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International Tournaments Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

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Old
08-10-2009, 10:35 AM
  #51
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Why aren't wc stats relavant when it comes to point totals yet is totally relevant when it comes to Russia winning the gold?


Your stated claim was that Russia is better then Canada at forwards and that it isn't even debateable.

how do you make this claim? by a one goal win a b tournament in which the top Canadian forwards were the most dominant offensive players?. You do realise hockey is a team game right? that goalies and such come into play and all right? You think the team Canada will put out in vancouver is the one that lost that one goal game in 2008?

How does any of what you say change the fact that getzlaf, Nash and Heatley outplayed your top guys like Ovechkin and Semin? The very same guys you say shows Russia is better up front and it's not even debateable.

And award winners are cyclical, 3 years before crosby was the Hart winner, big deal. .

So if malkin and Ovechkin blow out their knees nexy year and miss 30 games and zach Parise wins the hart does that mean that the U.s clearly has better forwards then anyone else going into Vancouver next year?

two Hart trophie nominees means you clearly have a better squad up front?

I keep asking you for facts that Russia is clearly better and you haven't given me a single one to date.

The only thing i claim is that Canada matches up very nicely with Russia up front and i've given you lots of facts for that. It's just your blind homerism that won't allow you to admit it here.

I've never made the claim that Canada is better at forward and it shouldn't even be debated. But you do concerning Russia.

And that's where you are off base, if you can't see that then i'm just going to assume you don't have a very good grasp of the current hockey stuation regarding talent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
That pretty much sums it up nicely.

The list of FACTS that I've submitted had very little to do with WHCs. Btw it certainly doesn't matter how many goals you score on Norway and Latvia, if at the end you lose. I'm sure Green would have given up all of his goals, had he had the gold around his neck at the end. But all of this is beside my point. You still haven't found an argument against the FACT that top Russian centers were nominated for Hart and top Canadian ones weren't.


Last edited by espo*: 08-10-2009 at 10:40 AM.
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Old
08-10-2009, 10:56 AM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
ppg is not as good a measure. Unfortunately every team will have players that miss the OG due to injury. A good ppg player that is regularily hurt is not going to help if he can't play due to injury. Also ppg stats favour those who sit out during injuries instead of playing through them.

Another good example is Crosby and Ovechkin in this years playoffs. Crosby had better ppg stats at the end of the Washington series, but by the end of the playoffs Ovy had a better ppg average.
Sure it is. It's much better than just points of the top 9 players. First of all there is only about 20 Russian regulars in the NHL and whoever did the stat purposefully chose a number 9. Why 9? Neither Canada nor Russia will have all of the top 9 on their roster. IIt is because 9 gives advantage for Canada over Russia.

So if you want total points for top point getters here you go
Top 3 - 320:283 Russia
Top 4 - 411:371 Russia
Top 5 - 490:458 Russia
Top 6 - 566:541 Russia
Top 7 - 631:623 Russia
Top 8 - 695:703 Canada
Top 9 - 754:783 Canada

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Old
08-10-2009, 11:05 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by espo View Post
I wouldn't even waste your time with us anyway if i were a Finn fan, i 'd just be worried about finally winning something other then a second and third place badge.

you guys have all the practice in the world at that. You should leave us alone and concentrate on your problems, they are definately considerable.
Now you're slamming Finland too?

For all the (as you say) 'considerable problems' Finland has, they've still beaten you 2 out of 3 times in NHL-olympics and managed to win more medals.

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Old
08-10-2009, 11:14 AM
  #54
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Yeah, and it's a real drag i have to, but he asked for it.

I normally really like their teams and their fans, usually way more classy then that and 90% of the time way more classy then Russian teams and it's fans.

A pity.

But if Finn fans can give knocks they should be able to take them too.

You seem to still be on that "i can slag your team but you can't slag ours" kick.

Where does that come from anyway?

