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Should there be a Women's NHL/KHL?

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Old
12-25-2013, 02:05 AM
  #1
robwangjing
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Should there be a Women's NHL/KHL?

I am not sure if I should have written 'should' or 'could' in the title, but I guess both questions would apply to my thoughts.

I will also admit here right away that I am not aware of if there today are any professional hockey leagues for women where they can live off of their hockey salary solely. And if there is one today I would suppose it's located in Canada.

So, what I have been thinking of is the idea of a big professional league for women, sort of like the women's NHL/KHL. Where all the best women in the world dream of playing in. A league where all the players will get paid enough money to also have an economic reason to follow their hockey dream. I am not talking about several millions in salary for every player, it would never work of course. But perhaps a minimum/bottom salary of €15 000 or €20 000 per year, just as an example.

Since women's sports all over the world has very few attendants in general, and therefore less/worse sponsors and thus less budget, the league would really need to dependent on a big major sponsor, like Gazprom in the KHL. And the marketing would have to be very clever to attract both female and male attendants, both new and old ones.

So here comes a few questions.

1. Are there already a Women's NHL/KHL?
2. Should there be a Women's NHL/KHL?
3. Could there be a Women's NHL/KHL?
4. If it could work, what would the people behind this league have to do to ensure it to at least go around or even be profitable?
5. If it couldn't, could there be any type of semi-professional league instead, similar to lower men's leagues in Europe?
6. And finally, where do you think it should/could be located?

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12-25-2013, 03:48 AM
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There will be 0 interest.

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12-25-2013, 11:40 AM
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no .

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Old
12-25-2013, 12:33 PM
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Sokil
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Women suck at hockey.* No.


* And I say this with all objectivity, Team Canada practices against 15 year olds and loses. A league of women would be lower than pee-wee level hockey.

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12-25-2013, 12:41 PM
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If people cared even slightly there would already be one.

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12-25-2013, 02:37 PM
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Women's hockey is like watching paint dry in slow motion

The biggest problem with it is there's no checking, I think they should be allowed to check at the higher levels, plenty of girls play checking hockey with boys in mixed leagues when they are young

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12-25-2013, 09:32 PM
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robwangjing
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So the reason why women should not have a professional league is that they don't play as good as men?

Zero interest, as in low attendants? Even in Canadian women's hockey?

I see no real discussion here, and no real answers to any of the questions that I put out. Just "no's".

The Women's NBA in USA has an average attendance of 8 000 per game, how is this possible and how could it be possible to get higher attendance for women's hockey? I would rather see a discussion about solutions rather than statements about how much women suck compared to men.

Women's sports in China usually have pretty high attendants, so why just not put the hockey league here? The women's hockey would probably be better than the Chinese men, for those who feel it's important to compare men and women. When the Women's WC was played in China, and all the best female players in the world was represented, it has pretty good attendance numbers. This for a sport that is non existent for men, and triple non existent for women in China.

Women's football for example in China and Japan would have an average attendance of around 8 000 people. It might not sound as much, but men's football in China and Japan has around 18 000 in attendance, so the difference is not that big.

And even if there was just 500 in average attendance in this league, it would be possible to get the money from elsewhere. But do you have any suggestions?

And what about changing the Women's hockey, making them play on smaller ice's, allowing checking, smaller net or whatever. I have heard some of these arguments for football, to make women play with a smaller ball because their leg muscles are not as strong as men and it would make it easier for them to play the ball.

Sport for men and women doesn't have to have 100% the same rules, because we should all remember that every sport we have were created for men by men.

Shouldn't it be possible to create a league like this in Canada with like 10 teams and broadcast it in some kind of sports channel.

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12-25-2013, 10:59 PM
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Well to answer your last question, there are already two such leagues in existence in Canada, the Canadian Women's Hockey League (CWHL) and the Western Women's Hockey League (WWHL).

The CWHL has five (5) teams being Boston, Brampton, Calgary, Montreal and Toronto, while the WWHL only has two (2) teams, Winnipeg and a team from Minnesota which plays its games in various cities across the state.

A few years ago, the China women's national team played several exhibition games against some of these teams and a few Chinese players were loaned out to them for their development.

