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Gaborik: Why no injury discount?

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Old
08-11-2009, 05:37 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post

We had what many experts called the best line in hockey in Straka-Nyls-JJ. That was a helluva dominant line; and their stats doesn't even show it all. They always pressured 150% more then what showed on the scoreboard (which in itself isn't only positive, but it definitly helped to carry the subpar D's we had who got a free ride)... That line should have been kept intact untill it was carried of the ice. Kimmo Timmonen should have been pursuited -- we needed a PPQB and he is one of the best. We should also have gone after a crease clearer. Then Slats should have gone after a Renney type of center for the 2nd line. Like a Andy McDonald who could have been had cheap. Then now when it would have been time to kick out the vets on the first line we would have had a team and plenty of money to replace JJ and his entourage. JJ wouldn't have brought us a cup -- but instead of planning 2-3 years down the line 2-3 years ago Slats thought that he could turn us into a contender overnight by taking shortcut after shortcut. Thats what we are paying for now.
You do not write like Shakespeare but all your points are correct and valid analytically. (You are) One of a few contributors who besides sometimes needing help in grammar uses his own head and not stomach/gut instincts. There is too much shoot from the hip/I think and write with my gut machismo here - very refreshing to read a quality perspective. I would pay 20 bucks a year easy to read hockey commentary just like this - do not happen to comment on golf do you?

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08-11-2009, 10:27 AM
  #27
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But what is top dollars? Did Redden get top dollars?
Top dollar is the absolute most that the player could possibly get... and then Sather one ups it. Short of hearing what an actual offer was from the mouth of the GM, I won't believe in a million years that Redden, Gomez, Drury, or Gaborik could have gotten more money or better terms from any other teams.


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Like the best make 50% more then Redden, 50%, is that top dollars? If 6.5m is top dollars, what is 10m?
Who's getting 10 million?


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08-11-2009, 12:47 PM
  #28
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But what is top dollars? Did Redden get top dollars?

Like the best make 50% more then Redden, 50%, is that top dollars? If 6.5m is top dollars, what is 10m?

People set a standard at what a player ideally would make for a dream team with 57m to spend. Facts are that if Drury, Gaborik, Rozi and Redden wouldn't have been signed we would have the team we have now -- without Drury, Gaborik, Rozi and Redden. With that said -- I am not defending Slats in any way. I think he have been very subpar as the GM for the NYR. Maloney and Renney, or Renney and Maloney really, got us out of one of the deepest holes in pro-sports. Slats had stepped back and was mostly acting as a president more then anything. Then he thought it was fun again to be a GM and stepped back in when we started to do well. He obviously hated how Nyls, JJ and co played and tryed to force feed JJ a north-south type of center -- instead of creating a N-S 2nd line behind JJ's line which would have been the right thing to do. He then could not belive that his N-S players instantly were hits on broadway, and he decided to blame JJ and "hand the team over to Gomez and Drury". Which was a disaster. He tryed to replace JJ with Z and Näslund. Which was a disaster. Every year he have turned over like on avg 50% of the roster -- thats nothing but insane in itself. The constant turnover of the roster.

But that doesn't mean that every UFA we sign is "overpaid". If you want to bring in a player from the outside its gooing to cost you and its gooing to cost exactly as much as we are paying these guys; the Drury's, the Gomez's, the Redden's. Thats the type of players we get for the price we are paying for them. We could substract them and replace them with Ed Jovanovski/Sheldon Souray, Ryan Smyth/Daniel Briere or whoever and the results would still be same.

So don't blame Slats for overpaying for vets, blame Slats for not building on what we got and constantly overturning the roster.

We had what many experts called the best line in hockey in Straka-Nyls-JJ. That was a helluva dominant line; and their stats doesn't even show it all. They always pressured 150% more then what showed on the scoreboard (which in itself isn't only positive, but it definitly helped to carry the subpar D's we had who got a free ride)... That line should have been kept intact untill it was carried of the ice. Kimmo Timmonen should have been pursuited -- we needed a PPQB Aand he is one of the best. We should also have gone after a crease clearer. Then Slats should have gone after a Renney type of center for the 2nd line. Like a Andy McDonald who could have been had cheap. Then now when it would have been time to kick out the vets on the first line we would have had a team and plenty of money to replace JJ and his entourage. JJ wouldn't have brought us a cup -- but instead of planning 2-3 years down the line 2-3 years ago Slats thought that he could turn us into a contender overnight by taking shortcut after shortcut. Thats what we are paying for now.
The highest cap hit among d-men is Chara $7.5 million. $1 million is not 50% of $6.5 million. Redden will also be the highest paid defenseman by salary next season. Also, none of you knows how much other teams were offering. The Rangers do have overpaid players and Gaborik is a concern. It's not a foregone conclusion that it's a poor signing, but I would say there's a high chance it backfires.

