL either, guys like John Pohl, Jason Krog etc... so your point is pretty pointless.

Bergfors was hardly used in the SEL and when he came over to the AHL he became probably the best player on the team. That should tell you something about the level in the SEL (even if I personally feel that youngsters should get more chances in the SEL).

Tedenby is slowly becoming one of the best players on HV71, but since he's still young he won't get top line minutes unless he reeeally excels during the year. If he were to play in the AHL this season he'd be the best forward on Lowell and one of AHL's best players.

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08-07-2009, 10:26 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devilsfanow View Post
Brit your post has little to do with my original, which Classic and Jared answered with their reference to potential and not NHL readiness.

In response to your post: The SEL is an excellent league that has produced some great players but it is not the NHL or even the AHL. I recognize 2 players from Tedenby's HV71 team that I have seen play in the US Johan Davidson and Kris Beech

Davidson was a player in the Ducks system and played in Cincy he was a below average player at best in the AHL - he is the leading scorer this year for HV71

Beecher I watched alot as he played for the Crunch and was a grinder in Syracuse he was a average player in the AHL - he is one of the leading goal scorers for HV71

My point being is that Mattias will face better talent even at the AHL level when he comes to the US.


I agree that 3rd and 4th line play has contributed to his low point total but remember that means he is playing against 3rd and 4th line talent and not the opposing teams top lines

He did have a great playoff run and hopefully that leads to better numbers this year,but for a guy who is being compared to Parise and St.Louis the numbers just aren't impressive.

As I said I really like Tedenby and the intent of my initial post was only to ask Jared what criteria he used to arrive at Tedenby's #1 ranking over guys who appear to be more NHL ready.


Wow. You know nothing of the AHL or the SEL.

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08-07-2009, 12:40 PM
  #60
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[QUOTE=Devilswede;20692821]Y

You bring up Davidsson and Beech, two players that are at the end of their careers. They're veteran players and that's why they get more icetime than the youngsters. Davidsson would probably be one of the best in the AHL. Even if a player isn't developing in the NHL it doesn't mean he can't continue developing. Davidsson is a MUCH better player today than he was back then.

Guys that are tearing the AHL up didn't really impress in the SEL either, guys like John Pohl, Jason Krog etc... so your point is pretty pointless.

Devilswede yea your right Pohl was awful avg. a point a game in SEL regular season and leading his team in playoff points and Krog nearly a goal a game and 8 points in 17 playoffs - if you want to make a point don't let the facts get in your way

Beech may debate that he is past his prime at 29.

Cuban I have been a season ticketholder with an AHL franchise since the 90's first with the Devils and now The Crunch (Blue Jackets) I have seen more prospects come through the A then you will see in your life (including Marty B.) I think that qualifies me to speak about the AHL .


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08-08-2009, 11:16 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devilsfanow View Post
Cuban I have been a season ticketholder with an AHL franchise since the 90's first with the Devils and now The Crunch (Blue Jackets) I have seen more prospects come through the A then you will see in your life (including Marty B.) I think that qualifies me to speak about the AHL .
Well, you know nothing of the quality of the AHL compared to that of the SEL.

Leagues that are better than the AHL:
NHL
KHL
SEL
SM-Liiga
Czech Extraliga

Prospects in these leagues face way tougher opposition than in the AHL. The only advantage the AHL has over the european leagues, concerning development of prospects, is that it has the same type of rink as the NHL. But I don't think it takes that long for european prospects to get used to the rink size, so that they actually need to play in the AHL.

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08-08-2009, 11:44 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devilsfanow View Post
Cuban I have been a season ticketholder with an AHL franchise since the 90's first with the Devils and now The Crunch (Blue Jackets) I have seen more prospects come through the A then you will see in your life (including Marty B.) I think that qualifies me to speak about the AHL .
It doesn't qualify you to speak about the SEL though. You're basically saying that a North American minor league is better than Sweden's top league. Do you know how ridiculous that sounds?

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08-08-2009, 01:53 PM
  #63
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In comparing Tedenby and his play and Bergfors and his play in the AHL the comparison medium should be when bergfors played in the SEL and got only one goal and Tedenby has gotten 9 goals in two seasons including playoffs so whose really better. I would take Tedenby over Bergfors 100 out of 100 times

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08-08-2009, 03:39 PM
  #64
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Das uber it may sound ridiculous to you but heres a little education for what appears to be some young Devils fans

The better teams which includes the Devils will have all their prospects prove their worth in the AHL the devils have done it for 20 years

Elias put up 2 70 point seasons before moving up

Madden almost 100 point season and he wasn't even considered an offensive player

Gionta Parise Clarkson,,,, all cut their teeth in the AHL before moving to New Jersey

The better teams seem to look for around 25 goals from offensive guys but obviously other skills factor in being a fighter, defensive specialist great faceoff guy.....