But these leagues are not well organized and a number of teams have ceased to exist, probably due to financial difficulties. Among the efforts that have been deployed to help the teams is that the Toronto Maple Leafs from the NHL are helping to fund some expenses for the Toronto team in the CWHL ($30,000 per season) and same goes for the Calgary Flames who are doing the same ($20,000 per season).

It's estimated each team has an annual budget of about $200,000, which is not enough to pay the players but it covers traveling expenses, meals, and so on.

This is where a lot of the women who play international hockey are playing, while some of them are in the NCAA, and there are occasionally exhibition games between them.

The outlook is bleak if we look at attendance numbers, which are about an average of 250 fans per game but these numbers have been growing as of late. The playoff/cup games have averaged over 1,000 fans last season.

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12-25-2013, 11:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robwangjing View Post
So the reason why women should not have a professional league is that they don't play as good as men?

Zero interest, as in low attendants? Even in Canadian women's hockey?

I see no real discussion here, and no real answers to any of the questions that I put out. Just "no's".
All I'm hearing from you is being dismissive of extremely valid points: a bad product that nobody wants to watch can't be funded as profession.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robwangjing View Post

Women's sports in China usually have pretty high attendants, so why just not put the hockey league here?
Go right ahead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robwangjing View Post
Shouldn't it be possible to create a league like this in Canada with like 10 teams and broadcast it in some kind of sports channel.
Who would broadcast something nobody wants to watch? NCAA/CHL I'm sure gets low enough numbers and that's why it's usually filler, but a regular season of no-contact, slow, unskilled hockey?

To answer about the WNBA, maybe it's because basketball is bigger than hockey in the USA, and because the level of women is at least passable, versus hockey where the talent pool is so small.

Also, in order to get attendance, you're probably going to want to put teams in cities that don't already have NHL/AHL/ECHL teams. So you have 10 teams out in the boonies, how can you get a national tv contract? You can't. This would have to be very localized and there are already previously established semi-pro leagues that you can look up to see how big they got, or what their numbers were that lead to their failings.

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12-26-2013, 01:58 AM
  #10
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I like the both of your input in this thread, much more informative and better answers than all of the previous ones.

I do agree with both of you, and want to put it out now that I was of course not all serious about putting the women's league here in China. In case anyone else would comment on that.

Are there any women's hockey today broadcasted on TV? CWHL or any other league, on national or local TV? If no, has it ever been done? And when the Canadian women's national team play hockey, does it get a lot of viewers and spectators? I know it's not equal to compare national team with a league team, but it's interesting to know.

If women's hockey is ever to become something bigger and serious, for both men and women it must start somewhere. If it's not even broadcasted on TV or reported on much in the newspapers or no one get's a salary to live on, how can it even grow? It's just a waste of time to play it. Like it is for Chinese men to play hockey.

It could start small, broadcast 10 games on TV the first season or something.

And for the league to bring in money, it doesn't have to be from ticket revenues and sold merchandise. There are many other smart ways to fund it.

And one major point is to actually attract women to watch this sport, support other women. Not just in hockey but in many other sports.

In Asia this problem seems to be much much smaller than in the west. I don't understand why, but comments like "it sucks compared to men" gives me an idea that if the product is worse it's not worth bothering.

And I guess you compare men and women more than we do here, for some reason.

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12-26-2013, 01:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robwangjing View Post
So the reason why women should not have a professional league is that they don't play as good as men?

Zero interest, as in low attendants? Even in Canadian women's hockey?

I see no real discussion here, and no real answers to any of the questions that I put out. Just "no's".

The Women's NBA in USA has an average attendance of 8 000 per game, how is this possible and how could it be possible to get higher attendance for women's hockey? I would rather see a discussion about solutions rather than statements about how much women suck compared to men.

Women's sports in China usually have pretty high attendants, so why just not put the hockey league here? The women's hockey would probably be better than the Chinese men, for those who feel it's important to compare men and women. When the Women's WC was played in China, and all the best female players in the world was represented, it has pretty good attendance numbers. This for a sport that is non existent for men, and triple non existent for women in China.

Women's football for example in China and Japan would have an average attendance of around 8 000 people. It might not sound as much, but men's football in China and Japan has around 18 000 in attendance, so the difference is not that big.