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08-10-2009, 12:18 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
ppg is not as good a measure. Unfortunately every team will have players that miss the OG due to injury.A good ppg player that is regularily hurt is not going to help if he can't play due to injury.
Problem is you’re assuming players will get hurt for olympics. Whether they do or not is irrelevant; you can’t base a valid ‘study’ on assumptions because they don’t always hold true.
What is needed are concrete facts.

And facts are: when put on an even playing field (points-per-game), Russia’s top 9 outscored Canada’s.

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08-10-2009, 12:23 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by espo View Post
Yeah, and it's a real drag i have to, but he asked for it.

I normally really like their teams and their fans, usually way more classy then that and 90% of the time way more classy then Russian teams and it's fans.

A pity.

But if Finn fans can give knocks they should be able to take them too.

You seem to still be on that "i can slag your team but you can't slag ours" kick.

Where does that come from anyway?

How did he 'slag' team Canada? He said nothing of the sort.

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08-10-2009, 12:54 PM
  #57
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As things stand today, I'd say the Russians make a pretty strong argument to having the best team on paper or at least the best top 6 forwards. But any theoretical superiority will be largely irrelevant once the puck drops. The nature of these tournaments means that in addition to talent, winning requires being able to gel quickly, peak at exactly the right moment, and also probably luck. Once you hit the QF's, it's a matter of winning 3 straight games; The parity among the top 6 or 7 nations means that one poor game likely = a ticket home. (The most glaring example was Sweden in 2002)

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Old
08-10-2009, 12:55 PM
  #58
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Apparently saying I think Russia has the advantage in the forward department vs Canada was a mockery against Canada (While that was the very name of the thread, questioning and asking for opinions about it and I do think that any team in a long long time is finally challenging Canada on that forward list.). Also I did pay my attention how he is slacking you guys back way more than you did and all you were doing was trying to reason why you guys think why Russia is better than Canada in that department.

So maybe those two were the reasons to start mocking Finnish ice hockey team?-) Hehe.

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Old
08-10-2009, 01:04 PM
  #59
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it's funny how you said that about Canada but not about Russia.

You talk about my national pride being hurt yet don't say a damn thing about Russians fans pride when they are going on that it is a "fact" they are the best.

A team that hasn't won a gold medal since the unified team old soviet days going on like they are unquestionably the kings of the world doesn't strike you as quite cocky?

Why is that?

To me it seems you are quite particular in your criticisms.

And i consider that insulting, but go ahead and have it your way if you wish.Just don't try and tell me their fans can rag our team and we are not allowed to take a shot at theirs.

I don't see why there should be two sets of rules.

do you get it now?

if you don't then just ignore what i have to say.

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08-10-2009, 01:25 PM
  #60
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I didn't say anything about the Russians mocking since they didn't start it. You kept throwing it against them while they were only talking about them being more comfortable with their forward group, just that it looks like you took it as a mockery yourself versus precious Canada. For me it was pretty normal and I've been following such talks for some time when it comes to speculating rosters. Earlier it's been that Canada has been the #1 going to the big tournaments and although it has felt a bit cocky writing everyone else off the gold standard beforehand, maybe it's been rightfully so as it might be the case this time for the Russians, though it is very close. I have absolutely said nothing against Canada, just the opinion that looking currently the Russian top forward lines look very strong. (I did mention I could go to that slacking line with certain issues but it would not help anyone, just create more fuzz around nothing and staying out of the real context of the thread.)

Saying all that, I can't say which one will do better in Vancouver. Right now I'd pick the Russian forwards but on gameday it might be that it's Canada that beats them all, or maybe the Swedes. Who knows, daily form, chemistry, coaching, players executing gameplan, energy guys, goaltending matter at least as much as the roster.


