HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > New York Rangers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Finding A Number One Center

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
08-10-2009, 03:59 PM
  #26
Callahan Auto
Rational Police
 
Callahan Auto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Country: United States
Posts: 1,674
vCash: 500
Not every guy develops so early into his career and not every guy that develops early blossoms into a star player. I think it's a bit foolish to cast judgment on how good Dubinsky could be this early. He's still young and, for all we know, could be on the verge of a major breakout. I'm not convinced of that but I'm not sure of anything with his development.

Callahan Auto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-10-2009, 04:00 PM
  #27
FanHabtic
Registered User
 
FanHabtic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 9,680
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
Oh I agree that he isnt the most talented kid in the world but he was a really late bloomer. I dont think he will ever light the world on fire when it comes to goal scoring but I actually think his vision on the ice is above average and he could turn into a pretty good playmaker who pots 20 goals a season. With his size and work-ethic having him compliment a scoring winger would be the way to go for this team especially under Torts who wants to stress being aggressive.
I agree with your evaluation above. To me you described a potential 2nd line centerman. I think Dubinsky has the potential to be just that.

FanHabtic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-10-2009, 04:03 PM
  #28
NYR Viper
Moderator
 
NYR Viper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: PA
Country: United States
Posts: 29,559
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FanHabtic View Post
I agree with your evaluation above. To me you described a potential 2nd line centerman. I think Dubinsky has the potential to be just that.
Ehh, ideally he would be a 2nd line center if you have a superstar as the 1st center but I think he could be a serviceable 1st line cetner with everything he brings.

NYR Viper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-10-2009, 04:06 PM
  #29
FanHabtic
Registered User
 
FanHabtic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 9,680
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
Ehh, ideally he would be a 2nd line center if you have a superstar as the 1st center but I think he could be a serviceable 1st line cetner with everything he brings.
I think that's asking for way too much. He hasn't even proven himself as a 2nd liner...

FanHabtic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-10-2009, 04:10 PM
  #30
levski87
Registered User
 
levski87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 3,980
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
Ehh, ideally he would be a 2nd line center if you have a superstar as the 1st center but I think he could be a serviceable 1st line cetner with everything he brings.
I think you are overvaluing Dubinsky's passing ability. He really isn't that great of a passer. He doesn't have the on-ice vision to make great passes. Once in a while he might make a decent pass, but in all he just isn't a good passer and goal scorer.

Comparing him to Marc Savard is kind of ridiculous though, viper. Savard can score and has elite playmaking ability. Dubinsky doesn't have either.

levski87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-10-2009, 04:15 PM
  #31
levski87
Registered User
 
levski87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 3,980
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FanHabtic View Post
I think that's asking for way too much. He hasn't even proven himself as a 2nd liner...
Exactly. I have to agree with FanHabtic here.

Its funny how Chris Drury is labelled a #3 center on these boards, but has put up over 20g and 50p in all but 2 seasons of entering the league. Dubi on the other hand is labelled a #2 center, yet the guy barely cracks 40 points, but judging him by his POTENTIAL we would put him on the 1st line to center Gaborik?...

To me, Dubi is really a #3 center and he plays like one. Besides his grit, he doesn't strike me as a player who has much offensive upside, that includes scoring and passing.

levski87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-10-2009, 04:16 PM
  #32
bobbop
Henrik & Pop
 
bobbop's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Suburban Phoenix
Country: United States
Posts: 5,153
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vipernsx View Post
Try this as a different approach...

Rangers have young guys who also play center, let them play before you decide to clog the position with an overpaid underachieving veteran who we will complain about all year. If a team has a decent center who's not overpaid and underachieving, for sure, they're not looking to trade him either.
You might want to read the whole post next time.

bobbop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-10-2009, 05:00 PM
  #33
BrooklynRangersFan
Change is good.
 
BrooklynRangersFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Brooklyn of course
Country: United States
Posts: 10,914
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gift of Gaborik View Post
Not every guy develops so early into his career and not every guy that develops early blossoms into a star player. I think it's a bit foolish to cast judgment on how good Dubinsky could be this early. He's still young and, for all we know, could be on the verge of a major breakout. I'm not convinced of that but I'm not sure of anything with his development.
Good point. I also am dubious of Dubi's ability to develop into a #1 center, but it's hard to peg him based on his past stats. It shouldn't be overlooked that he went through a late growth spurt. He was viewed as a scrappy, gritty guy with some offensive touch when he was drafted. But sometime between then and the time he stuck with the Rangers, he grew like 3 inches and 30 pounds.

BrooklynRangersFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-10-2009, 05:03 PM
  #34
Ola
Registered User
 
Ola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Sweden
Country: Sweden
Posts: 18,720
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbop View Post
So who here is even remotely available? You can be sure it is not the Crosby's or Datsyuk's of the world but for that matter it isn't the Stasny's or Koivu's either. It's the usual suspects -- Richards (big contract), Savard (last year of contract), Thornton (playoff disappearing act), Connolly (injury prone) and Marleau (last year of contract, better on the wing) Like a used car lot, there's something wrong with each one of them.
Thats not the question, right now its none of them.

But that will change, it always does. Right now is not the time for us to get a 1st line center. The kids we have don't have allot of value, like a Sanguintti isn't worthless but he would still only be a throw in as a "prospect" in a deal.

If we start the season with the kids and younger players we have: AA/Grachev and Sangs/MDZ; Dubinsky and Callahan; Girardi and Potter -- or whatever, they will get to play in bigger roles and their value will go up. If a Sangs breaks into the NHL and puts up some numbers atleast his value will skyrocket. Like Dubinskys value have gone up for example. Or Callahans.

Then during the comming season, or next summer, something will come up. Like look back the last 5 years at big names that have been moved -- how many of thoose deals seemed "likely" 6/12 month before they happend? Joe T to SJ. JJ came here and all the others. Most likely we have to go the UFA route to get someone -- but right now I think there's very little that makes sense out there...

Ola is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-10-2009, 05:15 PM
  #35
Ola
Registered User
 
Ola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Sweden
Country: Sweden
Posts: 18,720
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garfinkel1 View Post
No one expected him to be as good as he is now and he done nothing to show signs of halted development. It seems as though he is a better player from month to month (minus december ) so that's a pretty bold statement for you to make. Why do you say he will never be a #1 center? Also, Please don't point to his point totals from year to year. A)His game is much more than his point totals; B)He went from playing with a HOF to playing with sub-par players (if that).
You know what, I think there was a couple of us who thought Dubinsky had more potential 3-4 years ago then now, and I know Renney said that Dubi could become a 1st line center before camp almost 2+ years ago.

I know I wrote on this board that I thought Dubinsky's top potential was like a Jason Allison type of 1st line center when I saw him in HFD. Like a top center who wasn't as skilled as the other top guys, but who still could get the job done. But since then I think NY or whatever have got to Dubi's head and he have lost that crazy hunger he had as a kid. Last season was his soapmore year, I am not drawing any conclusions from it -- but he really did not impress in any area, and was a reallly big dissapointment in many other areas; especially defensivly and physically.

So allot of people have seen it in Dubinsky for a long time, and his development really halted last season, and pts wise last season Zherdev actually carried him more then anything -- besides that I agree with you...

The bottomline is that Dubi is still young; he have developed really well besides in his soapmore season in the NHL; talentwise he isn't close to a Mike Richards but he have displayed allot of hockey before last season so its not impossible to predict that he will ptu it all together in the future. But, that certainly remains to be seen...

Ola is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-10-2009, 05:29 PM
  #36
SkerZ
LGR
 
SkerZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: NEW YORK
Posts: 583
vCash: 500
Wow good read

SkerZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-10-2009, 05:40 PM
  #37
offdacrossbar
with the 10th pick..
 
offdacrossbar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: da cuse
Country: Tuvalu
Posts: 9,019
vCash: 500
have to agree with lev and fan here.

dubi just hasnt shown me anything to indicate hell be a solid #1 guy this season or even in the future. he lacks some hockey sense but more importantly, he doesnt have a #1 centers skill set. he isnt as poor skater by any means, but hes not an overly fluid skater either. hes not a great passer. he doesnt have a great shot. hes been well........average so far and that folks aint good enoughfor a #1 centerman and if he plays with gaby thats exactly what hell be.

so far, hes shown results of what i predict hell be, a 3rd line centerman who plays with an edge or a 2nd line winger who plays with an edge. again, i think hell eventually move to the wing where hell see better results.

and before everyone starts to snap, i know hes young blah, blah, blah....

but if we go into this season with dubinsky as our #1 centerman, hell see a regular diet of first pair dmen and top checkers night in night out. hell need to play the pp to continue to create chemistry with gaborik, yet i dont see him being on the 1st pp unit at all and lastly, hell need to produce pucks for gaborik to bury. again, not sure hes that guy.

i hope he excels and proves me wrong. hes young and has potential but hes got no time to develop, in a few months it will be game on and hell be playing alongside marion gaborik and hell need to be ready to go. right now.

offdacrossbar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-10-2009, 05:50 PM
  #38
NYR Viper
Moderator
 
NYR Viper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: PA
Country: United States
Posts: 29,559
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by levski87 View Post
I think you are overvaluing Dubinsky's passing ability. He really isn't that great of a passer. He doesn't have the on-ice vision to make great passes. Once in a while he might make a decent pass, but in all he just isn't a good passer and goal scorer.