And even if there was just 500 in average attendance in this league, it would be possible to get the money from elsewhere. But do you have any suggestions?

And what about changing the Women's hockey, making them play on smaller ice's, allowing checking, smaller net or whatever. I have heard some of these arguments for football, to make women play with a smaller ball because their leg muscles are not as strong as men and it would make it easier for them to play the ball.

Sport for men and women doesn't have to have 100% the same rules, because we should all remember that every sport we have were created for men by men.

Shouldn't it be possible to create a league like this in Canada with like 10 teams and broadcast it in some kind of sports channel.
You want an answer? Economics. If the market was there for it, it would exist.

The solution? Economics. If the market is there for it, it will exist.

It's a silly thread/question because the answer is patently obvious.

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Old
12-26-2013, 04:47 AM
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No, there simply would be 0 interest.

But in the other hand if some woman would be good enough i had no problem for her to play in NHL or other men's leagues, there have already been few who have played in lower tier professional men's leagues but i seriously doubt that any of them could ever make the NHL, expect for maybe a goalie.

In the other hand if any woman would ever make the roster of any NHL team, that would be pretty good press for NHL.

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Old
12-26-2013, 07:53 AM
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No chance. Women's hockey is at or lower than the level of minor Bantam AAA. They routinely lose to 15/16 year old boys in their prep games before tournaments. If Canada is that bad and are #1/2 in the world, imagine how bad the rest of the world is?

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12-26-2013, 09:03 AM
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Didn't Team Canada go like 10-11 against boys?

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12-26-2013, 09:36 AM
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How good the women are in hockey isn't that important and doesn't serve any purpose in this debate. It's obvious that men in general are much stronger than women and even boys would defeat adult women in most sports, including hockey. That doesn't change the fact there are professional basketball leagues such as the WNBA as well as football (soccer), handball, volleyball, etc. leagues for women in Europe.

Personally I think there could be some kind of league in Canada because that country breathes hockey, but stretching it to the USA or thinking about establishing a league in Europe is foolish and would not gather nearly enough interest. But like I said, a Canada-based league is probably possible.

One big problem in Canada is the size of the country and a small population which means that it costs a lot to travel as the large cities are spread apart by hundreds or thousands of kilometers. That's also the reason why there is no football (soccer) league in Canada.

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12-26-2013, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boris4c View Post
How good the women are in hockey isn't that important and doesn't serve any purpose in this debate. It's obvious that men in general are much stronger than women and even boys would defeat adult women in most sports, including hockey.
There's no reason boys in highschool who have never even really done extensive training should be stronger and faster than women who have been training (at an apparent olympic level?) for years.

and I do think the comparison is important here. While in something like tennis, the disparity between men and women is very apparent (no woman could compete in mens tennis), but the women's product doesn't suffer from it, they can still put on entertaining matches at a quality, professional level.

Women in hockey? Slow and low talent. Imagine watching women's tennis if their talent pool was that of local amateurs...nobody would want to watch that.

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12-27-2013, 01:11 AM
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There is - CWHL.

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12-27-2013, 03:16 AM
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Still, again the main focus in this thread is on how much better men are and that the men's hockey is more entertaining. We all know this, yes?

So I agree with boris4c, the focus is on the wrong matter here, especially when we talk about ice hockey which is a very physical and strong sport. This is basically a sport for men, like rugby.

But, some of you said economics will be a problem, even in Canada, and yes it could be absolutely. And I think this is the major part where focus should be, economics and marketing. How could it be possible to create a league that would be considered the Women's NHL/KHL or WNBA.

The league could be heavily sponsored/advertised, the whole jerseys of the women could be covered with hundereds of logos and then with a small team logo and then a number on the back of the jersey. So even if just 500 people visits the games, it wouldn't matter that much.

There are many ways to bring in money. And I will say it again, we are not discussing millions in salary here, we are discussing a reasonable salary. Perhaps a salary in the range of tier two or three in Europe. I am not too sure what the salaries are in lower leagues. But to even think of NHL or KHL salaries are just out of proportions.

But I still have a few questions.

