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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, NHL revenues, relocation and expansion.

Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XII: For a Few Dollars More

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08-08-2009, 10:46 PM
  #251
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Originally Posted by Dogbert View Post
I highly doubt it. It's all about the city, not the owner.
Nope. WRT Balsillie, it's about the owner.


As distasteful as it may be to Buffalo (primarily) and Toronto, there is a price point at which the teams would accept a territory-infringing neighbor.

Nominally the relocation and indemnity fees are negotiated. Now whether the judge will think those fees equitable/fair/justifiable at the amounts that Buffalo and/or Toronto would be happy with is something else.

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08-08-2009, 10:55 PM
  #252
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Nope. WRT Balsillie, it's about the owner.


As distasteful as it may be to Buffalo (primarily) and Toronto, there is a price point at which the teams would accept a territory-infringing neighbor.

Nominally the relocation and indemnity fees are negotiated. Now whether the judge will think those fees equitable/fair/justifiable at the amounts that Buffalo and/or Toronto would be happy with is something else.
Team owners conclude Canadian billionaire would be untrustworthy
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/stor...e-bid-nhl.html

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08-08-2009, 11:06 PM
  #253
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I agree that it's all about Balsillie at this point. Hamilton has issues as a market (mostly due to territorial issues with Toronto and Buffalo), but the biggest reason for the fight is due to Balsillie and the attempt to circumvent NHL procedure, not about what the end of that circumvention would be, if that makes sense.

I think in the future, the right owner could put together a package to please Buffalo and Toronto and bring a team to Hamilton with the NHL's blessing. It's this particular guy and the way he's trying to go about it that's the problem.

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08-08-2009, 11:06 PM
  #254
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From Twitter:
Forechecker For those who think Balsillie is squeaky clean, recall he's barred from being an officer of public corporation by SEC & OSC.

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08-08-2009, 11:11 PM
  #255
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And that means......what?

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08-08-2009, 11:15 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by NHLHammerbound View Post
Jfried

If these numbers , as per the judge's request, have been provided by the NHL themselves. It would be well nigh absurd for them to subsequently argue against them in Canuck courts. So this would indeed by tantamount to a tacit acceptance of said terms by both the NHL and JB. SInce he presumably, would also have previously agreed to them.

Of course, Its conceivable that the NHL would steadfastly refuse to provide these figures as per the judge's requested. In which case, that PHX judge, after warning the NHL that they were NOT acting in good faith, might provide his own figures, based on some other precedent/ protocol

Either way, Ontario courts / CCB wouldn't look kindly on this. SInce in this case too, the NHL couldn't argue that they were rejecting Hamilton per se, but only JB based on his character.

A very weak arguemnt, which most probably couldn't pass the smell test, in Ontario courts either...
Do you really believe that the NHL is going to say to the judge in Phoenix "This is what we want to accept a move to Hamilton"?

They will fight this tooth and nail without accepting any offer, only providing evidence to increase the amount hte judge decides its worht. The auction will then happen and the NHL will have to decide if its enough or the move should be rejected by the BOG (and subsequently put the franchise at risk of being folded for failure to act within the league's bylaws).

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Originally Posted by NHLHammerbound View Post
What precedent ? over turning simple NHL bylaws, which in any case, would have little or no bearing on future challenges to them, since this situation is clearly Unique... Pursuant to Phx's bankruptcy; the US court's ruling; JB's so called character issues; S. Ontario's unrequited millions; the fact that the Leafs are a essentially a liscence to print money, plus are already being aptly compensated, plus wouldn't be seriously harmed in any case...yadda yadda

U seriously expect that the NHL would even bother to appeal? Much less, all the way to the supreme court. Mod delete.

Odds are the NHL would see the handwriting on the wall, and settle out of court, prior to any judicial decision. But even if they did try to appeal they'd have to have solid grounds for doing so. So kindly explain said grounds to me? Bearing in mind, that this case has many unique features, which certainly wouldn't preclude other NHL franchises/ pro teams from claiming/ succesfully territorial rights etc.

Failing this, their appeal would be firmly rejected,without further wasting a Canuck court's precious time...
The Canadian legal system is based on case law -- that means if you make a decision it becomes precedent for future decisions. If you say that a franchisor has no right to control who it does business with and where its franchises are located.... that applies to every franchise business in Canada. That means the entire landscape of business from professional sports to Tim Hortons' restaurants changes. No court outside of the supreme court is going to set that kind of precedent.

This is no different than if I started buying up Tim Horton's franchises and decided to locate them next door to existing franchises. The only thing different is the scale.

