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Old
08-09-2009, 10:54 PM
  #26
Jame
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
Bernier 122 points in 258 games = .48 PPG
Stafford 110 points in 184 games = .59 PPG

The difference in points between the two players is about .11, or 9 points a year. That is hardly "outproducing in a major way...."

Not saying I think they are equal in trade value (I don't) just calling you on a bit of hyperbole there.
Stafford is coming off a 20 goal-45 pt season. When Bernier was moved for 2 picks he was coming off a 31 pt season. And Bernier followed that up with another 32 pt season.

Stafford is producing nearly 10 pts more a year and has LESS games played. He's gotten better every year, while Bernier has NOT.

Bernier returned draft picks because he was going to be offersheeted and the Sabres had no intention of matching. That is not the case with Stafford, therefore the comparison of deals is worthless.

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08-09-2009, 11:42 PM
  #27
Darth Milbury
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Stafford is coming off a 20 goal-45 pt season. When Bernier was moved for 2 picks he was coming off a 31 pt season. And Bernier followed that up with another 32 pt season.

Stafford is producing nearly 10 pts more a year and has LESS games played. He's gotten better every year, while Bernier has NOT.

Bernier returned draft picks because he was going to be offersheeted and the Sabres had no intention of matching. That is not the case with Stafford, therefore the comparison of deals is worthless.

It isn't a worthwhile comparison for trade value purposes, true. But, that doesn't make your prior post any less of a hyperbole. The huge difference in production you were claiming simply isn't there.

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08-10-2009, 08:45 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
It isn't a worthwhile comparison for trade value purposes, true. But, that doesn't make your prior post any less of a hyperbole. The huge difference in production you were claiming simply isn't there.
i think 45 pts in your 3rd season (2nd full) is a huge difference from having barely cracked 30 pts in both your 3rd and 4th seasons.

I think the difference in those two scenarios is quantifiable and large.

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08-10-2009, 10:24 AM
  #29
Darth Milbury
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
i think 45 pts in your 3rd season (2nd full) is a huge difference from having barely cracked 30 pts in both your 3rd and 4th seasons.

I think the difference in those two scenarios is quantifiable and large.

I notice how you leave out the rookie seasons, which is not suprising given that Bernier's near 30 goal pace that year badly outstripped anything that Stafford has done to date.

No offense, Jamie. But, we've had these arguments before. You once assured me that Hecht scoring something like .2 ppg more than other players of his ilk showed he was in an entirely different class. You made similar statistical arguments for guys like Kalinin and Afinogenov. Heck, I remember you trying to twist the evidence around to argue that Tallinder is in JayBo's class. By now, I would have thought you would have learned to not go so far beyond the data.

Stafford has not had a "large" production difference from Bernier. The PPG difference is a grand total of .11 per game. That's all.

Yes, his development has been more steady and his improvement last year was quite notable. He is certainly the more valuable player right now so the comparison between the players was not a good one. I would think Stafford's trade value is substantially higher than Bernier's. But, the spin you are putting on the numbers is typical of your logic, and it is not convincing at all.

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Old
08-10-2009, 10:45 AM
  #30
Jame
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
I notice how you leave out the rookie seasons, which is not suprising given that Bernier's near 30 goal pace that year badly outstripped anything that Stafford has done to date.
Stafford was on pace for 26 goals, and 54 pts in 41 games his rookie year. And he ended that season with a 21 pts in 21 games stretch, so we can include rookie years in the conversation.

that's basically the same rookie year Bernier had.

Quote:
No offense, Jamie. But, we've had these arguments before. You once assured me that Hecht scoring something like .2 ppg more than other players of his ilk showed he was in an entirely different class. You made similar statistical arguments for guys like Kalinin and Afinogenov. Heck, I remember you trying to twist the evidence around to argue that Tallinder is in JayBo's class. By now, I would have thought you would have learned to not go so far beyond the data.
unfair. I was right and wrong about Hecht, I was right about him at the time (pre lockout season) and after the lockout (2 seasons)
204 gms/150 pts/+46

Kalinin, blech... not even gonna touch that one. He was an epic failure and failed reaching any reasonable benchmark of expectation

Max, all the arguments I ever made we defending the myth that he was soft. Which he NEVER was. and most sabres fans would defend the same point

Tallinder, wow... talk about misrepresenting me. I compared Tallinder's SKATING to Jayboy.

Anyways... i think its lame that you think arguments from 5 years ago (Hecht) are relevant to this conversation.

Quote:
Stafford has not had a "large" production difference from Bernier. The PPG difference is a grand total of .11 per game. That's all.
You aren't taking the context of those PPG numbers into consideration. Staffords development is going very well. Bernier's has been going backwards since his breakout rookie, while Stafford has progressed.


Quote:
Yes, his development has been more steady and his improvement last year was quite notable. He is certainly the more valuable player right now so the comparison between the players was not a good one. I would think Stafford's trade value is substantially higher than Bernier's. But, the spin you are putting on the numbers is typical of your logic, and it is not convincing at all.
You agree with me, just not the logic that Stafford has outproduced Bernier. maybe if i said Stafford has "out-developed" Bernier, leading to "better" production and a better trajectory for long term production....

maybe my semantics did not read well in my one line post " Stafford has outproduced Bernier in a big way". But i was thinking of the entire picture, not just career pts. career pts + development.

bottom line: Stafford has a lot more trade value then Bernier did last offseason

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Old
08-10-2009, 11:23 AM
  #31
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I think every Sabres fan can agree that Stafford should command a substantially higher trade value than what Bernier got in return.

Therefor the initial offer is definately not enough.

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