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Henriks Stats in a Tortorella system

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Old
08-11-2009, 07:33 AM
  #1
I Am Chariot
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Henriks Stats in a Tortorella system

Although I feel the only stat that really matters is the W, I have found pleasure in Henkes skills translating into Vezina like stats.

What is the feeling on what might happen under Torts much more aggressive offense? Hes likely to see more quality shots.

Will Henrik be able to keep those elite stats or must he take a hit for the better good?

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08-11-2009, 07:44 AM
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According to behindthenet.ca advanced statistics, Lundqvist has been facing the highest quality shots in the league for the past two seasons. I started a thread specifically about this a couple of months back.

The notion that the Rangers D has somehow bolstered Lundqvist's stats is a myth. Our D has never been anything above average. The amount of odd-man rushes, uncontested screens in front of the net and overall shoddy defensive play was consistent throughout all of last season.

This has been one of the really sad/strange things to me about the Rangers last season. Purportedly, we played a highly "defensive" system yet my eyes, and Gabe Desjardins advanced stats research, both concluded that our defense was terrible.

I really don't think Lundqvist is going to suffer that much statistically in 5v5 play. The one dangerous area is the Penalty Kill because I feel that our PK was legitimately strong last season and did actually contribute to Lundqvist's success in that area. Whether that remains the same without Betts and Sjostrom is questionable.

I know that everyone loves to overrate the impact a coach's "sytem" has on a team but the truth is that this team's defense under Renny was average-atrocious and I can't see it getting significantly worse because of Torts.

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08-11-2009, 07:55 AM
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eh, it's not that the defense is terrible, it's that the shots they do allow are usually high quality shots.

They blocked a ton of the low quality, outside shots that usually boost a goalies stats. They also blocked a lot of good quality shots as well, but it's just that when the other team did get a chance, it usually ended up being a really good chance

So yeah, I wouldn't say the defense was horrible, but it didn't really inflate Lundqvist's stats like some people think.

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08-11-2009, 08:05 AM
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mullichicken25
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contrary to the opinions above me, I do feel that his stats will take a dip

i read that behindthenet.ca site and didn't totally buy it...it was certainlly a clever idea and had good intentions but i feel there are a lot of variables that go into generating something like that and its imposible to consider all of them

Henrik is going to be left out dry some more this season and that will add a few more goals, but more importantly, its entirely possible that he will have two rookie deffensemen infront of him (with some people even suggesting he might have 3!)

no matter how you slice it, that will result in more goals against...mara and morris/kalinin certainlly weren't superstars but they weren't rookies either.

I feel like a lot of people here (myself included unfortunately) were spoiled by Staal and completely under-estimate the learning curve for rookie defensemen

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08-11-2009, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mullichicken25 View Post
contrary to the opinions above me, I do feel that his stats will take a dip

i read that behindthenet.ca site and didn't totally buy it...it was certainlly a clever idea and had good intentions but i feel there are a lot of variables that go into generating something like that and its imposible to consider all of them

Henrik is going to be left out dry some more this season and that will add a few more goals, but more importantly, its entirely possible that he will have two rookie deffensemen infront of him (with some people even suggesting he might have 3!)

no matter how you slice it, that will result in more goals against...mara and morris/kalinin certainlly weren't superstars but they weren't rookies either.

I feel like a lot of people here (myself included unfortunately) were spoiled by Staal and completely under-estimate the learning curve for rookie defensemen
I totally agree. Aside from rookie defensemen and the team not playing as responsibly in their own zone, they've also lost the top two penalty killers on the team and two of the best in the league, and they no longer have a fourth line who can skate.

Tortorella's system will hopefully translate into more wins (or at least the same amount of wins with watchable hockey), but I also fear Henrik's stats, not to mention his days on the all-star team and his Vezina trophy nominations, will take a hit.