Furthermore, this would set a legal precedent that you cannot reject a business partner based on past actions (as long as they were not convicted of crimes).

You're using a lot of legal words, but you really have no grasp of whats going on. This isn't the wild wild west.

the CCB overturns the NHL bylaws it overturns every single agreement like this

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08-08-2009, 11:23 PM
  #257
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Actually, the NHL isn't in the business of putting the best hockey product in the world on the ice. If that were the case, they'd never lose an NHL-caliber player to other leagues because of money.

They're in the business, currently, of filling 30 arenas' dates with an hockey product, branded as the NHL. Some owners may not really even care what's on the schedule as long as it keeps the arena busy. Others may only care about winning.
Jiust because tehy are the best, doesn't mean you can have everyone.

Their product is the best hockey in the world, and they are in the business of selling it to fans, sponsors, and media. They have determined the best way to do so is by having a team in Phoenix.

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08-08-2009, 11:25 PM
  #258
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Jiust because tehy are the best, doesn't mean you can have everyone.

Their product is the best hockey in the world, and they are in the business of selling it to fans, sponsors, and media. They have determined the best way to do so is by having a team in Phoenix.
I guess that settles it then.

 
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08-08-2009, 11:26 PM
  #259
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if its just "Balsillie" and all about "character" would another bidder from Hamilton be welcome with open arms? or would they be trying to axe the second Hamilton bidder also?

lets say the second bidder was the Pope, and he wanted to put a team into Hamilton ....how would the NHL go about the Pope's bid?
He wouldn't be rejected from the bidding process, but the move to hamilton portion would be.

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08-08-2009, 11:27 PM
  #260
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No, bush league is a term used by watching this whole fiasco unfold. Fact is, this has been a mess from day one by everyone. I'm not saying Balsillie doesn't have his hands in the cookie jar in this because he certainly does. However, the way the NHL has handled this and the brazen and bold lies told by the NHL and the arrogance of Bettman and Daly is what really bugs me. Man up, tell the truth about how bad Phoenix has been, and move forward. Instead, Bettman and company continue to lie and it's making the situation worse and worse.

On top of it, reading the sworn statements from Jeremy Jacobs and Craig Leipold today were just the icing on the cake. Jacobs saying that Balsillie caused a negative effect on the sale of the Montreal Canadiens - Christ, they were sold for almost $600 million. Someone tell me how Balsillie negatively affected the value? Because he said they were up for sale? That was news that wasn't ground breaking. And then to read Leipold's assessment of Balsillie was even funnier. Leipold lent money to a guy who had a Ponzi scheme going. If he did any research what so ever on Boots Baggio, he would have seen that.

Honestly, this is a personal issue with the NHL and Balsillie. That's what's bush league about it. This isn't about someone who wants to bring a team to Canada. This is about a guy who would make a great owner, but isn't dumb enough to leave a team in a market that continues to bleed money like there's no tomorrow. So, he wants to move the team to another market where it will make money and the NHL is saying no because they want to make it work in the failing market.

As for people who say Nashville has turned a profit, the ONLY reason they turned a profit was because of revenue sharing. No revenue sharing, Nashville loses money.
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Originally Posted by jfried View Post
Do you really believe that the NHL is going to say to the judge in Phoenix "This is what we want to accept a move to Hamilton"?

They will fight this tooth and nail without accepting any offer, only providing evidence to increase the amount hte judge decides its worht. The auction will then happen and the NHL will have to decide if its enough or the move should be rejected by the BOG (and subsequently put the franchise at risk of being folded for failure to act within the league's bylaws).



The Canadian legal system is based on case law -- that means if you make a decision it becomes precedent for future decisions. If you say that a franchisor has no right to control who it does business with and where its franchises are located.... that applies to every franchise business in Canada. That means the entire landscape of business from professional sports to Tim Hortons' restaurants changes. No court outside of the supreme court is going to set that kind of precedent.

This is no different than if I started buying up Tim Horton's franchises and decided to locate them next door to existing franchises. The only thing different is the scale.

Furthermore, this would set a legal precedent that you cannot reject a business partner based on past actions (as long as they were not convicted of crimes).

You're using a lot of legal words, but you really have no grasp of whats going on. This isn't the wild wild west.

the CCB overturns the NHL bylaws it overturns every single agreement like this
not true- maybe you should apply to Osgoode Hall- then make your analogies, each case has a set of circumstances unique in it's own right- precedents are guidelines that are accepted as a path to follow should the judge decide similarities are the same- in this case major professional hockey at an elite level is different from donut stores- the analogy is if you can't shop at Tim's, you have an abundance of choice- NHL hockey in S Ont has one outlet-- 1 -- that's the argument

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08-08-2009, 11:29 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
From Twitter:
Forechecker For those who think Balsillie is squeaky clean, recall he's barred from being an officer of public corporation by SEC & OSC.

would be fun,


line up all the "squeaky clean" NHL guys calling names...


take out a comb and compare..

what would we find out?

