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Old
08-11-2009, 12:24 PM
  #76
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I don't see why not, i think pointing out that it isn't fact Russia has a better forward set then Canada is very relevant.

If you don't think that's relevant i wouldn't take you seriously.

I admit i let anger at some of what i've been reading get the better of me the last few days and i apoligise here right now to the guys i've pissed off. But they are still relevant issues.

Anyway,Why don't we let the players decide next February who is better, not just take some armchair hockey experts words for it.

it will be them that prove or disprove any of what we believe here.

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Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
Does espo have you guys going, or what?

I can't believe you're taking this guy seriously.


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Old
08-11-2009, 01:04 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by daver View Post
You didn't see the SCF this year? Secondary scoring was a major factor in determining the winner.
No, I didn't. I don't care about NHL.

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08-11-2009, 03:53 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
Errr....the sun doesn't rise in some places. Looks like you're back to making more assumptions Mr Kanadensisk.


This is getting too easy.
Your intelligence leaves me speechless.

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Old
08-11-2009, 03:58 PM
  #79
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as i sayed before. you are HYPOCRITE. you are ready to see what you like to see but if not then you just dont see it....
If that were true I'd be cheering for your team.

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08-11-2009, 05:35 PM
  #80
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Great thread

"God, give me the ability to punch people through TCP/IP"


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Old
08-11-2009, 05:48 PM
  #81
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Russia top four forwards > Canada's top four forwards

Canada's forwards > Russia's forwards

Canada's defense > Russia's defense

Canada's goaltending > Russia's goaltending

Canada > Russia

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Old
08-11-2009, 07:18 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daver View Post
Russia top four forwards > Canada's top four forwards
True. My proof: stats and award nominations for the NHL08-09 seasons.

Quote:
Canada's forwards > Russia's forwards
Any proofs?

Quote:
Canada's defense > Russia's defense
Probably true. Although that's debatable. I don't know how Korneev and Atyushov will do against Nedermeyer, but they did pretty well against Green, Boumeister, and Weber. Oddly enough, both Russia's and Canada's defense corps won't change that much from the WHC. Russia will add Volchenkov and Gonchar, and Canada -- Pronger and Nedermeyer.

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Canada's goaltending > Russia's goaltending
VERY questionable. If you go by Brodeur's pedigree, you have a point. But also consider his age and the fact that the only time Brodeur faced Nabokov was in Turin. They both underperformed in SC PO 09. Very questionable.

Also:

Russia's coaching staff > Canada's coaching staff. I just don't see how these four horses will effectively pull the same carriage for Canada. Bykov is progressing each year and created a terrific atmosphere in the team. Zakharkin is a theory wiz.

So I wouldn't be so hasty. In fact, Russia is clearly the team to beat this year. Will they win it, I, of course, don't know. That's what the ice is for.

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Old
08-11-2009, 10:42 PM
  #83
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What I can do right now is compare the proposed lines on both teams, the way I see them. This is all pure speculation, based exclusively on the state of affairs in 2008-2009


Gagne-Crosby-Iginla vs. Ovechkin-Fedorov-Semin

All three Canadians are in their prime. Crosby sees ice well, good puck-carrier, and has a tremendous hockey sense, especially around the net. Doesn't have a good shot, but Iginla does. Ovechkin is the best sniper and the most tenacious player in the world, and he simply cannot be stopped, although his arsenal of moves is limited. Semin is a pure sniper, but a little soft. Fedorov is way old, but Bykov's system (centers pulled back) makes it easier for him, especially considering the short tournament and that he is to endure less stress in Russia next season. His experience and composure are invaluable. They played together for over a year, have a good feel for each other, and compliment each other well. This is why I give the edge to the Russian line.

Heatley-Getzlaf-Nash vs. Kovalchuk-Malkin-Frolov

Both lines from past WHChampionships. Canadian line is certainly menacing, and has been their most efficient. Every player compliments each other well. But how can you not like Chuck and Malkin together? Kovy is on top of his game: he is the most comfortable I've ever seen, after finally winning something. Add LA's go-to-guy, Frolov, and you have a true powerhouse. Edge: Russians.

Toews-Lecavalier-St Louis vs. Radulov-Datsyuk-Saprykin

Radulov and Saprykin won the WHC09 gold. Add Selke winner / Hart nominee Dats, who can shut down anybody in the world. But Canadian line is just as formidable. If Vinnie stays healthy, he can rock the ice. Toews is a great skater, and St. Louis is a terrific finisher. Edge: even.