1. Are the games from Canada's top womens league broadcasted on TV?
2. If so, how many viewers does it have?
3. How many of the world's top women players play in that Canadian league today? Mainly Canadians or also all top players from Sweden, USA, Finland, Russia? Or only a minority of the rest(foreigners)?
4. How many viewers/spectators does team Canada(women) have when they play in WC/OG, on TV and live in arena?

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12-27-2013, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robwangjing View Post
But I still have a few questions.

1. Are the games from Canada's top womens league broadcasted on TV?
2. If so, how many viewers does it have?
3. How many of the world's top women players play in that Canadian league today? Mainly Canadians or also all top players from Sweden, USA, Finland, Russia? Or only a minority of the rest(foreigners)?
4. How many viewers/spectators does team Canada(women) have when they play in WC/OG, on TV and live in arena?
1. No, but the 2012 Clarkson Cup, which is the final game of the season between the two best teams, was televised on TSN2.

2. I have no idea how many viewers it had, but it was on TSN2 which is not available to most people and it was in the morning.

3. The vast majority of the world's best players play in that league. If you take a look at Canada's roster at the 2013 IIHF Women's World Championship, 17 of the 23 players were in the CWHL and also 8/23 from the USA but the majority of them are in the NCAA which is not a professional league.

4. Ottawa hosted the 2013 IIHF Women's World Championship and the attendance numbers were solid. I went to a couple of games myself. The average attendance was 12,024 for Canada games, with the highest single attendance being 18,014. THe tournament as a whole averaged 4,626 spectators. In general the women's national team in Canada gets decent media coverage and they are quite popular but this is limited to Canada.

Basically, the NHL/KHL for women which you are talking about already exists in the form of the CWHL and it's already established where it should be: in Canada. Now it's just a matter of making the league more popular which is already happening at the moment as attendance numbers are growing, the league is getting a bit of TV coverage and NHL teams have started funding some teams.

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12-27-2013, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robwangjing View Post

The league could be heavily sponsored/advertised, the whole jerseys of the women could be covered with hundereds of logos and then with a small team logo and then a number on the back of the jersey. So even if just 500 people visits the games, it wouldn't matter that much.
Never going to happen, North American fans have a large aversion to ads like this.

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12-27-2013, 11:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boris4c View Post
How good the women are in hockey isn't that important and doesn't serve any purpose in this debate. It's obvious that men in general are much stronger than women and even boys would defeat adult women in most sports, including hockey. That doesn't change the fact there are professional basketball leagues such as the WNBA as well as football (soccer), handball, volleyball, etc. leagues for women in Europe.

Personally I think there could be some kind of league in Canada because that country breathes hockey, but stretching it to the USA or thinking about establishing a league in Europe is foolish and would not gather nearly enough interest. But like I said, a Canada-based league is probably possible.

One big problem in Canada is the size of the country and a small population which means that it costs a lot to travel as the large cities are spread apart by hundreds or thousands of kilometers. That's also the reason why there is no football (soccer) league in Canada.
It is the entire point of the discussion. Hockey is a consumerable product. The NHL/other leagues wouldn't exist without either being financially viable or owned and run by very rich people. The market dictates what exists. You have to live in lala land not to understand.

The fact that the quality of female hockey is awful + the negative brand value it unfairly has means it isn't a viable entit financially, at least on any significant "professional" level.

Again ... this isn't a very clever question, the answer stares you in the face.

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12-28-2013, 12:26 AM
  #22
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I'd be more interested in seeing Team Canada/Team USA Women Teams taking on High School hockey teams across the USA and Canada.

It would never happen because it would be seen as degrading but it might actually make for some good games.

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12-28-2013, 01:59 PM
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Never going to happen, North American fans have a large aversion to ads like this.
Unless you're into NASCAR

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12-28-2013, 06:36 PM
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There has yet to be a women's soccer league that's been able to stick together and women's soccer in this country is significantly more popular than women's hockey.

Not enough interest for it to happen.

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12-29-2013, 12:42 PM
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I'd be more interested in seeing Team Canada/Team USA Women Teams taking on High School hockey teams across the USA and Canada.

It would never happen because it would be seen as degrading but it might actually make for some good games.
The Canadian women's team generally participates for at least part of the season in the Calgary midget AAA league and they don't exactly dominate either

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Unless you're into NASCAR
very different scenarios

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