Comparing him to Marc Savard is kind of ridiculous though, viper. Savard can score and has elite playmaking ability. Dubinsky doesn't have either.
I think you are undervaluing a 23 y/o center going into his 3rd season in the NHL. I am not saying next season he will be that player, what I AM saying is that he will get better.

I wasnt comparing him to Savard, I was just pointing out that not every 1st line center is good at everything. Savard isnt good defensively or at being aggressive/forcing the other team into mistakes. Unless you are talking about Dasyuk, Zetterberg, Getzlaf, Crosby or malkin most #1 centers are good at certain things and not at others.

NYR Viper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-10-2009, 05:52 PM
  #39
Fletch
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 21,473
vCash: 500
Dubi's not a #1 guy. He's a guy who can keep up just enough to fill a hole, but he will keep his wingers down because he is not a finisher and he's not a playmaker. He keeps plays alive, I will give him that, and he mostly does that by kicking the puck up to the point, however, creative centerman will make a play that results in a scoring opportunity (and often a turnover, to be fair, but nobody really scored 100 points playing it safe). Dubi's never been a great scorer at any levl, not even in the AHL, so I'm not sure why anyone would paint him as a #1. I think many got enamored with the fact that he played with Jagr, in a season in which it was Jagr's statistically worse year, and was a centerman on a PP that was horrific, but the fact that he was young, aggressive and hit, while putting up decent points for a kid, made people think of him more than he really is. I like him. I happen to think he works his tail off. I can't say if I think he's a second liner or third liner because two seasons in, it's still tough to say. I can say that I don't believe he's a #1 centerman, and I can say that I don't think he's a winger either.


Last edited by Fletch: 08-11-2009 at 09:10 AM.
Fletch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-10-2009, 06:05 PM
  #40
LyNX27
Registered User
 
LyNX27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Wisconsin
Country: United States
Posts: 2,276
vCash: 500
Square Peg into Round Hole... Keep pushing and it's gotta work!

LyNX27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-10-2009, 06:26 PM
  #41
levski87
Registered User
 
levski87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 3,980
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
I think you are undervaluing a 23 y/o center going into his 3rd season in the NHL. I am not saying next season he will be that player, what I AM saying is that he will get better.

I wasnt comparing him to Savard, I was just pointing out that not every 1st line center is good at everything. Savard isnt good defensively or at being aggressive/forcing the other team into mistakes. Unless you are talking about Dasyuk, Zetterberg, Getzlaf, Crosby or malkin most #1 centers are good at certain things and not at others.
I honestly don't see him getting that much better. I also don't think Dubinsky is that great defensively. He's average at many things, hence why he will never be a #1 center. He might get good enough to be a #2 center, but for now he's staying at #3.

I don't mean to hate on Dubi more, but I think his stats were "padded" in playing with Zherdev and Jagr.

levski87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-10-2009, 06:56 PM
  #42
vipernsx
Flatus Expeller
 
vipernsx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Country: United States
Posts: 6,529
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by levski87 View Post
Dubinsky is not and will never be a #1 center. Anisimov will be a #1 center. I'm sorry, but in no way is Dubinsky even close to being a #1 center. Forget his point totals, the guy does not have a good wrist shot and his passing is sub par.
Nyland wasn't a #1, Gomez wasn't a #1 and Drury isn't a #1 either yet we've been able to get by with them as it. Lets get by with Dubs for now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by levski87 View Post
Anisimov on the other hand will be a #1 center. I predict by December, Dubinsky will not be centering Gaborik.
Hey I love AA and can't wait to see what he can do, but a #1 C is pushing it and being the team's top pivot by less then halfway through his rookie year is not only pushing it, but have a tug boat come and help pull it too.

vipernsx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-10-2009, 07:00 PM
  #43
Fletch
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 21,473
vCash: 500
I agree somewhat, Viper, however I don't think it's fair to compare Dubi to those guys. Nylander was always somewhere around a 60-point guy; Gomez and Drury weren't too far off, and they did that prior to playing with Jagr.

Fletch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-10-2009, 07:03 PM
  #44
n8
WAAAAAAA!!!
 
n8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: san francisco
Country: United States
Posts: 7,439
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
Dubinsky has been a #1 center before, people seem to forget that as well. Anisimov and Stepan look to have the ceilings of #1 centers but will probably end up as 2nd line centers but there is nothing wrongwith having 3 #2 centers as long as they are all two-way centers.
not by the standards set up by the OP (18 minutes per game, 0.8 ppg)

n8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-10-2009, 07:07 PM
  #45
beastly115
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 11,015
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vipernsx View Post
Nyland wasn't a #1, Gomez wasn't a #1 and Drury isn't a #1 either yet we've been able to get by with them as it. Lets get by with Dubs for now.