Carter-Richards-Staal vs. Zaripov-Tereschenko-Morozov

Both lines are very good: Carter & Richards are hitting their prime. ZM are softer, but they've been together for years and understand each other very well. Still, I give the edge to Canadians.

Neidermeyer-Boyle vs. Gonchar-Volchenkov. You saw the Pens with and without Gonchar. Russians, easily.
Weber-Bouwmesteer vs. Markov-Tyutin. Russians again. Markov is the most complete D-man in the league. Bouw sucks
Keith-Regher vs. Proshkin-Nikulin. Canadians.

Burns, Doan vs. Zubov, Kovalev. Russians.

Brodeur, Luongo, Ward vs. Nabokov, Varlamov, Bryzgalov. I give a slight edge to the Canadians, although every time Brodeur and Ward faced Russia, they lost. Still...

Babcock, Ruff, Lemers, Hitchock vs. Bykov, Zakharkin. Everybody knows where I stand here. Edge: Russia..

Special teams:
Powerplays are about even, penalty kills I give to Canada. Russia has a deficit of true defensive defensemen, although Volchenkov, Tyutin, and Markov are certainly quite capable of playing that role.

Overall:
On paper, Russia is a clear favorite. In reality, this means zilch. Let's hope they meet in the finals.

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Old
08-11-2009, 11:38 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
ESPO: the question wasn't "who's gonna win?" but "who's gonna have the better team?" That can be answered in two ways.

Talent-wise, Russia is clearly better upfront. Top snipers, top scorers, and all current award winners are Russian. Their stars are all in their prime, they are battle-tested, they are all winners at the NHL/KHL/IIHF level. Canadian forwards are certainly talented, but nobody on their team is on the level of Russia's Big 4 (Dats, Ovie, Kovie, and Malx). Canada is slightly better in their own end, but not by the same margin. Their big D are mostly past their prime. So is Brodeur, and Luongo has never accomplished anything at any serious level. At least Nabokov is now a World Champion.

The real question is: how will all these players gel into one team. Russian team has a history of coming apart and never really playing like a team (Nagano98 was the closest they've ever been to a TEAM), but in the past couple of years they have done just that. Canada usually beat their opponents with sheer talent. I don't remember many instances when their SYSTEM prevailed, except, maybe WHC05. For the first time in recent memory, Russian players will play one system, a system they are familiar with (everybody except Datsyuk, Kovalev -- if, and Zubov -- if, has played the Bykov's system before), and a system that has been proven to produce results.

So, all in all, I say Russia will be a better team. Who will win? We'll see.
Uh, I think Luongo has actually 2 world championship gold medals. Could be wrong it might be just 1. Not sure though.

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Old
08-11-2009, 11:46 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
ESPO: the question wasn't "who's gonna win?" but "who's gonna have the better team?" That can be answered in two ways.

Talent-wise, Russia is clearly better upfront. Top snipers, top scorers, and all current award winners are Russian. Their stars are all in their prime, they are battle-tested, they are all winners at the NHL/KHL/IIHF level. Canadian forwards are certainly talented, but nobody on their team is on the level of Russia's Big 4 (Dats, Ovie, Kovie, and Malx). Canada is slightly better in their own end, but not by the same margin. Their big D are mostly past their prime. So is Brodeur, and Luongo has never accomplished anything at any serious level. At least Nabokov is now a World Champion.

The real question is: how will all these players gel into one team. Russian team has a history of coming apart and never really playing like a team (Nagano98 was the closest they've ever been to a TEAM), but in the past couple of years they have done just that. Canada usually beat their opponents with sheer talent. I don't remember many instances when their SYSTEM prevailed, except, maybe WHC05. For the first time in recent memory, Russian players will play one system, a system they are familiar with (everybody except Datsyuk, Kovalev -- if, and Zubov -- if, has played the Bykov's system before), and a system that has been proven to produce results.

So, all in all, I say Russia will be a better team. Who will win? We'll see.
Nobody on Canada is on Datsyuk's, Ovechkin's, Kovalchuk's and Malkin's level?

Um, ever heard of Crosby? And I'd put Iginla and Getzlaf very much on Datsyuk's and Kovalchuk's level.