Last edited by Depch: 08-10-2009 at 05:42 PM.
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Old
08-10-2009, 04:40 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
Even with those guys it still wouldn't give Russia enough to move into number one. Also, considering Dallman, a borderline NA minor league defenceman outscored Radulov by 9 points, I think it is a stretch to say that either of them would have scored more than Slava Kozlov or Zherdev last season.
you are still using that useless comparisons (dallman) in wrong place.can i remind you about Ovechkin who had 26 points in 37 games on his last season in Russia and he wasnt even in top 30 by stats but next year in NHL he got 106 points in 81 games and was top 3 ! how is that your logic dosnt work here but just shows how hypocrite you are. even more , that Radulov made Canadians look like amateurs in 09 WC finals.what should i say now? canadians are loosers?(i do not think that !!) or what..... Radulov got a 58 points (Zherdev 58 points last season) in NHL at 2007/08 season and most definitly he is much better right now than he was a more than year ago. we all saw at WC 09 how "good" Zherdev realy is . no doubt. there is a lot of guys in Russia(russians) who are much better than him.but you put him on Russian TOP 9 list get a real life dude instead of talking a rubbish

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08-10-2009, 04:41 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Depch View Post
I didn't say anything about the Russians mocking since they didn't start it. You kept throwing it against them while they were only talking about them being more comfortable with their forward group, just that it looks like you took it as a mockery yourself versus precious Canada. For me it was pretty normal and I've been following such talks for some time when it comes to speculating rosters. Earlier it's been that Canada has been the #1 going to the big tournaments and although it has felt a bit cocky writing everyone else off the goal standard beforehand, maybe it's been rightfully so as it might be the case this time for the Russians, though it is very close. I have absolutely said nothing against Canada, just the opinion that looking currently the Russian top forward lines look very strong. (I did mention I could go to that slacking line with certain issues but it would not help anyone, just create more fuzz around nothing and staying out of the real context of the thread.)

Saying all that, I can't say which one will do better in Vancouver. Right now I'd pick the Russian forwards but on gameday it might be that it's Canada that beats them all, or maybe the Swedes. Who knows, daily form, chemistry, coaching, players executing gameplan, energy guys, goaltending matter at least as much as the roster.
good post.

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Old
08-10-2009, 05:31 PM
  #63
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Does espo have you guys going, or what?

I can't believe you're taking this guy seriously.

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Old
08-10-2009, 06:12 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
I'm not going to waste my time on Espo anymore, he is the biggest hypocrite and a demagogue I have ever seen on a hockey board. When he is given FACTS (and nothing but facts) he babbles some demagoguery about refs and how he will gloat when (not even "if," but "when") Canada wins.

KMan777: we can only go by what is available right now: candidates' stats, past performances, and overall trends. OBVIOUSLY everything I've said only pertains to the 08-09 season. It's possible that Getzlaf will outperform Datsyuk in the next season. But for now we only have their previous history to go by.

My argument has been that Russia is better than Canada ON PAPER in offense (wings and center). It's based on FACTS (award nominees, achievements, etc.) and speculations (performances at WHC, etc.). Nowhere did I indicate that Russia should have the Gold handed to them before the tournament begins.

What happened to Russia's silver in Nagano?

And, wouldn't you agree, that the last 4 years matter more than the last 8? Also, leave juniors out of it: it's a whole different game.

As for the Hart winners: I'll go with the teamful of present nominees, rather than past winners. I can't believe you've said that Fedorov can't perform at the Olympic level (did you see that guy in Quebec?) but Pronger and Thornton can. Both have been nothing but liability at the international level. Even St. Louis is not exactly a dominant force (certainly not at the past two WHC finals).

Finally, you call the last WHC team pathetic, what would you call the Russian roster? Decimated by injuries to the point that they could only ice 11 forwards in the final, with Kovalchuk being double-shifted! Of those that played: Radulov injured, Morozov injured, Frolov barely off his flu, and so on, and so forth. Kovalchuk said in an interview that that victory came harder than the one in Quebec (on enemy territory), because of injuries.

Does all this seem logical to you?
Point taken, obviously at this point it is realistic to expect a slightly better performance from the two Russian players than the Canadian ones, because at this point Ovechkin and Datsyuk are both playing a little better. I wanted to make the distinction between “playing better” and “better players”. It seemed to me you were using those facts (this year’s Hart winner let’s say) to say, for instance, that Ovechkin is factually and conclusively better than Crosby. Something I would disagree with. I would agree that at this point he is playing better and the odds are tipped in his favour.

