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Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XII: For a Few Dollars More

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Old
08-07-2009, 02:50 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by HockeyAnalysis View Post
They do it the same way that the Phoenix Coyotes did it. Put clauses in the contract that make it next to impossible, or extremely expensive, to get out of the lease outside of declaring bankruptcy, which can only be done if the team is failing miserably, in which case Balsillie is probably far worse off than the City of Hamilton would be (see Moyes and how much money he has lost).

Also, Balsillie doesn't want to own a team anywhere else (if he did, he'd have a team right now). He wants to own a team in Hamilton.
The NHL has already tried Hamilton as a market and it did not work.

The Tigers players were so ungrateful that they even went on strike in 1925 after finishing first and were suspended from the play-offs letting Montreal win the league title. Of course Montreal was beaten by the powerhouse Victoria Cougars for the Stanley Cup.

The player contracts were purchased by bootlegger Big Bill Dwyer and initially named the "New York Hamilton Tigers" by the time training camp started this was changed to the New York Americans.

I say no to Hamilton - if a team has proved it cannot support an NHL team they should not be given a second chance.

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08-07-2009, 02:54 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by HockeyAnalysis View Post
They do it the same way that the Phoenix Coyotes did it. Put clauses in the contract that make it next to impossible, or extremely expensive, to get out of the lease outside of declaring bankruptcy, which can only be done if the team is failing miserably, in which case Balsillie is probably far worse off than the City of Hamilton would be (see Moyes and how much money he has lost).

Also, Balsillie doesn't want to own a team anywhere else (if he did, he'd have a team right now). He wants to own a team in Hamilton.
Exactly. Some people don't seem to realize that the Coyotes are an insolvent franchise. The owner Moyes, by puting his team in bankruptcy, has lost all equity in the franchise. This is a very dire situation and even then it is not necessarily easy to break the lease which has a liquidated damages clause. In addition, as you mentioned, it is clear that Balsillie wants his franchise located in Hamilton. Finally, the NHL and Balsillie can contractually agree on the franchise's territory, which agreement would be binding on subsequent owners.

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08-07-2009, 02:59 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by RousselRising View Post
Could be wrong, but I thought that land was bought by RIM?

Still, my question stands. If a 20-32 year lease is signed, how does Hamilton protect itself from JB and his lawyers finding a way of breaking it for a better deal somewhere else?



And BTW, bbud: are you EVER NOT online?
Im not sure who owns the land i just did see a blurb saying he had a place if needed and he may in future break a lease but hes is really stuck on a Hamilton thing for whatever reasons so he would likely be very loyal .

and im only not online when i take my hat off lol
remember theres enough time to sleep when your dead

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08-07-2009, 03:07 PM
  #29
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I say no to Hamilton - if a team has proved it cannot support an NHL team they should not be given a second chance.
Minnesota?

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08-07-2009, 03:10 PM
  #30
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The NHL has already tried Hamilton as a market and it did not work.

The Tigers players were so ungrateful that they even went on strike in 1925 after finishing first and were suspended from the play-offs letting Montreal win the league title. Of course Montreal was beaten by the powerhouse Victoria Cougars for the Stanley Cup.

The player contracts were purchased by bootlegger Big Bill Dwyer and initially named the "New York Hamilton Tigers" by the time training camp started this was changed to the New York Americans.

I say no to Hamilton - if a team has proved it cannot support an NHL team they should not be given a second chance.
well i could live with Victoria wouldnt need a ferry to watch games then lol

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08-07-2009, 03:11 PM
  #31
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I went back a few pages on the Part XI thread, and didn't see this.
Yes, I could've missed it...

http://www.fromtherink.com/2009/8/7/...-may-be-better

It may be in Glendale's best finacial intrests not to want them back with all the stuff Reinsdorf is after. Glendale might be giving up quite a bit to Reinsdorf, but, what would they be getting back?

According to this post/guy, not enough.
A good posting by Mirtle. Anyone care to come up with some numbers that make it look like it's worthwhile for Glendale to pony up significant concessions (in the $23 million range) to keep the team there?

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08-07-2009, 03:11 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Death128 View Post
Minnesota?
I think he's ripping on the idea that short-term failure means always failure, which is what people are using to say Phoenix will never be successful.