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Old
08-12-2009, 02:09 AM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
What I can do right now is compare the proposed lines on both teams, the way I see them. This is all pure speculation, based exclusively on the state of affairs in 2008-2009


Gagne-Crosby-Iginla vs. Ovechkin-Fedorov-Semin

All three Canadians are in their prime. Crosby sees ice well, good puck-carrier, and has a tremendous hockey sense, especially around the net. Doesn't have a good shot, but Iginla does. Ovechkin is the best sniper and the most tenacious player in the world, and he simply cannot be stopped, although his arsenal of moves is limited. Semin is a pure sniper, but a little soft. Fedorov is way old, but Bykov's system (centers pulled back) makes it easier for him, especially considering the short tournament and that he is to endure less stress in Russia next season. His experience and composure are invaluable. They played together for over a year, have a good feel for each other, and compliment each other well. This is why I give the edge to the Russian line.
With all due respect, I don't see how you can give the edge to the Russian 1st line here, considering the fact that Crosby battled this same line to at least a draw in the 2nd round of the playoffs this past year, albeit with Guerin and Kunitz on his wings. He'll likely do a little bit better with Iginla and Gagne/E. Staal on his wings (although I'm not entirely convinced that Gagne is cut out for first line duties on this team). I'm sure this is a matchup Canada would love to have. If Gagne does play on this line he has shown chemistry with Iginal before; Crosby has demonstrated he can develop chemistry and play well with anyone. I actually give the easy edge to Canada here. Different story if Datsyuk gets moved up the 1st line instead of Fedorov.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Heatley-Getzlaf-Nash vs. Kovalchuk-Malkin-Frolov

Both lines from past WHChampionships. Canadian line is certainly menacing, and has been their most efficient. Every player compliments each other well. But how can you not like Chuck and Malkin together? Kovy is on top of his game: he is the most comfortable I've ever seen, after finally winning something. Add LA's go-to-guy, Frolov, and you have a true powerhouse. Edge: Russians.
I'll concede that, although both 2nd lines are indeed excellent, Russia's has the edge based on recent performance Malkin's unstoppable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Toews-Lecavalier-St Louis vs. Radulov-Datsyuk-Saprykin

Radulov and Saprykin won the WHC09 gold. Add Selke winner / Hart nominee Dats, who can shut down anybody in the world. But Canadian line is just as formidable. If Vinnie stays healthy, he can rock the ice. Toews is a great skater, and St. Louis is a terrific finisher. Edge: even.
I doubt Toews makes the 3rd line, so it will more likely be E. Staal on this line. Sure, Dats can shut-down Vinny, but St. Louis and Staal would still eat Radulov and Saprykin alive. If you're Russia, you would want Dats matched-up against Sid or Getz, wouldn't you? Another matchup that Canada would love to see. Plus, Staal and St. Louis are useful beyond a 3rd line role. Edge: Canada.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Carter-Richards-Staal vs. Zaripov-Tereschenko-Morozov

Both lines are very good: Carter & Richards are hitting their prime. ZM are softer, but they've been together for years and understand each other very well. Still, I give the edge to Canadians.
It will more likely be a Morrow-Richards-Doan/Toews 4th line for Canada, all are pretty versatile and can play throughout the top 3 lines. This line will likely see some ice-time against the top 2 Russian lines in a shut-down / forechecking role, and I look forward to seeing this group play on the smaller ice surface. Easy edge to Canada here as well. Russia simply doesn't have Canada's depth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Neidermeyer-Boyle vs. Gonchar-Volchenkov. You saw the Pens with and without Gonchar. Russians, easily.
Weber-Bouwmesteer vs. Markov-Tyutin. Russians again. Markov is the most complete D-man in the league. Bouw sucks
Keith-Regher vs. Proshkin-Nikulin. Canadians.

Burns, Doan vs. Zubov, Kovalev. Russians.
At least get the Canadian defense pairings reasonably right - Niedermayer and Boyle? Top pairing should be Nieds and Pronger, and I'd take them any day of the week over Gonchar-Volchenkov (admittedly an under-rated pairing). It looks like you aren't a big fan of Pronger, but the guy has proved consistenly (and recently) that he's a top-5 defenceman in the NHL. As has Nieds.