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08-08-2009, 11:29 PM
  #262
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He wouldn't be rejected from the bidding process, but the move to hamilton portion would be.
For all his piety, a big (personal) bank account is not the Pope's.

Recall there are character and financial hoops prospective owners have to jump.

Now, were Donald Trump give Pope Benedict an unlimited checking account, then maybe.

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08-08-2009, 11:30 PM
  #263
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I guess that settles it then.
I know that his example was an extreme to one side of the fence, but if you go the other way and ask "would the NHL be better off if only the 6 most profitable teams existed?" You'd find the answer to be no. Having teams in major markets like Phoenix serves a purpose. If 20 of the teams belonged to backwater Canadian cities that may just barely support them, what would be the point? Sure, on paper they might break even or even bank some coin, but the league would be hopelessly small, lose respect, and never have a chance at growth.

Again, I go back to that point everyone seems to ignore; the Coyotes have never had a proper owner, or been properly managed, since coming to the valley. How you can legitimately say hockey is a failure at this point in time here in Phoenix is beyond comprehension. Must be a product of the ADD generation

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08-08-2009, 11:34 PM
  #264
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I know that his example was an extreme to one side of the fence, but if you go the other way and ask "would the NHL be better off if only the 6 most profitable teams existed?" You'd find the answer to be no. Having teams in major markets like Phoenix serves a purpose. If 20 of the teams belonged to backwater Canadian cities that may just barely support them, what would be the point? Sure, on paper they might break even or even bank some coin, but the league would be hopelessly small, lose respect, and never have a chance at growth.

Again, I go back to that point everyone seems to ignore; the Coyotes have never had a proper owner, or been properly managed, since coming to the valley. How you can legitimately say hockey is a failure at this point in time here in Phoenix is beyond comprehension. Must be a product of the ADD generation
The Leafs haven't exactly been managed by brilliant minds, hell they went through the Ballard years, but the profit's always been there, regardless of how bumbling or backwards the ownership might be. What will your response be when one of Bettman's prefered suitors, whoever he may be, wins ownership of the Coyotes, and once again fails to make a profit? What will the excuse be?

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08-08-2009, 11:35 PM
  #265
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Again, I go back to that point everyone seems to ignore; the Coyotes have never had a proper owner, or been properly managed, since coming to the valley. How you can legitimately say hockey is a failure at this point in time here in Phoenix is beyond comprehension. Must be a product of the ADD generation
Or Bettman should have found someone who you think would have done it right- a long time ago. clock has run out.

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08-08-2009, 11:37 PM
  #266
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So what if Balsillie changed his tune overnight and decided he was 100% in favour of buying the team and moving it back to Winnipeg, clear of any territorial issues? Would Bettman still oppose him on a business level?
There's no doubt in my mind whatsoever that Bettman would still oppose him.
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08-08-2009, 11:39 PM
  #267
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The Leafs haven't exactly been managed by brilliant minds, hell they went through the Ballard years, but the profit's always been there, regardless of how bumbling or backwards the ownership might be. What will your response be should one of Bettman's prefered suitors, whoever he may be, wins ownership of the Coyotes, and once again fails to make a profit? What will the excuse be?
You lose all credibility when you try to compare the Leafs to the Coyotes. Please stop. The profits have always been there because Toronto fans don't have many other choices, love hockey, and don't know any better If Reinsdorf can't turn a profit in 5 years, move em. It is not so much an "excuse" as it is solid reasoning to say that because a team has never had a proper footing (ownership, management, cash flow) it can never be evaluated as a true failure.

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08-08-2009, 11:39 PM
  #268
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Or Bettman should have found someone who you think would have done it right- a long time ago. clock has run out.
the huge irony for me is the Jets in Winnipeg im betting would never have lost 300 million over 14 years...geez i dont think the Jets even in the old building today would lose 67 million a season like last year would they?


and now the team has come back to haunt the NHL 14 years later causing the NHL damage it will carry for a very long time ....

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08-08-2009, 11:40 PM
  #269
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and now the team has come back to haunt the NHL 14 years later causing the NHL damage it will carry for a very long time ....
Yes, quite clearly, as the NHL has personally lost hundreds of millions by putting a team in Phoenix. Err what?