I didn’t include the Nagano Olympics because the performance of the players at that tournament isn’t relevant to this one. Very few if any of the players on those two teams are going to be at these Olympics.

That’s fair to leave the juniors out of it, but I included the past eight years instead of four because several players such as Kovalev (players who could be integral at these Olympics) have not been able to display their competency on the world stage in the last four years. He was at the 2002 Olympics though and he was great there. Therefore I think the past four years are not a true representation of “Russia” or “Canada”. I think 8 years is a good sample that reflects the competency of both countries on the world stage.

I think St. Louis is quite capable of performing at his Hart rate, just look what he did on a pathetic team with an injured Lecavalier this past year. I agree about Pronger, although I don’t believe I mentioned him, he is a useless pylon. Niedermayer definitely hasn’t regressed since his Conn Smythe, Thornton…hard to say. He did do very well at the World Cup. I have no doubt Fedorov can play well at the international level, I just don’t think he’s a “Hart trophy player” anymore. I don’t think you can say you have a Hart winner in him on your team and really mean something by it, because he’s just not the same player he was when he won it. IMO he plays the game at a lower level now, although more qualified people should probably be the judge of that, I missed seeing him in Quebec, I live in Halifax and was watching those games.

That just proves my point even more though. I’m saying the Canadian team was crap, you’re saying the Russian team was sub-par. Both of those teams are nothing like what the Olympic teams will look like, so that tournament gives us very little insight into how the two nations will perform at the Olympics. It’s a credit to the Russian nation that they won, but I don’t think it means very much for the Olympics.

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Old
08-10-2009, 06:28 PM
  #65
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If we wanna go deeper on the issue, then one thing I have to say is that I have never seen Russia play so good as a team as they have since Vyacheslav Bykov stepped in as a head coach on august 2006. After the olympics (Bykov didn't coach there) in 3 tournaments (not counting in euro hockey tours) they are 2 gold and 1 bronze in World Champs. After the Soviet years the teamplay has been rather poor untill the era of Bykov imo, maybe on the exception with Nagano where they stumbled on superhot Hasek. On the other hand timespan of 3 years with not Olympic/World Cup level tournaments might not be enough for a just opinion there, but the rosters have been pretty good in the last few world champs and teamplay has been very impressive.

This is one thing where Canada has been ahead of Russia always (after Soviet years) just untill very recently. Now it seems this side is very even too. Looking forward to some great matches.


Last edited by Depch: 08-11-2009 at 04:57 AM.
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Old
08-10-2009, 08:15 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Siberian View Post
Sure it is. It's much better than just points of the top 9 players. First of all there is only about 20 Russian regulars in the NHL and whoever did the stat purposefully chose a number 9. Why 9? Neither Canada nor Russia will have all of the top 9 on their roster. IIt is because 9 gives advantage for Canada over Russia.

So if you want total points for top point getters here you go
Top 3 - 320:283 Russia
Top 4 - 411:371 Russia
Top 5 - 490:458 Russia
Top 6 - 566:541 Russia
Top 7 - 631:623 Russia
Top 8 - 695:703 Canada
Top 9 - 754:783 Canada
Nine is significant because not all of the 12 or 13 forwards on a team are there to create offence. If we the offensive stats of the equivalent of a whole team Canada would be way, way ahead.


Last edited by Mr Kanadensisk: 08-10-2009 at 09:40 PM.
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08-10-2009, 09:25 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
Problem is you’re assuming players will get hurt for olympics. Whether they do or not is irrelevant; you can’t base a valid ‘study’ on assumptions because they don’t always hold true.
What is needed are concrete facts.
Sorry to make an assumption based on historical evidence. I won't bother trying to convince you that the sun wise rise tomorrow.