Markov is an excellent defenseman (though not, in my opinion, the most complete d-man in the league), though I'd still take Weber-J-Bo as the 2nd pairing as well. Very slight edge to Markov over J-Bo, while Weber is easily superior to Tyutin in all areas of the game.

Agreed that the shut-down pairing of Keith-Regehr is superior to the Russian 3rd pairing. Their size and defensive capabilities will be relied on heavily against the top Russian lines.

On the extras - likely (hopefully) Toews and Green for Canada. For what they'll bring to the game (Toews - faceoffs/speed/forechecking/defensive awareness; Green - dynamic power-play quarterback, great game-breaking capabilities), I'll take Canada's 13th forward / 7th defenceman. Another nod to Canada's superior depth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Brodeur, Luongo, Ward vs. Nabokov, Varlamov, Bryzgalov. I give a slight edge to the Canadians, although every time Brodeur and Ward faced Russia, they lost. Still...

Babcock, Ruff, Lemers, Hitchock vs. Bykov, Zakharkin. Everybody knows where I stand here. Edge: Russia..

Special teams:
Powerplays are about even, penalty kills I give to Canada. Russia has a deficit of true defensive defensemen, although Volchenkov, Tyutin, and Markov are certainly quite capable of playing that role.
Goaltending is kind of up in the air - not Canada's primary strength as in past tournaments. While Nabakov and Varlamov are a solid 1-2 and will get the job done, I feel comfortable with Brodeur's track record in the NHL and internationally.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the coaching staff - I think Babcock is the best in the world.

Might disagree with you on special teams - I think Russia's might have the edge given their top-line talent. Canada's penalty-killing looks great - basically, I'd feel comfortable sticking any one of those 13 forwards out on a 5 on 4 situation, as well as 6 of the 7 defencemen (Green excluded). Don't think you can say the same about Russia

Overall:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
On paper, Russia is a clear favorite. In reality, this means zilch. Let's hope they meet in the finals.
Maybe not -though I would agree that the "paper" matchups mean very little at this point. The flow of the game (if these two teams ever do meet) will dictate line combinations and matchups. I would agree that Russia has the edge in talent in the top-6 forwards (on paper), and I think that most posters here would agree that Canada has the edge in forward depth and defence. Feel free to disagree with my opinions.

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Old
08-12-2009, 02:35 AM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
What I can do right now is compare the proposed lines on both teams, the way I see them. This is all pure speculation, based exclusively on the state of affairs in 2008-2009


Gagne-Crosby-Iginla vs. Ovechkin-Fedorov-Semin

All three Canadians are in their prime. Crosby sees ice well, good puck-carrier, and has a tremendous hockey sense, especially around the net. Doesn't have a good shot, but Iginla does. Ovechkin is the best sniper and the most tenacious player in the world, and he simply cannot be stopped, although his arsenal of moves is limited. Semin is a pure sniper, but a little soft. Fedorov is way old, but Bykov's system (centers pulled back) makes it easier for him, especially considering the short tournament and that he is to endure less stress in Russia next season. His experience and composure are invaluable. They played together for over a year, have a good feel for each other, and compliment each other well. This is why I give the edge to the Russian line.

Heatley-Getzlaf-Nash vs. Kovalchuk-Malkin-Frolov

Both lines from past WHChampionships. Canadian line is certainly menacing, and has been their most efficient. Every player compliments each other well. But how can you not like Chuck and Malkin together? Kovy is on top of his game: he is the most comfortable I've ever seen, after finally winning something. Add LA's go-to-guy, Frolov, and you have a true powerhouse. Edge: Russians.

Toews-Lecavalier-St Louis vs. Radulov-Datsyuk-Saprykin

Radulov and Saprykin won the WHC09 gold. Add Selke winner / Hart nominee Dats, who can shut down anybody in the world. But Canadian line is just as formidable. If Vinnie stays healthy, he can rock the ice. Toews is a great skater, and St. Louis is a terrific finisher. Edge: even.

Carter-Richards-Staal vs. Zaripov-Tereschenko-Morozov

Both lines are very good: Carter & Richards are hitting their prime. ZM are softer, but they've been together for years and understand each other very well. Still, I give the edge to Canadians.

