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Granato named Pens assistant coach

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Old
08-07-2009, 01:55 PM
  #76
Jacob
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Well, define "horrible". This has been discussed ad nauseum. I understand why Avs fans wouldn't like Granato. For the same reason Penguins fans don't like Therrien, or Kehoe. Doesn't mean he's a bad coach or, in this case, can't be a valuable assistant.

And yes, experience is experience. Situations are going to arise during an 82 game schedule that Bylsma has never seen before, and he'll lean on Granato and, to a lesser extent, Yeo, when that happens. For better or worse.

I think the main difference here is how much a team's success or lack-there-of can be attributed to the dude behind the bench. Some people think it makes all the difference, some thing it makes very little. You seem like the former. I'm in the middle.

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08-07-2009, 02:13 PM
  #77
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You've seen what the fans who know him the best have said. The one positive quality any of them can think of is his player relations... that is not something we have a problem with amongst our coaching staff.

The resounding majority of reviews of him have been horrendous and they note his deficiencies are things that our team currently needs help with. Do you honestly think we struck gold with this guy when most anyone who knows of him in a closer way has struggled hard to find any redeeming quality about him?

This just reeks hard of pens fans refusing to accept someone in the organization did something wrong. This type of feeling has grown to obnoxious levels since the cup win. You can't disagree with something without someone retorting about "well we won a cup with things that way" or blah blah blah. Not saying you specifically have said that but that seems to be the underlying principle.

Shero and company are human and make mistakes... several of them. Frankly this appears to be the most blatant mistake of this offseason. There is way way more evidence on the negative side of this issue than on the positive side. For the most part the general boards can give an objective opinion about things. You can look at some of our Free Agent signings to see people saying that it was a great signing etc... Not that I take that as the whole face value but when something happens that has an overwhelmingly negative review from others that know the person better it should raise some flags to people here, instead they cite what they read in the Pittsburgh PG.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, this signing just looks like Bylsma hiring his buddy and not addressing real team needs. Shero shouldve been overseeing this and not having the coach decide, so in that case the buck stops at Shero and he should get the blame for this.

Frankly the only people speaking positively about this are pens fans, that should tell us something...

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08-07-2009, 02:17 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
I think the main difference here is how much a team's success or lack-there-of can be attributed to the dude behind the bench. Some people think it makes all the difference, some thing it makes very little. You seem like the former. I'm in the middle.
I also am in the middle, but I also think that there is more opportunity for negative effects to happen from bad coaching than good things. For instance, I attribute the penguins rebound last season to simply being rid of MT rather than having Bylsma.

I don't see any possible positives from this hiring while I do see a lot of potential negatives, that is why it is not appealing to me. I would much rather the team of went with someone that couldve offered some positives, such as a former defenseman, or perhaps someone with some substantial experience. There were plenty of guys on the market like that.

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08-07-2009, 02:39 PM
  #79
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Well, in this case then, you're choosing to hold the opinions of some internet hockey fans higher than the Penguins management?

I agree, it gets old hearing from some of the more rampant homers on here how the Penguins can do no wrong. Everything Shero touches turns to gold. Probably the only thing more annoying is the fans that automatically bash any move they don't immediately understand or agree with, like you're doing.

I think the front office knows more about who fits best as an assistant than anyone on this forum does. I usually try to put myself in their position. Instead of automatically lamenting a certain move, try to be reasonable about it. Put yourself in their shoes. I don't think there's anything homerish about that.

Do you think Shero and Bylsma got together and said "Ok, Granato totally sucks as a coach. The fans know it. We know it. Tony knows it. But, what the hey, he's a good friend, let's just hire him anyway." Because that's what it sounds like.

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08-07-2009, 02:54 PM
  #80
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For me, I'm giving Granato a bit of a pass for Colorado's past season when their two best players played 45 and 15 games and they arguably had the league's worst goaltending tandem.