It may also be an indication why Bergfors hasn't moved up 22 goals this year doesn't even put him in the top 50 goal scorers and 29 assists doesn't reach the top 80.. and many have him penciled in as a 2nd line player

Like it or not unless Tedenby explodes with high numbers he will also be playing in the AHL next year - it the way Lou likes players to develop.........

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Old
08-08-2009, 03:48 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devilsfanow View Post
Das uber it may sound ridiculous to you but heres a little education for what appears to be some young Devils fans

The better teams which includes the Devils will have all their prospects prove their worth in the AHL the devils have done it for 20 years

Elias put up 2 70 point seasons before moving up

Madden almost 100 point season and he wasn't even considered an offensive player

Gionta Parise Clarkson,,,, all cut their teeth in the AHL before moving to New Jersey

The better teams seem to look for around 25 goals from offensive guys but obviously other skills factor in being a fighter, defensive specialist great faceoff guy.....

It may also be an indication why Bergfors hasn't moved up 22 goals this year doesn't even put him in the top 50 goal scorers and 29 assists doesn't reach the top 80.. and many have him penciled in as a 2nd line player

Like it or not unless Tedenby explodes with high numbers he will also be playing in the AHL next year - it the way Lou likes players to develop.........
Doesn't mean it happens all the time. Gomez, Zajac, and Martin are all examples of players who didn't not play significant time in the AHL.

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08-08-2009, 05:02 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devilsfanow View Post
Das uber it may sound ridiculous to you but heres a little education for what appears to be some young Devils fans

The better teams which includes the Devils will have all their prospects prove their worth in the AHL the devils have done it for 20 years

Elias put up 2 70 point seasons before moving up

Madden almost 100 point season and he wasn't even considered an offensive player

Gionta Parise Clarkson,,,, all cut their teeth in the AHL before moving to New Jersey

The better teams seem to look for around 25 goals from offensive guys but obviously other skills factor in being a fighter, defensive specialist great faceoff guy.....

It may also be an indication why Bergfors hasn't moved up 22 goals this year doesn't even put him in the top 50 goal scorers and 29 assists doesn't reach the top 80.. and many have him penciled in as a 2nd line player

Like it or not unless Tedenby explodes with high numbers he will also be playing in the AHL next year - it the way Lou likes players to develop.........


There are some very prominent exceptions, as CFD pointed out.

I think Josefsson will go from SEL to NHL and I think more Swedish prospects will follow that path.

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08-08-2009, 05:08 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by The Cuban View Post
I think Josefsson will go from SEL to NHL and I think more Swedish prospects will follow that path.
To be honest, as much as we like when European prospects come over to NA, I think Bergfors would have been better off in the SEL. Maybe he would've been more comfortable there and wouldn't of been so thrown into NA style play as an 18 year old. I guess we will see this year when he has the most serious shot at the NHL he will ever get.

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08-09-2009, 04:13 AM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devilsfanow View Post
Das uber it may sound ridiculous to you but heres a little education for what appears to be some young Devils fans

The better teams which includes the Devils will have all their prospects prove their worth in the AHL the devils have done it for 20 years

Elias put up 2 70 point seasons before moving up

Madden almost 100 point season and he wasn't even considered an offensive player

Gionta Parise Clarkson,,,, all cut their teeth in the AHL before moving to New Jersey

The better teams seem to look for around 25 goals from offensive guys but obviously other skills factor in being a fighter, defensive specialist great faceoff guy.....

It may also be an indication why Bergfors hasn't moved up 22 goals this year doesn't even put him in the top 50 goal scorers and 29 assists doesn't reach the top 80.. and many have him penciled in as a 2nd line player

Like it or not unless Tedenby explodes with high numbers he will also be playing in the AHL next year - it the way Lou likes players to develop.........
Education? That's just looking at stats and bringing them up. Your point is still vague. Here's some education for you then:

I agree with you that Lou like his prospects to spend at least some time time in the AHL, but that has more to do with them getting acclimatized to the organization and the Devils' way of doing things rather than the on ice performance.

Elias scoring in the AHL wasn't a surprise because it was an inferior league to the ones in Europe. Elias didn't have much of a chance at cracking any lineups in Europe, that's why he came over to NA. He knew he could be a prominent player in the AHL.

Madden, primarily a defensive player, scoring almost 100 points should tell you something about the AHL too. He'd never have those numbers playing the SEL. Not even a chance.