Neidermeyer-Boyle vs. Gonchar-Volchenkov. You saw the Pens with and without Gonchar. Russians, easily.
Weber-Bouwmesteer vs. Markov-Tyutin. Russians again. Markov is the most complete D-man in the league. Bouw sucks
Keith-Regher vs. Proshkin-Nikulin. Canadians.

Burns, Doan vs. Zubov, Kovalev. Russians.

Brodeur, Luongo, Ward vs. Nabokov, Varlamov, Bryzgalov. I give a slight edge to the Canadians, although every time Brodeur and Ward faced Russia, they lost. Still...

Babcock, Ruff, Lemers, Hitchock vs. Bykov, Zakharkin. Everybody knows where I stand here. Edge: Russia..

Special teams:
Powerplays are about even, penalty kills I give to Canada. Russia has a deficit of true defensive defensemen, although Volchenkov, Tyutin, and Markov are certainly quite capable of playing that role.

Overall:
On paper, Russia is a clear favorite. In reality, this means zilch. Let's hope they meet in the finals.




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Old
08-12-2009, 07:40 AM
  #88
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With all due respect, I don't see how you can give the edge to the Russian 1st line here, considering the fact that Crosby battled this same line to at least a draw in the 2nd round of the playoffs this past year, albeit with Guerin and Kunitz on his wings. He'll likely do a little bit better with Iginla and Gagne/E. Staal on his wings (although I'm not entirely convinced that Gagne is cut out for first line duties on this team). I'm sure this is a matchup Canada would love to have. If Gagne does play on this line he has shown chemistry with Iginal before; Crosby has demonstrated he can develop chemistry and play well with anyone. I actually give the easy edge to Canada here. Different story if Datsyuk gets moved up the 1st line instead of Fedorov.
First of all, they rarely played together in last playoffs. Ovechkin mostly played with Backstrom. Secondly, Capitals don't play the same style as Team Russia. I don't know if Bykov moves Datsyuk up: he likes to spread the wealth. But if he does, that line should simply KILL whoever they play against.

Quote:
I doubt Toews makes the 3rd line, so it will more likely be E. Staal on this line. Sure, Dats can shut-down Vinny, but St. Louis and Staal would still eat Radulov and Saprykin alive. If you're Russia, you would want Dats matched-up against Sid or Getz, wouldn't you? Another matchup that Canada would love to see. Plus, Staal and St. Louis are useful beyond a 3rd line role. Edge: Canada.
You are not giving Radulov and Saprykin their due. Radulov was far and away the best player in Nashville before he defected, and with a proper center he can work miracles. Saprykin was always underrated in the NHL (then again, in Phoenix -- who isn't?). They'll play another season together in Salavat, and hopefully will strengthen their chemistry.

Quote:
It will more likely be a Morrow-Richards-Doan/Toews 4th line for Canada, all are pretty versatile and can play throughout the top 3 lines. This line will likely see some ice-time against the top 2 Russian lines in a shut-down / forechecking role, and I look forward to seeing this group play on the smaller ice surface. Easy edge to Canada here as well. Russia simply doesn't have Canada's depth.
Both Morrow and Doan can't finish for **** (Doan had two superb chances in the WHCF09 and squandered both). I disagree about Russia's depth. In my scenario, every Russian line can score goals (which is what Bykov wants). AK Bars line that I've listed played together for years. Canadians undoubtedly remember Tereschenko's goal in Quebec. He is good defensively and can finish too. If he forgets that terrible blunder against Spezza in WHCF09, he is a threat. Richards, Toews, Stall are probably better than the Russians, but not Morrow and Doan. Again, don't underestimate Morozov. He's got better release than any of them.

More about it later.

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08-12-2009, 07:46 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
True. My proof: stats and award nominations for the NHL08-09 seasons.



Any proofs?



Probably true. Although that's debatable. I don't know how Korneev and Atyushov will do against Nedermeyer, but they did pretty well against Green, Boumeister, and Weber. Oddly enough, both Russia's and Canada's defense corps won't change that much from the WHC. Russia will add Volchenkov and Gonchar, and Canada -- Pronger and Nedermeyer.



VERY questionable. If you go by Brodeur's pedigree, you have a point. But also consider his age and the fact that the only time Brodeur faced Nabokov was in Turin. They both underperformed in SC PO 09. Very questionable.

Also:

Russia's coaching staff > Canada's coaching staff. I just don't see how these four horses will effectively pull the same carriage for Canada. Bykov is progressing each year and created a terrific atmosphere in the team. Zakharkin is a theory wiz.