And while one only has to point to Therrien to counter a coach's record as merit, Granato is still getting praised as an assistant coach by Colorado fans.

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08-07-2009, 02:57 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
Well, in this case then, you're choosing to hold the opinions of some internet hockey fans higher than the Penguins management?

I am weighing the evidence of the situation and right now there is way way way way more negative than positive on the situation. I am being objective, something too few here are being.



Quote:
I agree, it gets old hearing from some of the more rampant homers on here how the Penguins can do no wrong. Everything Shero touches turns to gold. Probably the only thing more annoying is the fans that automatically bash any move they don't immediately understand or agree with, like you're doing.

I bash a move I disagree with, and I have given praise for many moves I have liked. I voice my opinion on a message board, but I don't have the underlying principle that Shero can do no wrong as a guiding light that too many people here do have.


Quote:
I think the front office knows more about who fits best as an assistant than anyone on this forum does. I usually try to put myself in their position. Instead of automatically lamenting a certain move, try to be reasonable about it. Put yourself in their shoes. I don't think there's anything homerish about that.
In the prior paragraph you say that you dont like the whole penguins can do no harm mentality and here you go basically saying the front office can do no harm.


Quote:
Do you think Shero and Bylsma got together and said "Ok, Granato totally sucks as a coach. The fans know it. We know it. Tony knows it. But, what the hey, he's a good friend, let's just hire him anyway." Because that's what it sounds like.
I don't think Shero was much involved with this at all... that is actually the problem. I think he delegated too much authority to his Head Coach to select his co-worker. It's Shero's job to build the best team he can build, not Bylsma's. Shero shouldve been the one doing the interview process, not Bylsma and Yeo. Of course Bylsma's old teammate and probably a good friend hit it off well with the interviewer... and Bylsma recommended him for the position. Now is Shero going to piss off his coach after giving him the authority to interview and select the new assistant coach by vetoing his decision? I see that as highly unlikely which is why Shero shouldve been the one doing the hiring from the beginning. This just reeks of a country club move.

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08-07-2009, 03:00 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by WVP View Post
For me, I'm giving Granato a bit of a pass for Colorado's past season when their two best players played 45 and 15 games and they arguably had the league's worst goaltending tandem.

And while one only has to point to Therrien to counter a coach's record as merit, Granato is still getting praised as an assistant coach by Colorado fans.
I've read through their threads and saw no such praises of him as an assistant coach... From what they have said about his ability as an assistant coach is to keep him away from the white board and away from your special teams... he's good at relating with the players and thats about it.

And good point about bringing up Therrien. Say another team goes out and hires Therrien and their fans are all optimistic about the signing thinking his experience will be very good.. Who should those fans believe? Themselves who have little to no experience of how Therrien is as a coach, or us here who have had to deal with his deficiencies and know first hand how horrible he is?

Hell, everything we needed to know about Therrien was said about Montreal fans when he was brought on in Pittsburgh... They were absolutely dead right about all his issues, but I guess we should pretend other teams fans don't know anything about the coach at all...

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08-07-2009, 03:05 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Gooch View Post
So... lets not critique any free agent signing, or coach hiring for this team until the player has put in a season at least with the team?
Jesus, Gooch. If being overly defensive, jerking knees, not reading the damn post and putting words in peoples mouths were Olympic events, you'd be Jesse Owens.

What the hell, compadre? You're too smart to think that's what he meant.


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08-07-2009, 03:11 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Gooch View Post
Glad to see the homerism die down a bit on this and people actually bringing in constructive debates onto this subject. This was a totally questionable move and reaks of Bylsma and Yeo hiring someone they feel they can work with moreso than someone who can actually help contribute to the weaknesses of the coaching staff.

Whats Tony G's strength? Player relations, that isnt the problem this coaching staff has.
They could use someone with some defensive experience and/or pp coaching abilities. Shero delegated this hiring out to this coaches, I wish he had taken the reigns on this instead of letting the coaches pick. It's like letting the players hire their own coach.