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08-08-2009, 11:42 PM
  #270
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not true- maybe you should apply to Osgoode Hall- then make your analogies, each case has a set of circumstances unique in it's own right- precedents are guidelines that are accepted as a path to follow should the judge decide similarities are the same- in this case major professional hockey at an elite level is different from donut stores- the analogy is if you can't shop at Tim's, you have an abundance of choice- NHL hockey in S Ont has one outlet-- 1 -- that's the argument
Honestly, the only difference between Tims & the NHL is scale. NHL is relatively larger purchases with several ways to purchase (watching TV--which makes distribution unlimited, going to games, buying merch) and people's willingness to commute for these purchases is much greater (because they are not routine).

Tim Hortons is a routine purchase which requires convenience and one store can only handle so much traffic.

Large-scale location strategies are instrumental to the success of either business. For tims, the magical number is problably something like having at least 1 tims within a 1km radius within cities.

For the NHL, the magic number is 1 per major metropolitan area; unless there is a lot of entertainment competition, in which case there can be synergies by having multiple teams. There are multiple teams in NY and LA because it results in an increase of the relevance of hockey in the city. Toronto doesn't need 2 teams as hockey is at the forefront.

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08-08-2009, 11:45 PM
  #271
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Yes, quite clearly, as the NHL has personally lost hundreds of millions by putting a team in Phoenix. Err what?
Well it hasn't exactly been a financial success story now, has it?

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08-08-2009, 11:46 PM
  #272
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Yes, quite clearly, as the NHL has personally lost hundreds of millions by putting a team in Phoenix. Err what?
14 years SOMEONE lost 300 plus million...that isnt success period!




and they(NHL) already sunk 40 millon in "so far" ....now drag it on another year or so ...last year 67 million loss...this year be any less? then were over 100 million sunk in the "hole".....



when this whole thing is done the NHL could have sunk 200 million into "floating " the Coyotes.......(there goes the expansion feee in toronto )


and the damage i speak of is in the public eye and having to air "dirty laundry" we see now as fans what the inside of the NHL is all about.. something i think they wished would never have been made public.....

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08-08-2009, 11:51 PM
  #273
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Team owners conclude Canadian billionaire would be untrustworthy
Just what exactly do they think Balsillie will do if he owns the team?

untrustworthy how?

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08-08-2009, 11:52 PM
  #274
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You lose all credibility when you try to compare the Leafs to the Coyotes. Please stop. The profits have always been there because Toronto fans don't have many other choices, love hockey, and don't know any better If Reinsdorf can't turn a profit in 5 years, move em. It is not so much an "excuse" as it is solid reasoning to say that because a team has never had a proper footing (ownership, management, cash flow) it can never be evaluated as a true failure.

Dude the chase for the discretionary dollar is greater in Toronto than probably all North American cities except LA and New York, you are truly delusional if you think the fans have no other choices for their sporting and entertainment dollar. To make that statement disqualifies you from commenting on the state of hockey in Ontario, Leaf fans may suffer but they suffer because they love the game, and while many of the fans simply can no longer afford to attend the games, they wonder why the NHL treats them with such disdain, this is why Balsillie has garnered a great deal of sympathy, quite alot of fans are fans are tired of being taken for granted, while the NHL bends over backwards for 10,000 fans (albeit some very passionate) in a desert that has shown will never work. I'll take Jerry Colangelo's word over any other person in Phoenix. If he says it can't work, well so be it.

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08-08-2009, 11:52 PM
  #275
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Well it hasn't exactly been a financial success story now, has it?
Are you of the opinion that the NHL should discourage people from investing in teams? They're allowed to take risks, and reap both the rewards and the pitfalls.

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14 years SOMEONE lost 300 plus million...that isnt success period!
That's nice. That SOMEONE or those PEOPLE were morons. It is their fault they lost that much. Not the NHLs. How, again, does this pertain to a future owner?

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and they(NHL) already sunk 40 millon in "so far" ....now drag it on another year or so ...last year 67 million loss...this year be any less? then were over 100 million sunk in the "hole".....
NHL holds the right to ownership and the franchise agreement. Needless to say, there is no risk in them loaning the club money.

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and the damage i speak of is in the public eye and having to air "dirty laundry" we see now as fans what the inside of the NHL is all about.. something i think they wished would never have been made public.....
Dirty Laundry and "what the NHL is all about" ? You mean protecting their business interests fiercely? If anything, the other owners are loving this. Seeing a league go all out in its quest to protect the league and its sovereignty is great for business. That is why they are paid the big $ and we are posting on a message board, is it not?

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