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08-07-2009, 03:15 PM
  #33
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Im not sure who owns the land i just did see a blurb saying he had a place if needed and he may in future break a lease but hes is really stuck on a Hamilton thing for whatever reasons so he would likely be very loyal .
The report was that he purchased 25 acres of land in Cambridge south of Kitchener.
http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Columnists...10431-sun.html

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08-07-2009, 03:16 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
I say no to Hamilton - if a team has proved it cannot support an NHL team they should not be given a second chance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Death128 View Post
Minnesota?
And what about New Jersey? Or even the SF Bay Area (Oakland/San Jose)? Both seem to be thriving on their second time through (as is Minnesota).

Denver? They're in a down period at the moment, on their second team.

Kansas City? They want to try again.

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08-07-2009, 03:19 PM
  #35
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And what about New Jersey? Or even the SF Bay Area (Oakland/San Jose)? Both seem to be thriving on their second time through (as is Minnesota).

Denver? They're in a down period at the moment, on their second team.

Kansas City? They want to try again.
Hence the use of the ""

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08-07-2009, 03:20 PM
  #36
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And what about New Jersey? Or even the SF Bay Area (Oakland/San Jose)? Both seem to be thriving on their second time through (as is Minnesota).

Denver? They're in a down period at the moment, on their second team.

Kansas City? They want to try again.
Atlanta and Ottawa have also both been given second chances.

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08-07-2009, 03:22 PM
  #37
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A good posting by Mirtle. Anyone care to come up with some numbers that make it look like it's worthwhile for Glendale to pony up significant concessions (in the $23 million range) to keep the team there?
COG: 'We'll lose $500M if the 'yotes leave.'

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08-07-2009, 03:25 PM
  #38
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The report was that he purchased 25 acres of land in Cambridge south of Kitchener.
http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Columnists...10431-sun.html
There has been a few reports of different land purchases in the K/W and Cambridge area.
One was at Townline and the 401 and another at Hwy 97 and 401
Both of those location would be outside of the Buffalo and Toronto territorial rights area.

Also the Kitchener Rangers and the CofK are in the process of finding a location for new arena with a capacity of 9,000 to 12,000.
Perhaps they could team up on the arena? IMHO, the area could support both a NHL and an OHL team. Especially if JB picks up a large chunk of the arena costs. Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton and Ottawa have successful NHL and CHL teams.

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08-07-2009, 03:27 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Mulligan
Mod delete:

Mod edit: You claim Maloney is one of the best GM's in the league. He may certainly be, but what do you base this on ?

Phoenix has what is generally regarded as a strong up and coming farm system. Yet you blame the Friends of Gretzky for doing a bad job ?
Keith Gretzky actually has done a decent job. However, the FoGs have managed to actually destroy promising prospects with their incompetence. Sjostrom is a good example of how McSorely ruined our farm system. David LeNeveau is also another good example. Only recently have things turned the corner because they hired an actual real AHL coach (Greg Ireland) and have Maloney calling the draft shots now. Maloney is one of the top GMs, if you look at his body of work to date and what he has had to work with. Arguably his only mistake was Jokinen but that looked brilliant at the time, and I can't fault him for expecting it to work. Who knew Jokinen would pout like a spoiled child here?

Mod delete


Last edited by LadyStanley: 08-07-2009 at 03:44 PM. Reason: not needed
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08-07-2009, 03:28 PM
  #40
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I think he's ripping on the idea that short-term failure means always failure, which is what people are using to say Phoenix will never be successful.
I can see the reasons , i do think the biggest issue in Pho has been putting fans in seats and even fans from teh city tell us it had to win to keep fans and thast hard on many fans
I grew up in Vancouver some in Toronto we never really saw a winner and still support well , better managed a more stable on ice showing may help but fans need to be fans not just when they win or Pho will never be stable unfortunately.

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08-07-2009, 03:28 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Death128 View Post
COG: 'We'll lose $500M if the 'yotes leave.'
Actually how can they lose something they don't have?

What they lost is the cost of arena (principle and interest)
Anything else is anticipated profits!

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08-07-2009, 03:32 PM
  #42
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Actually how can they lose something they don't have?