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08-11-2009, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by nycbruins View Post
The highest cap hit among d-men is Chara $7.5 million. $1 million is not 50% of $6.5 million. Redden will also be the highest paid defenseman by salary next season. Also, none of you knows how much other teams were offering. The Rangers do have overpaid players and Gaborik is a concern. It's not a foregone conclusion that it's a poor signing, but I would say there's a high chance it backfires.
Redden is overpaid, I agree.

However, I want a percentage on the chance that Gaborik backfires, and I want a definition of what that means.

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08-11-2009, 05:15 PM
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Redden is overpaid, I agree.

However, I want a percentage on the chance that Gaborik backfires, and I want a definition of what that means.
Backfires as in he consistently gets injured every season, but not enough to be definitely out for the season, thereby making LTIR useless and his $7.5 million cap hit mostly wasted. It's happened in Minnesota a few times. That, and I've heard that he has some maturity and mental preparation issues that are usually not good for a young millionaire in NYC. If those issues existed in Minnesota, I'd have to think they'll come up in Manhattan.

But then again, maybe his hips are good to go and you have yourself a certain 40-55 goals every season and a ton of speed on the wing.
Time will tell. Sather loves his risks, he just hasn't been winning many of these gambles lately.

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08-12-2009, 12:57 PM
  #31
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Backfires as in he consistently gets injured every season, but not enough to be definitely out for the season, thereby making LTIR useless and his $7.5 million cap hit mostly wasted. It's happened in Minnesota a few times. That, and I've heard that he has some maturity and mental preparation issues that are usually not good for a young millionaire in NYC. If those issues existed in Minnesota, I'd have to think they'll come up in Manhattan.
That's right on the money. To be fair to Gaborik, when people talk about maturity issues they often mean a guy's got a bad attitude and that he's hard to get along with. But that's never been his problem - he's a really easygoing guy, and in the 8 years that he was here I don't think there was ever even so much as a rumor that any of his teammates didn't like him or that he was a problem in the locker room. The media all said he was a really nice, friendly guy, always willing to talk even if it wasn't a good time for him and never having a bad word to say about anyone.


It's more like there's a big part of him that never really grew up. He's shy, and almost childlike in some ways. He's like that 12-year old kid who never had any friends and just stayed in his room playing computer games all day. Nobody disliked him, but he really wasn't close to any of his teammates, except when Demitra was here. He's just kind of strange, like he's lost in his own world, like he's got some kind of wall between him and everyone else and nobody can really figure out what's going on on the other side of it. He's a little naive, just a harmless, likable head case.

In 8 years, I don't think anyone in the Twin Cities (including his teammates) ever really figured out who he is or what makes him tick. He's just kind of a ghost; scores 6 points, showers, goes home and plays video games. Then the next day, he comes to work again. I think that's a big reason not many people here really miss him. we've got nothing against him, but he never - ever - connected with the fans. He did a lot of charity stuff, but even that was quiet and behind the scenes. His head was always off in some other universe that nobody else could see.

And that's the thing i worry about for him in New York. I don't think that's going to work there. He's either going to have to outgrow that, or he'll get eaten up. In Minnesota, we always got the sense that the only time his mind was on hockey was when he was on the ice. I think he's going to have to learn how to focus more on the game than he ever did here, and if he doesn't, I think New York will be a bad experience for him. For his sake, and the sake of your fans, I'm hoping someone in your organization is thinking about that and has some ideas on how to work with him on it. He seems to have a pretty delicate personality for a hockey player, and I don't know how he's going to respond to the pressure he's about to find himself under.

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08-12-2009, 01:01 PM
  #32
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You do not write like Shakespeare but all your points are correct and valid analytically. (You are) One of a few contributors who besides sometimes needing help in grammar uses his own head and not stomach/gut instincts. There is too much shoot from the hip/I think and write with my gut machismo here - very refreshing to read a quality perspective. I would pay 20 bucks a year easy to read hockey commentary just like this - do not happen to comment on golf do you?
hey, he's a swede otherwise I completely agree.

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08-12-2009, 01:57 PM
  #33
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That, and I've heard that he has some maturity and mental preparation issues that are usually not good for a young millionaire in NYC. If those issues existed in Minnesota, I'd have to think they'll come up in Manhattan.
Exactly where did you get this from? He's quiet and not a leader but anything beyond that is garbage.

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08-12-2009, 02:08 PM
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And that's the thing i worry about for him in New York. I don't think that's going to work there. He's either going to have to outgrow that, or he'll get eaten up. In Minnesota, we always got the sense that the only time his mind was on hockey was when he was on the ice. I think he's going to have to learn how to focus more on the game than he ever did here, and if he doesn't, I think New York will be a bad experience for him. For his sake, and the sake of your fans, I'm hoping someone in your organization is thinking about that and has some ideas on how to work with him on it. He seems to have a pretty delicate personality for a hockey player, and I don't know how he's going to respond to the pressure he's about to find himself under.
First off, thanks for the info. Very helpful.

Now, I don't how it was in the Wild organization, but the Rangers, from all I've seen, are a team that works very hard to help their players adjust and thrive in NYC. It seems that they work very hard to maintain a support network to keep players as happy/well-adjusted as possible.