Shero has done a lot of good this summer, but this ranks with one of the worst moves.
That was what I was expecting as well. Or hoping, better saying.
I only can understand this hiring if the intent is for Granato to strictly replace Tom Fitzgerald - the former assuming the role close to the players, the latter concentrating on management duties.
If that's the case, he could be an useful addition, but he'll not do much better than Yeo if hired to run special teams. And I don't know if he's the best option as consigliere, as well.

----------------------------------------------------

There's another thing that - I confess - I completely missed, and don't know why: where's Andre Savard?

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08-07-2009, 03:14 PM
  #85
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There's another thing that - I confess - I completely missed, and don't know why: where's Andre Savard?
I don't ever remember hearing what became of him when he got "reassigned". For all we know, he's now our Uzbekistani scout.

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08-07-2009, 03:28 PM
  #86
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I don't ever remember hearing what became of him when he got "reassigned". For all we know, he's now our Uzbekistani scout.
I completely forgot about the guy in the last few months, and when trying to find out, I don't find his name anywhere in the Pens site.
I ask this because right now, we have Yeo, Meloche and Granato, and one the two:
Either another coach signing is in the plans or Granato will take care of something else than player relations.

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08-07-2009, 04:18 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Gooch View Post
Glad to see the homerism die down a bit on this and people actually bringing in constructive debates onto this subject. This was a totally questionable move and reaks of Bylsma and Yeo hiring someone they feel they can work with moreso than someone who can actually help contribute to the weaknesses of the coaching staff.

Whats Tony G's strength? Player relations, that isnt the problem this coaching staff has. They could use someone with some defensive experience and/or pp coaching abilities. Shero delegated this hiring out to this coaches, I wish he had taken the reigns on this instead of letting the coaches pick. It's like letting the players hire their own coach.

Shero has done a lot of good this summer, but this ranks with one of the worst moves.
I absolutely agree.

This is a real disappointment. Shero definitely dropped the ball here by allowing Bylsma and Yeo to do this hiring. This is irresponsible. He should be hiring the coaches after consultation with the braintrust. And why is Yeo still here?

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08-07-2009, 04:19 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Katawah View Post
I absolutely agree.

This is a real disappointment. Shero definitely dropped the ball here by allowing Bylsma and Yeo to do this hiring. This is irresponsible. He should be hiring the coaches after consultation with the braintrust. And why is Yeo still here?
You're my favorite.

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08-07-2009, 04:29 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Jeff Goldblum View Post
You're my favorite.
How about addressing the substance of the discussion?

No .. I guess it's a lot easier for you to make a snide, sarcastic comment directed at me .. rather than having to come up with a genuine reply. Very noble of you.

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08-07-2009, 04:38 PM
  #90
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Gooch wrote ..

"I don't think Shero was much involved with this at all... that is actually the problem. I think he delegated too much authority to his Head Coach to select his co-worker. It's Shero's job to build the best team he can build, not Bylsma's. Shero shouldve been the one doing the interview process, not Bylsma and Yeo. Of course Bylsma's old teammate and probably a good friend hit it off well with the interviewer... and Bylsma recommended him for the position. Now is Shero going to piss off his coach after giving him the authority to interview and select the new assistant coach by vetoing his decision? I see that as highly unlikely which is why Shero shouldve been the one doing the hiring from the beginning. This just reeks of a country club move."

This.

Excellent analysis, Gooch.

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08-07-2009, 04:44 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katawah View Post
I absolutely agree.

This is a real disappointment. Shero definitely dropped the ball here by allowing Bylsma and Yeo to do this hiring. This is irresponsible. He should be hiring the coaches after consultation with the braintrust. And why is Yeo still here?
Are you serious?