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08-11-2009, 08:15 AM
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I'm not sure that his stats won't take a hit, I'm just saying I don't think the other defense really helped them as much as people may think

As for not having a fourth line that can skate, I doubt we'll see a whole lot of the fourth line under Tortorella

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08-11-2009, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
I'm not sure that his stats won't take a hit, I'm just saying I don't think the other defense really helped them as much as people may think

As for not having a fourth line that can skate, I doubt we'll see a whole lot of the fourth line under Tortorella
That's my point as well.

Something can certainly be said for a loss of personnel. The point about 3 rookie D is true.

I feel though that Chariot was asking more about opinions concerning the system and the potential impact Torts will have on Henrik's stats. I just don't buy the notion that Renney in any way helped Lundqvist's statistics, therefore I don't believe that Torts will in any way hurt Lundy's stats.

If Lundqvist's stats take a dive, it will be because the team just isn't as good, not because Torts and his system have a uniformly negative effect on goaltending.

To me, this is sort of like the opposite side of the Gaborik debate. I think it's ridiculous when people say, "Well, Gaborik put up these numbers under Lemaire, just imagine what he can do under Torts!"

I just believe that throughout the course of a career and even throughout the course of an individual season, players more or less play up to their abilities regardless of extenuating circumstances. An 80 pt. scorer will put up around 80 pts. no matter who his coach is. The same goes for goaltending. I just can't see a goalie of Lundqvist's caliber taking a huge hit because he no longer has Tom Renney behind the bench with him. And I honestly do not mean that as a shot at Renney.


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08-11-2009, 08:29 AM
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henrik had great stats in the 05-06 season, when renney played a pretty offensive style, so i don't worry that much.

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08-11-2009, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jniklast View Post
henrik had great stats in the 05-06 season, when renney played a pretty offensive style, so i don't worry that much.
My memory says that Jagr Nylander Straka OWNED the puck that season. 54 goals for Jags kept teams at bay....tentative and worried to take too much risk.

See thats what this team really has been missing. The best defense is at least in part a threat on the offense.

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08-11-2009, 11:58 AM
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and I think that's part of Tortorella's plan...part of the puck pursuit game is to keep the other team on their heels, unable to mount an attack because you're forcing bad passes and turnovers.

Also helps if you can be a good puck control team as well

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08-11-2009, 12:00 PM
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jniklast
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Originally Posted by Chariot View Post
My memory says that Jagr Nylander Straka OWNED the puck that season. 54 goals for Jags kept teams at bay....tentative and worried to take too much risk.

See thats what this team really has been missing. The best defense is at least in part a threat on the offense.
that's true, and that's why i don't worry that much.
the defensive system of renney worked only to limit the overall number of chances for other teams, but i don't think it limited the good scroring chances.
i even expect henrik's save percentage to rise, while his GAA might get a bit worse.

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08-11-2009, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by NickyZ View Post
To me, this is sort of like the opposite side of the Gaborik debate. I think it's ridiculous when people say, "Well, Gaborik put up these numbers under Lemaire, just imagine what he can do under Torts!"

I just believe that throughout the course of a career and even throughout the course of an individual season, players more or less play up to their abilities regardless of extenuating circumstances. An 80 pt. scorer will put up around 80 pts. no matter who his coach is. The same goes for goaltending. I just can't see a goalie of Lundqvist's caliber taking a huge hit because he no longer has Tom Renney behind the bench with him. And I honestly do not mean that as a shot at Renney.
For Gaborik, what you say is probably true. It's hard to suggest that his numbers will be much different depending on the system he's in. He probably had a lot more freedom in Lemaire's system than most players get.

But I do think system has an effect. Look at Callahan last year. 9 of his 22 goals came in the final 21 games after Torts took over. I think Callahan, the way he plays, is made for Tort's heavy forechecking system.

So while Gaborik will be elite in any system, some players will have more or less success depending on the system and how their game fits in that system.