Hey I love AA and can't wait to see what he can do, but a #1 C is pushing it and being the team's top pivot by less then halfway through his rookie year is not only pushing it, but have a tug boat come and help pull it too.
Sorry, but Dubinsky isn't on the same level as Nylander, Gomez, or Drury. Those were #2 guys posing as #1 C's. Dubinsky is a #3.

beastly115 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-10-2009, 08:03 PM
  #46
darko
Registered User
 
darko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Country: Australia
Posts: 37,507
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garfinkel1 View Post
We have 3 possible stud #1 centers....

Dubi
Amsinov
Stepan - Everyone always forgets about this guy!

I doubt it. Dubi will probably become good 2nd line C, Anisimov a very good 2nd line or marginal 1st line C and while Stepan has legit 1st line C potential. This is if everything falls in place and how often does that happen?

Hope I'm wrong though and all 3 turn out like you said.

darko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-10-2009, 08:07 PM
  #47
darko
Registered User
 
darko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Country: Australia
Posts: 37,507
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
I look at it this way:

I think they should go into the season with what they have to see how the younger players work out. If it doesnt work try and make a deal during the season for someone or wait until next offseason and try like hell to try and sign Savard.

This.

1. we cant deal for Savard since Bruins are looking to shed salary just like us
2. even if Bruins could take salary back he would need to overpay for Savard


Lets just see how we go with Dubi, Drury and AA and then if we need to lets make a run at Savard next offseason (if he's still available).

darko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-10-2009, 08:35 PM
  #48
NYR Viper
Moderator
 
NYR Viper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: PA
Country: United States
Posts: 29,559
vCash: 500
The thing that is killing me is that people are basically stating that Dubinsky will not get any better than he is right now. That kind of bothers me considering his age and his sophmore slump he went through last season, without that he would have surpassed his point totals from the year before with less playing time and less PP time. on a team that had the least goals scored in the entire league.

NYR Viper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-10-2009, 08:41 PM
  #49
Banks3rdLineCenter
 
Banks3rdLineCenter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: New York City
Country: United States
Posts: 2,052
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
The thing that is killing me is that people are basically stating that Dubinsky will not get any better than he is right now. That kind of bothers me considering his age and his sophmore slump he went through last season, without that he would have surpassed his point totals from the year before with less playing time and less PP time. on a team that had the least goals scored in the entire league.
I agree. I also feel that Dubi showed flashes during the playoffs of having the potential to be a very good center. Also, judging from Torts' comments, Dubi is going to get every chance to excel.

Obviously, in a perfect world we would have a more established center to pair with Gaborik. However, in this salary cap league, every team is going to have weak areas on the roster.

Banks3rdLineCenter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-10-2009, 08:43 PM
  #50
Jxmarts
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 347
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gift of Gaborik View Post
Not every guy develops so early into his career and not every guy that develops early blossoms into a star player. I think it's a bit foolish to cast judgment on how good Dubinsky could be this early. He's still young and, for all we know, could be on the verge of a major breakout. I'm not convinced of that but I'm not sure of anything with his development.
I have little doubt that Dubi will continue to develop & improve through his 20's, and I strongly believe he can be a key contributor to a winning team. But the kind of natural playmaking & scoring talent that top players have is not something that comes by merely with hard work and experience. It's true that you say "not every guy develops so early into his career and not every guy that develops early blossoms into a star player." But the guys that do develop into stars have almost always demonstrated their natural ability at the junior or amateur level. Sometimes these ''star" players take time to adjust as pros, but in almost every case they've done it somewhere at the lower levels. Marc Savard, for example, was only drafted in the 4th round, and he bounced around a while before he found his niche in the NHL. But if you look at his numbers as a junior, he dominated as a scorer. It's extremely rare to find a player who emerged as an offensive star in the NHL who hadn't already shown his natural ability at some very young age.

As for "casting judgment," it's the responsibility of management to make projections on their young players. The Rangers can't simply "tryout" all their young players for 5 years on the hope they might develop into first line players. They need to evaluate the projected skills of their players and make decisions accordingly. If you ask me, I think Anisimov might have the tools. Dubi doesn't.

I love Dubi as a player, and I want him to remain a Ranger. I just don't think he has the kind of elite talent you need from your top center, if you're hoping to compete for the Cup.

Jxmarts is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:26 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.