Do you realize how blessed we are as a fan base? There is absolutely no way you were a fan of the Penguins during the X-Gen years or you would have committed suicide w/ all the bad decisions. You do actually realize nothing will ever be perfect in an organization too, right?? We can't have everything we want... as you tend to believe we can. Fortunately for us, the power play/PK was good enough against Detroit to keep Yeo, a Stanley Cup Champion assistant coach, on board. If he doesn't do his job.. he'll be gone half way through the season. No matter how much he frustrates this board, he was a part of a coaching staff that got the Pens their first Championship since 1992. You tend to keep your job when you attain goals that high. It's just reality.


To actually discuss the topic at hand... Jacob said it best:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
The biggest weakness in our coaching staff is experience, and Granato brings that.
Granato has a winning overall record, was around a winning club, and will bring good experience to our coaching staff. I don't see a single problem with this at all. That's actually a positive asset to have on the bench.

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08-07-2009, 04:59 PM
  #92
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Heck of a defense team you've put together, Gooch.

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08-07-2009, 05:34 PM
  #93
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I've got privilege to be Penguins fan from 1991 [that was my first chance to see NHL matches in Poland] and Avalanche fan since 1996, so I know quite much about both teams. I don't like this signing of Tony Granato. He was medicore head coach at best, got great team in 2003 and lost in the first round against Minnesota Wild, and even better in 2004. Of course Patty was gone at that time, but Abby was really good that year .924 SV%, 2.09 GAA and 32 wins. That was much above average. Kariya and Selanne, Teemu played on one leg, his knee was in terrible condition, during the lockout he has surgery that save his career, without it he would retire and he considered that. Kariya had quite promising start of the season [3G,2A in first four games] but was injured in the fifth game of the season and missed total of 31 games because on it. Later he injured his ankle and missed all but one game in playoffs [his got assist in that one]. There was a lot of injuries that year, but everybody expected this team to be better than they was. After lockout when Tony was assistant coach he was responsible for PP. First year [05/06] AVS were 9th in the league 18.8%, not bad, but we got Rob Blake then.Next year 21.1% and fourth place in the league, one above Pens. It was first year after Rob Blake was gone.

Then something happened, we dropped from 4th place to 28th with 14,6%. Terrible..., of course you can say that was because of injuries, but even with best forwards healthy we were terrible. For me the biggest mistake that Granato made in PP was when he puts Ryan Smyth behind the net! Come on, Smyth was second best player in the NHL in PP in front the net! Only better was Holmstrom from Red Wimgs and Granato put him behind goal line. That was so stupid! As a head coach in 08-09 he wasn't much better, 15,7% and 25th place in the league. I think Kings would make better from Smyth on PP.

As I say you can blame injuries for worst season in AVS history with Tony Granato behind the bench, but year before with Joel Quenneville there was also a lot of injuries and this team advanced to the second round of playoffs.

I really don't like an idea that Tony would be responsible for PP, for PK.. I don't think he done it before, so who knows maybe he would have some successes. Good thing is there are lot of talent in Pens lineup, so maybe he wouldn't screw it up. Ehh, hope I'm wrong, but it doesn't look too promising.

One good thing is that most AVS fans also like "to fire Quenneville" and he showed in Chicago that he is really good coach, so maybe Tony G. would show that he is great assistant coach in Pittsburgh.

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08-07-2009, 05:46 PM
  #94
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it's a good pickup if he NEVER touches the chalkboard.

The PP is the LAST thing you want him to run. He might be able to run the PK w/some ability, but I'm pretty sure my high school team's powerplay is better executed than his.

Lemme explain, the classic granato powerplay.

Team get's puck.

Team dumps puck from beyond blue line.

Other Team Clears Puck.

Team dumps puck from beyond blue line.

Manages to keep the puck in the zone, insert at least 20 seconds of grinding behind the net.

Team either get's the puck cleared on them, or manages to get it to the d-men.

D-men either dump the puck back around, or team has to dump it in from beyond the blue line.

Manages to keep the puck in the zone, insert at least 20 seconds of grinding behind the net.