So I wouldn't be so hasty. In fact, Russia is clearly the team to beat this year. Will they win it, I, of course, don't know. That's what the ice is for.
Are you able to distinguish between an opinion and a fact?

It is not a fact that Russia's top four > Canada's top four. It is a fact that awardwise, Russia's top four was more successful last year. This, in my opinion, makes Russia's top four > Canada's top four. After this, it starts to swing in Canada's favour based on the fact that Canada has more MVP's, Art Ross winners, Rocket Richard winners, and playoff and WHC top performers. Some of these players will be on the third line along with other great 2 way players.

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08-12-2009, 10:28 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by PensFanSince1989 View Post
Nobody on Canada is on Datsyuk's, Ovechkin's, Kovalchuk's and Malkin's level?

Um, ever heard of Crosby? And I'd put Iginla and Getzlaf very much on Datsyuk's and Kovalchuk's level.
I'd have to disagree, Don't get me wrong, Iginla is great, but I would take Datsyuk over him and Getzlaf right now. In a couple of years I'll definitely take Getzlaf, but now its Datsyuk. So Iginla has taken a couple of steps back, like I said hes still a really really good player. And did you watch the WHC? I didnt watch all the game, but when I saw Russia play, Kovalchuk was just great. He is probably the best sniper behind OV. Even in the gold medal game, when kovy was on the ice there was scoring chances galore.

So Iginla/Getzlaf might be on the same level as Datsyuk/Kovalchuk, but right now I'd for sure be taking the Russian combo in this one.

I might be changing my mind next year, who knows how there regular seasons are going to go. Injuries might occur. But I'm definitely wanting to see a Canada/Russia game in this tourny.

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08-12-2009, 11:25 AM
  #91
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I'd have to disagree, Don't get me wrong, Iginla is great, but I would take Datsyuk over him and Getzlaf right now. In a couple of years I'll definitely take Getzlaf, but now its Datsyuk. So Iginla has taken a couple of steps back, like I said hes still a really really good player. And did you watch the WHC? I didnt watch all the game, but when I saw Russia play, Kovalchuk was just great. He is probably the best sniper behind OV. Even in the gold medal game, when kovy was on the ice there was scoring chances galore.

So Iginla/Getzlaf might be on the same level as Datsyuk/Kovalchuk, but right now I'd for sure be taking the Russian combo in this one.

I might be changing my mind next year, who knows how there regular seasons are going to go. Injuries might occur. But I'm definitely wanting to see a Canada/Russia game in this tourny.
This is where Canada's depth takes over. If it isn't Iginla or Getzlaf, it's Vinny or Heatley, or Staal or Nash, or Thornton. All these guys are or are very close to being Top 10 players and have shown they are capable of leading the scoring in the tournament.


Last edited by daver: 08-12-2009 at 11:32 AM.
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Old
08-12-2009, 12:50 PM
  #92
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Indeed Canada has the power to put up much more formidable list of players in depth wise, but the top6 plays what? Approximately 3,5/6 of the game? that leaves around 25minutes to split between the 3rd and 4th line. Not many superstars are able to fit to that role that well or play the energy guy role which is pretty crucial. Need gritty fast guys who will do it all and just skate a lot with energy, guys who don't get rusty while sitting on the bench. Having skill to go with that is great, but who are the guys from Canada and Russia who can play this role?-) At least this has been a good recipy for Finland as we are plenty with those kind of players, they are just lacking the skill that Canada or Russias similar guys to go with can have.

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08-12-2009, 01:38 PM
  #93
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I am a fan of fast, skilled, offensive hockey. I love to watch it. That being said, skilled teams like the one the Russians will bring to Vancouver will struggle to beat a defense and goaltending combination like the one Canada will bring. This tournament will be played on NHL ice, and the Canadian coaching staff has basically the best defensive coaches in the world. Every defender on the team is capable of playing an elite shutdown game. Most of these guys have played together before, and players like Niedermayer and Pronger bring an experience factor that is absolutely crucial.

The two teams are basically even at forward, but Canada's defense and goaltending are massive advantages. IMO the best player on either team will be Roberto Luongo. Provided the coaching staff is smart enough to play him, he will be on his home ice and will be playing his best hockey. If you watch the Canucks regularly you know that in this scenario he is capable of playing long stretches of hockey where he is basically unbeatable.