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08-10-2009, 09:38 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by pouskin74 View Post
you are still using that useless comparisons (dallman) in wrong place.can i remind you about Ovechkin who had 26 points in 37 games on his last season in Russia and he wasnt even in top 30 by stats but next year in NHL he got 106 points in 81 games and was top 3 ! how is that your logic dosnt work here but just shows how hypocrite you are. even more , that Radulov made Canadians look like amateurs in 09 WC finals.what should i say now? canadians are loosers?(i do not think that !!) or what..... Radulov got a 58 points (Zherdev 58 points last season) in NHL at 2007/08 season and most definitly he is much better right now than he was a more than year ago. we all saw at WC 09 how "good" Zherdev realy is . no doubt. there is a lot of guys in Russia(russians) who are much better than him.but you put him on Russian TOP 9 list get a real life dude instead of talking a rubbish
Since you have mastered rubish and babble I will keep this short.
Comparing Radulov to Ovechkin is ridiculous, they both might be Russian, but it ends there. Radulov is no longer regularily competing againts the best players in the world, so it is unlikely that he has improved as much as you think. Slava Kozlov had 76 points last season and it is a stretch to say Radulov would have had more.

Morozov does well on the big ice, but he really struggles with the physical game on the small ice. It is very unlikely that he could play a full 82 game NHL schedule at this point.

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08-10-2009, 10:21 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
Sorry to make an assumption based on historical evidence. I won't bother trying to convince you that the sun wise rise tomorrow.
Errr....the sun doesn't rise in some places. Looks like you're back to making more assumptions Mr Kanadensisk.


This is getting too easy.

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08-11-2009, 12:07 AM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
Nine is significant because not all of the 12 or 13 forwards on a team are there to create offence. If we the offensive stats of the equivalent of a whole team Canada would be way, way ahead.
I think it's better to count first 2 scoring lines. 3rd and 4th could be checking lines and don't need to score.

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08-11-2009, 12:33 AM
  #71
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Another one of these threads, jeez
Hey its only gonna get worse. Best is to sit back have a coke and popcorn and enjoy.

In tournaments like this one bad bounce knocks out teams with any talent but its pointless to say lets let the players to the talking.

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08-11-2009, 03:56 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by pouskin74 View Post
you are still using that useless comparisons (dallman) in wrong place.can i remind you about Ovechkin who had 26 points in 37 games on his last season in Russia and he wasnt even in top 30 by stats but next year in NHL he got 106 points in 81 games and was top 3 ! how is that your logic dosnt work here but just shows how hypocrite you are.
How is Dallman borderline minor league anyway? The guy outscored Jagr! That's almost Norris trophy material!

Btw, Morozov outscored Jagr by 20 pts while Jagr outscored Zherdev by 10. That alone probably puts Russia above Canada, not that this ranking has any relevance but still.

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08-11-2009, 05:35 AM
  #73
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How is Dallman borderline minor league anyway? The guy outscored Jagr! That's almost Norris trophy material!

Btw, Morozov outscored Jagr by 20 pts while Jagr outscored Zherdev by 10. That alone probably puts Russia above Canada, not that this ranking has any relevance but still.
You do realize that since 2005 Jagr's scoring totals had been dropping considerably. Based on the trend he would have scored around 50 points this year had he stayed in the NHL. But then again Morozov did outscore an NHL MVP last year which means he must be practically the best player in the world right?

Dallman could not hold down a regular spot in an NHL line up, went to the KHL and was arguably the best player in the league last year.

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08-11-2009, 06:52 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
You do realize that since 2005 Jagr's scoring totals had been dropping considerably. Based on the trend he would have scored around 50 points this year had he stayed in the NHL. But then again Morozov did outscore an NHL MVP last year which means he must be practically the best player in the world right?

Dallman could not hold down a regular spot in an NHL line up, went to the KHL and was arguably the best player in the league last year.
as i sayed before. you are HYPOCRITE. you are ready to see what you like to see but if not then you just dont see it....

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08-11-2009, 09:05 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by steap View Post
I think it's better to count first 2 scoring lines. 3rd and 4th could be checking lines and don't need to score.
You didn't see the SCF this year? Secondary scoring was a major factor in determining the winner.

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