Finally get's set-up in the zone!!! (there's probably only like 35 seconds of PP time left)

The set-up is, one guy along the low boards, one guy behind the net, one guy crashing.

Insert a ton of passing, occasional centering attempt and at least one really bad angle shot from the half-boards. If you get lucky you might even get a shot from a D-man.

Final results, no more than about 4 shot's, and never more than one from the D.

So, if you want a PP that involves the dump and chase, 3 guy's grinding behind the net, and the D-men dumping the puck every time they get it, the Granatools for you!!

If not. ...
Epic disaster..you don't want him on the PP.
that doesn't sound good, but one thing this PP has a tendency of doing is being too fancy.

the more they grind On the PP the more they'll be outworking the other team for the puck

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08-07-2009, 08:30 PM
  #95
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How about addressing the substance of the discussion?
Whenever you're finally ready to start doing that, let us know.

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08-07-2009, 08:37 PM
  #96
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I don't ever remember hearing what became of him when he got "reassigned". For all we know, he's now our Uzbekistani scout.
If I had to guess, I'd say his contract would have expired over the summer. It might explain why they didn't fire him outright; because his contract was up at the end of the season anyway.

He came on board in 2006, and I think three years is about standard length for a coaching contract. Unless he initially signed for shorter and extended.

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08-09-2009, 06:20 PM
  #97
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Are you serious?

Do you realize how blessed we are as a fan base? There is absolutely no way you were a fan of the Penguins during the X-Gen years or you would have committed suicide w/ all the bad decisions. You do actually realize nothing will ever be perfect in an organization too, right?? We can't have everything we want... as you tend to believe we can. Fortunately for us, the power play/PK was good enough against Detroit to keep Yeo, a Stanley Cup Champion assistant coach, on board. If he doesn't do his job.. he'll be gone half way through the season. No matter how much he frustrates this board, he was a part of a coaching staff that got the Pens their first Championship since 1992. You tend to keep your job when you attain goals that high. It's just reality.


To actually discuss the topic at hand... Jacob said it best:



Granato has a winning overall record, was around a winning club, and will bring good experience to our coaching staff. I don't see a single problem with this at all. That's actually a positive asset to have on the bench.
You're merely engaging in your typical blind homerism.

The challenge is to win multiple Cups .. not rest on our laurels just because we won a Cup in 2009. Part of meeting the challenge to win multiple Cups is to keep on improving .. which means making good, smart, responsible decisions regarding the hiring of assistant coaches in the off-season .. not taking the easy way out by allowing Bylsma to hire an old buddy of his who doesn't do anything to actually help improve the coaching of the team other than "relate well to the players".

Gooch and others have given plenty of evidence that shows how Granato really doesn't know what he's doing .. whether as a head coach or as an assistant coach. His value as "relating well to the players" is something that's insignificant compared to what he's apparently NOT going to provide of any value. There were plenty of better choices out there, but Shero abdicated his responsibility to the team in this instance, regardless of the fact that we won the Cup. It was still a bad move.

Now that we won the Cup in 2009, should we just rest on our laurels and not care about a move like this?

And just because we won the Cup in 2009 does NOT mean that M.Yeo has not been lousy at what he did in the 2008/2009 season .. which includes the playoffs. Again .. why not try to keep on improving? Just because we won the Cup in 2009 does not automatically mean that "Mike Yeo did a good job". The fact is .. the players overcame the lousy job that Yeo did on their way to winning the Cup.


Last edited by Katawah: 08-09-2009 at 06:40 PM.
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Old
08-09-2009, 06:42 PM
  #98
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Heck of a defense team you've put together, Gooch.
So Colorado fans (who know him best) coming here to try to inform you on what we're getting is my sarcastically pointed out "heck of a defense team"?

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08-09-2009, 08:26 PM
  #99
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So Colorado fans (who know him best) coming here to try to inform you on what we're getting is my sarcastically pointed out "heck of a defense team"?
Colorado's defense is okay, it's their goaltending you need to worry about.

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