All things considered I believe Canada has to be the favourites on home ice. But anything can happen. I hope to see a Canada-Russia final, it should be epic.

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08-12-2009, 02:16 PM
  #94
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What I can do right now is compare the proposed lines on both teams, the way I see them. This is all pure speculation, based exclusively on the state of affairs in 2008-2009


Gagne-Crosby-Iginla vs. Ovechkin-Fedorov-Semin

All three Canadians are in their prime. Crosby sees ice well, good puck-carrier, and has a tremendous hockey sense, especially around the net. Doesn't have a good shot, but Iginla does. Ovechkin is the best sniper and the most tenacious player in the world, and he simply cannot be stopped, although his arsenal of moves is limited. Semin is a pure sniper, but a little soft. Fedorov is way old, but Bykov's system (centers pulled back) makes it easier for him, especially considering the short tournament and that he is to endure less stress in Russia next season. His experience and composure are invaluable. They played together for over a year, have a good feel for each other, and compliment each other well. This is why I give the edge to the Russian line.

Heatley-Getzlaf-Nash vs. Kovalchuk-Malkin-Frolov

Both lines from past WHChampionships. Canadian line is certainly menacing, and has been their most efficient. Every player compliments each other well. But how can you not like Chuck and Malkin together? Kovy is on top of his game: he is the most comfortable I've ever seen, after finally winning something. Add LA's go-to-guy, Frolov, and you have a true powerhouse. Edge: Russians.

Toews-Lecavalier-St Louis vs. Radulov-Datsyuk-Saprykin

Radulov and Saprykin won the WHC09 gold. Add Selke winner / Hart nominee Dats, who can shut down anybody in the world. But Canadian line is just as formidable. If Vinnie stays healthy, he can rock the ice. Toews is a great skater, and St. Louis is a terrific finisher. Edge: even.

Carter-Richards-Staal vs. Zaripov-Tereschenko-Morozov

Both lines are very good: Carter & Richards are hitting their prime. ZM are softer, but they've been together for years and understand each other very well. Still, I give the edge to Canadians.

Neidermeyer-Boyle vs. Gonchar-Volchenkov. You saw the Pens with and without Gonchar. Russians, easily.
Weber-Bouwmesteer vs. Markov-Tyutin. Russians again. Markov is the most complete D-man in the league. Bouw sucks
Keith-Regher vs. Proshkin-Nikulin. Canadians.

Burns, Doan vs. Zubov, Kovalev. Russians.

Brodeur, Luongo, Ward vs. Nabokov, Varlamov, Bryzgalov. I give a slight edge to the Canadians, although every time Brodeur and Ward faced Russia, they lost. Still...

Babcock, Ruff, Lemers, Hitchock vs. Bykov, Zakharkin. Everybody knows where I stand here. Edge: Russia..

Special teams:
Powerplays are about even, penalty kills I give to Canada. Russia has a deficit of true defensive defensemen, although Volchenkov, Tyutin, and Markov are certainly quite capable of playing that role.

Overall:
On paper, Russia is a clear favorite. In reality, this means zilch. Let's hope they meet in the finals.
Clear favourite???

Russia's top 2 lines can compare with Canada's but that's where it ends at forward. Canada's defence and goaltending are easily better.

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08-12-2009, 03:05 PM
  #95
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Clear favourite???

Russia's top 2 lines can compare with Canada's but that's where it ends at forward. Canada's defence and goaltending are easily better.
It's the same guy that claims that Canada doesn't have 1 forward that matches up to Ovechkin, Malkin, Datsyuk or Kovalchuk...

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08-12-2009, 03:30 PM
  #96
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This is where Canada's depth takes over. If it isn't Iginla or Getzlaf, it's Vinny or Heatley, or Staal or Nash, or Thornton. All these guys are or are very close to being Top 10 players and have shown they are capable of leading the scoring in the tournament.
Yes, good point. But for Lecavalier he hasn't dominated as much recently. When he went to the cup he was amazing. And the year he won the Richard he dominated. Other then that he has not been a definite top 10 in the league.

Everyone bashing on Heatley's Ottawa situation, but at the WHC and at these Olympics I know for a fact hes going to rack up the goals. Staal dominated these playoffs, he was so good. Nash is always good.