Gionta, Clarkson etc also played in the AHL and developed nicely, but they also came from inferior leagues i.e College and Juniors. Of course they were gonna develop better in the AHL, because it's a better league than those two.

Look, the AHL is a good way to develop our prospects that come from the inferior leagues like college and juniors, and it won't harm any European prospects to get used to the NA way by playing some time in the AHL. But the level of play in the AHL doesn't come even close to the level of play in the SEL.

The SEL is a far superior league and the youngsters that play there will get better development than if they were getting at the AHL level.

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08-09-2009, 12:09 PM
  #69
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Quote:
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To be honest, as much as we like when European prospects come over to NA, I think Bergfors would have been better off in the SEL. Maybe he would've been more comfortable there and wouldn't of been so thrown into NA style play as an 18 year old. I guess we will see this year when he has the most serious shot at the NHL he will ever get.
Bergfors had a remarkable camp at 18. Of all the times I've seen him play, the best was right out of the gate. The "it" factor was there, with a high end skill set, so perhaps the thought within the organization was that he was close, despite his youth.

My feeling about Bergfors is that the AHL didn't seem to help him much at all. I don't think he was physically or mentally prepared for the grind, and the bloom left the rose.

He regressed immediately and has, at best, stagnated since. He has a huge opportunity this year with the departure of Gionta, perhaps his best shot in his entire Devils career, but I do not have very much confidence he will rise to the occasion.

To me Bergfors is too soft and moody to have much success as a New Jersey Devil.

I would LOOOOOOVE to see it turn out different, as we need some new blood in the top 9 forwards.

But I have grave doubts.

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08-09-2009, 12:20 PM
  #70
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This thread has gotten so far off topic but here goes my last word

If you like to think the SEL is so far superior to American hockey thats your opinion and I just happen to disagree thats my opinion But I will leave you with this :

If the SEL is so much better for prospects to develop the only common proving ground for young prospects would be U20 championships

Sweden should dominate with the talent they bring since they always have a number of SEL players over teams with College and CHL players from Canada and the US ???????!!!!!

Newsflash They don't !!!!!!!

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08-09-2009, 12:29 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devilsfanow View Post
This thread has gotten so far off topic but here goes my last word

If you like to think the SEL is so far superior to American hockey thats your opinion and I just happen to disagree thats my opinion But I will leave you with this :

If the SEL is so much better for prospects to develop the only common proving ground for young prospects would be U20 championships

Sweden should dominate with the talent they bring since they always have a number of SEL players over teams with College and CHL players from Canada and the US ???????!!!!!

Newsflash They don't !!!!!!!
No one said their young player quality is substantially higher than it is in North America. Both the AHL and the SEL feature a host of grown men. The point is that the SEL as a league features substantially better hockey than the AHL or the CHL as leagues, because with the exception of the real Swedish stars or those with great desire to compete, the second tier of European forwards stay in Europe. That means the players who are good enough to make the SEL are playing not in a developmental league, like the AHL or CHL, but in a league where the teams are competing for championships. That's why the young players - who may be substantially more talented than their older counterparts - are relegated to third and fourth line roles, because they haven't grown up yet. But while in the SEL they're exposed to better quality competition.

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08-09-2009, 02:03 PM
  #72
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Just look at what Vasyunov did. 15 goals for Lowell and what, one in like two years for Lokomotiv? Zharkov, same thing - only a handful of points in Russia and a good amount in the AHL.

SEL and KHL > AHL.

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08-09-2009, 02:06 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Darius Dangleaitis View Post
Just look at what Vasyunov did. 15 goals for Lowell and what, one in like two years for Lokomotiv? Zharkov, same thing - only a handful of points in Russia and a good amount in the AHL.

SEL and KHL > AHL.


I was going to fix it and add more ">", but, ya know...

The only question left is whether or not the A is > or < than the IEL (Iraq elite league).

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08-09-2009, 02:16 PM
  #74
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Another thing that explains the prospects coming over and playing in the AHL over their respective national leagues is the fact that they need to acclimate to the smaller rink and changes in play that come with it. They spend the better part of their development in the superior national leagues developing their game, and then Lou gets them over to the AHL to get them ready for the NA game.

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08-09-2009, 02:28 PM
  #75
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Ya know guys, sometimes they put youngsters in the AHL for non-hockey reasons.

There is less pressure to perform there, with lower competition so they can get used to things like, ya know, living in another country with no friends or family?! Eating different foods? Speaking different languages? Having different phone numbers, different ways of meeting people and little things we all take for granted.

Hockey fans tend to forget that hockey isn't everything...

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