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08-11-2009, 02:09 PM
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Hank got hung out to dry a ton last year even with Renney. He was fine.

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08-11-2009, 02:15 PM
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Henrik has said in interviews that he plays better when he has more work. I think he will be fine in this system. If the defense is aggressive in pursuit of the puck and the forwards have a strong back check, Lundqvist will probably have more help than he did in Renney's system.

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08-11-2009, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Jersey Girl View Post
I totally agree. Aside from rookie defensemen and the team not playing as responsibly in their own zone, they've also lost the top two penalty killers on the team and two of the best in the league, and they no longer have a fourth line who can skate.

Tortorella's system will hopefully translate into more wins (or at least the same amount of wins with watchable hockey), but I also fear Henrik's stats, not to mention his days on the all-star team and his Vezina trophy nominations, will take a hit.
As long as he is stealing games here and there and a rock come playoff time I am sure we all wont care if the famed "Vezina nominations" goes bye bye. All Star game? Who cares as well. I am sure Torts could care less

One thing to keep an eye on, Torts is tough on his goalies. It's no secret when things go sour on Hank he gets weird on his team. Some examples are pulling himself out of games and flu like symptoms when he is struggling will not fly with Torts and torts will test Hank. If Hank is as tough as we all think mentally he may have his best season ever

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08-11-2009, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
For Gaborik, what you say is probably true. It's hard to suggest that his numbers will be much different depending on the system he's in. He probably had a lot more freedom in Lemaire's system than most players get.

But I do think system has an effect. Look at Callahan last year. 9 of his 22 goals came in the final 21 games after Torts took over. I think Callahan, the way he plays, is made for Tort's heavy forechecking system.

So while Gaborik will be elite in any system, some players will have more or less success depending on the system and how their game fits in that system.
The thing is though, was Callahan's improvement really a result of "X's and O's" changes made by Torts or was it just the fact that Torts:
A: Gave Cally more minutes and
B: Played Cally with better linemates?

I'm not saying coaches and their systems don't make a difference, I just think that their impact is a little overrated.

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08-11-2009, 03:50 PM
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Henrik was held out to dry all the time in the old system....it will be no different this time around but hopefully with a more offensive system, the puck will be at the other side of the rink more often..

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08-11-2009, 04:21 PM
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Henrik was held out to dry all the time in the old system....it will be no different this time around but hopefully with a more offensive system, the puck will be at the other side of the rink more often..
I think we'll see a mixture of this, compounded with the fact that hell see some more odd man rushes against than in the old system.

It remains to be seen how effective the current and final rosters will be as far as possessing the puck and finishing plays on offense, so that could be a large factor in what Henrik will see.

Henriks had a huge workload the past few seasons, with Shots Against ranking 15th in the league last season, 3rd in 07/08 and 6th in 06/07.

Even though the Rangers were 7th, 3rd and 6th in shots FOR during those years respectively, it still cant tell you what to expect this year. Torts likes to hold the puck, and if he has it the way he wants it , Henrik should see less shots than in previous years. Whether those shots will be from a better area of the ice is the question.

Personally i think it will even out in the end and it wont be much of a difference. A good goalie is a good goalie and finds a way to stop the puck, no matter what situation. Henrik is an above average goaltender and hitting his prime - thats more of gauge to me of what we might expect this upcoming season.

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08-11-2009, 04:25 PM
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Frankly, I don't give a rat's *** what his stats look like, outside of the wins column. If he can put up 35-40+ wins per season, and help us hit that magic number 16 in the playoffs, I'd be happy, even if he never played in another All Star Game, or if he never won the Vezina.

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08-11-2009, 06:08 PM
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Henke's stats have been and will remain kingly. He's a great keeper who makes phenomenal saves and that's not going to change. One thing that will change though, is I expect Torts to pull his goalie on nights when he's getting shelled rather then letting him hang out to dry and eventually pull himself, that doesn't happen with Torts around.

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