That leaves Thornton, He is good, no doubt about it. But these Olympics if hes someone that will play these games like its the playoffs, theirs no way I'd want him on this team.

But there should be no argument that Canada has the most depth. But will they all come together at these Olympics?

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08-12-2009, 03:32 PM
  #97
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I am a fan of fast, skilled, offensive hockey. I love to watch it. That being said, skilled teams like the one the Russians will bring to Vancouver will struggle to beat a defense and goaltending combination like the one Canada will bring. This tournament will be played on NHL ice, and the Canadian coaching staff has basically the best defensive coaches in the world. Every defender on the team is capable of playing an elite shutdown game. Most of these guys have played together before, and players like Niedermayer and Pronger bring an experience factor that is absolutely crucial.

The two teams are basically even at forward, but Canada's defense and goaltending are massive advantages. IMO the best player on either team will be Roberto Luongo. Provided the coaching staff is smart enough to play him, he will be on his home ice and will be playing his best hockey. If you watch the Canucks regularly you know that in this scenario he is capable of playing long stretches of hockey where he is basically unbeatable.

All things considered I believe Canada has to be the favourites on home ice. But anything can happen. I hope to see a Canada-Russia final, it should be epic.
They would be stupid not to through in Luongo. I don't care if Brodeur won 3 cups, has an Olympic gold medal. Luongo would be the wise choice to put in between the pipes.

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08-12-2009, 04:32 PM
  #98
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Yes, good point. But for Lecavalier he hasn't dominated as much recently. When he went to the cup he was amazing. And the year he won the Richard he dominated. Other then that he has not been a definite top 10 in the league.

Everyone bashing on Heatley's Ottawa situation, but at the WHC and at these Olympics I know for a fact hes going to rack up the goals. Staal dominated these playoffs, he was so good. Nash is always good.

That leaves Thornton, He is good, no doubt about it. But these Olympics if hes someone that will play these games like its the playoffs, theirs no way I'd want him on this team.

But there should be no argument that Canada has the most depth. But will they all come together at these Olympics?

Lecavelier also had an extremely good 2007-2008 season up until he injured his shoulder. Last year, he was still recovering from surgery for much of it and was hampered by coaching, imo.

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08-12-2009, 05:15 PM
  #99
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This is where Canada's depth takes over. If it isn't Iginla or Getzlaf, it's Vinny or Heatley, or Staal or Nash, or Thornton. All these guys are or are very close to being Top 10 players and have shown they are capable of leading the scoring in the tournament.
You can say exactly the same thing about Russia. If it's not Kovy or Malkin or Ovie, than it's Semin (2 beautiful goals in WHC Finals 09) or Morozov or Radulov or whoever else. With Kovalev in the lineup (I still don't think it's gonna happen, but...), they will have a superstar on every line. In fact, there is not a person on those 4 lines (with the possible exception of Zinoviev, who loves to squander chances) who cannot put the puck in the net consistently.

Thornton... when was he ever a game-breaker? When did he even give any performance worthy of his deity-like status? Heatley, yes. Nash, yes (although he is also likely to be remembered for giving Russia a PP in OT in 09). Vinny and Staal? Possibly. But I don't see Russia's depth as inferior to that of Canada. You can't judge Morozov and Tereschenko based on their lack of Art Ross awards. They don't play in the NHL.

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08-12-2009, 09:19 PM
  #100
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You can say exactly the same thing about Russia. If it's not Kovy or Malkin or Ovie, than it's Semin (2 beautiful goals in WHC Finals 09) or Morozov or Radulov or whoever else. With Kovalev in the lineup (I still don't think it's gonna happen, but...), they will have a superstar on every line. In fact, there is not a person on those 4 lines (with the possible exception of Zinoviev, who loves to squander chances) who cannot put the puck in the net consistently.

Thornton... when was he ever a game-breaker? When did he even give any performance worthy of his deity-like status? Heatley, yes. Nash, yes (although he is also likely to be remembered for giving Russia a PP in OT in 09). Vinny and Staal? Possibly. But I don't see Russia's depth as inferior to that of Canada. You can't judge Morozov and Tereschenko based on their lack of Art Ross awards. They don't play in the NHL.
Kovalev is not a superstar any more and Morozov and Radulov never were close to superstars. Canada has at least 25 playes that are better than any of those guys.

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