What they lost is the cost of arena (principle and interest)
Anything else is anticipated profits!
And they will lose it whether the Coyotes stay or leave because they can't survive under the current arrangement and won't stay under the current arrangement.

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08-07-2009, 03:33 PM
  #43
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COG: 'We'll lose $500M if the 'yotes leave.'
Its a tough spot the losses are 30-60 million a yr depending on who is talking as of now and according to what ive seen COG invested under 200 million on Jobbing.com so its possible going JRs bid tehy could lose 350 million keeping the team as well.
All in all if they stay some parts of how this works really does need to change.

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08-07-2009, 03:34 PM
  #44
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Anything else is anticipated profits!
In the court system people tend to call those "damages." And It seems, to me at least, that in a way these people are entitled to compensation. When you have a life changing accident, you should be sure to tell the judge that your salary was just anticipated profit from your work effort. You don't really need it, do you?

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08-07-2009, 03:59 PM
  #45
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In the court system people tend to call those "damages." And It seems, to me at least, that in a way these people are entitled to compensation. When you have a life changing accident, you should be sure to tell the judge that your salary was just anticipated profit from your work effort. You don't really need it, do you?
so can Moyes by the same token claim damages for his losses both past and present as well , i am curious where those rules start and end in this case?

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08-07-2009, 04:00 PM
  #46
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In the court system people tend to call those "damages." And It seems, to me at least, that in a way these people are entitled to compensation. When you have a life changing accident, you should be sure to tell the judge that your salary was just anticipated profit from your work effort. You don't really need it, do you?
That's one way to look at it.
Another way is that hockey in Phoenix was never a sure thing (I know some people thought it was worth the gamble). For the CoG to go and spend that type of money on not a sure thing was a gamble. Especially not with a overly large tax base.
If I went to Vegas and spent all my earnings on a 50-50 game/bet and lost it all could I sue the casino/bookie for damages?

I would imagine that any court would need to see justifiable profit which may be difficult to do. Especially with the NHL track history of not overly successful franchises.

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08-07-2009, 04:00 PM
  #47
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Actually how can they lose something they don't have?

What they lost is the cost of arena (principle and interest)
Anything else is anticipated profits!
I'm sure that "damages" may also include the negative affect of losing the Coyotes and their 41 home games plus per year and the traffic it brings to Westgate, which is 6.5 million square feet of retail, entertainment, food service space. I'm sure those games and the traffic they'd bring to the area were a huge part of the business plan sold to those tenants.

In other words, the arena revenue itself is only smaller part of what could be lost.

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08-07-2009, 04:05 PM
  #48
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if having fans is totally dependant on winning you are in trouble each and every day any great team is one injury away from a bad stretch save maybe 1 or 2 but thats not a great plan .
I agree with you, it's not a viable system (unless we're talking about Detroit) but that's why you have to be patient. If there are at least 10,000 people in Phoenix willing to support almost a decade of failure when the team is in its infancy, how many would there be ten, twenty, fifty years from now? The Coyotes are helping grow hockey in Arizona and as time passes more and more people are getting into the sport. The video LadyStanley posted is a prime example.

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08-07-2009, 04:13 PM
  #49
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Minnesota?
Minnesota should never ever have moved. That was a serious, severe mistake on the NHL's part.

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08-07-2009, 04:14 PM
  #50
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I agree with you, it's not a viable system (unless we're talking about Detroit) but that's why you have to be patient. If there are at least 10,000 people in Phoenix willing to support almost a decade of failure when the team is in its infancy, how many would there be ten, twenty, fifty years from now? The Coyotes are helping grow hockey in Arizona and as time passes more and more people are getting into the sport. The video LadyStanley posted is a prime example.
I am not against growing hockey in any market it is a great game i have played it my whole life , only arguement is can a city continue to lose so much cash and survive at this level we see junior teams draw as many fans here most nights as the Coyotes do
so what can be done long term to accomplish growing hockey and fans while affording it?
I also dont see teh NHL as long term backing fans in Pho either teh JR bid was built for him to bail with ease and make it look like he tried Gb has not done his job to save you just doing a cya for himself .
I think there may be success in time but how many owners will want to give away 50+million a yr to get you there is a big question ?

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