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08-12-2009, 02:24 PM
  #35
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Now, I don't how it was in the Wild organization, but the Rangers, from all I've seen, are a team that works very hard to help their players adjust and thrive in NYC. It seems that they work very hard to maintain a support network to keep players as happy/well-adjusted as possible.

It sure didn't work all that well with Mr. Zherdev.

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08-12-2009, 02:28 PM
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It sure didn't work all that well with Mr. Zherdev.
No it didn't....

The Rangers should fire the person that "does such a good job with helping players adjust."
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08-12-2009, 02:30 PM
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And that's the thing i worry about for him in New York. I don't think that's going to work there. He's either going to have to outgrow that, or he'll get eaten up. In Minnesota, we always got the sense that the only time his mind was on hockey was when he was on the ice. I think he's going to have to learn how to focus more on the game than he ever did here, and if he doesn't, I think New York will be a bad experience for him. For his sake, and the sake of your fans, I'm hoping someone in your organization is thinking about that and has some ideas on how to work with him on it. He seems to have a pretty delicate personality for a hockey player, and I don't know how he's going to respond to the pressure he's about to find himself under.
This is something that always irritates me about sports and fans. Some players just don't have that ability to deal with media and fans in a way that "connects" with them. Just how not every regular person has that ability. It shouldn't be something that's held against them or used to run them out of town. I'd take an entire team of quiet players who keep to themselves if it meant them winning the cup.

I guess it just irritates me that something like that can be such a problem for some fans that they'd despise a very good player just because he doesn't jump around saying "look at me look how I connect with all of you while I go off and spend my millions that you peons will never have!"

At any rate...I don't think it will be a problem in terms of on ice performance. The NY media pressure really isn't that bad compared to many other places in the league (hello Canada). Where players get in the most trouble is when they don't produce. If he produces, he should be fine, and that will keep the whining about his media presence to a minimum.

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No it didn't....

The Rangers should fire the person that "does such a good job with helping players adjust."
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Not sure how Zherdev's on ice performance and subsequent contract issues are really related to how well he did in the city or with his teammates. From all reports, he hung out with Dubinsky and Voros quite a bit, at least at first.

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08-12-2009, 02:57 PM
  #38
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Gaborik's injury discount didnt come in the cap hit, but it did come in the number of total years and total money.

A healthy Gaborik fetches at least 8 years, and anywhere between 60-70 million dollars. Hell, Minnesota offered him 80 million last year.

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08-12-2009, 03:00 PM
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No it didn't....

The Rangers should fire the person that "does such a good job with helping players adjust."
Posted via Mobile Device
I never read anything to even remotely suggest that Zherdev couldn't adjust to NY. His play on the ice was the problem, and it was no different than what he did in Columbus. It will likely be no different than what he does anywhere else. It's not a failure to adjust to NY...

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08-12-2009, 03:13 PM
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Exactly where did you get this from? He's quiet and not a leader but anything beyond that is garbage.
Fair enough, but I trust the integrity and the closeness of the source.
I wouldn't have written it if some random person wrote that on another board somewhere.

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08-12-2009, 03:26 PM
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I never read anything to even remotely suggest that Zherdev couldn't adjust to NY. His play on the ice was the problem, and it was no different than what he did in Columbus. It will likely be no different than what he does anywhere else. It's not a failure to adjust to NY...
My response was a bad attempt at sarcasm at the ludicrous suggestion that the Rangers take a hands on approach at helping VETERAN players adjust to NYC.

My bad...
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08-12-2009, 03:27 PM
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Fair enough, but I trust the integrity and the closeness of the source.
I wouldn't have written it if some random person wrote that on another board somewhere.
I lived in Minnesota for 3 years and had several friends in the Wild organization. Gaborik was never considered an off-ice problem. Injury prone? Yes. Quiet and perhaps a little (Euro) shy? Yes. Not a leader?, Yes (but he was named captain of the team for seevral months during his tenure). Trouble?, Nope, never.

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08-12-2009, 06:35 PM
  #43
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This is something that always irritates me about sports and fans. Some players just don't have that ability to deal with media and fans in a way that "connects" with them. Just how not every regular person has that ability. It shouldn't be something that's held against them or used to run them out of town. I'd take an entire team of quiet players who keep to themselves if it meant them winning the cup.

I guess it just irritates me that something like that can be such a problem for some fans that they'd despise a very good player just because he doesn't jump around saying "look at me look how I connect with all of you while I go off and spend my millions that you peons will never have!"
Whose post are you responding to? The reason i ask is, you're quoting my post, but your reply doesn't seem to have anything to do with anything i said. Nobody "ran him out of town," and nobody despises him. In fact, I went out of my way to say that in the 8 years he played here, I never read one word from a teammate or a media member saying anything negative about his personality. everybody seems to like him OK; it's just that he's always been known as a very aloof, detached guy.

All I said regarding that is it's a big reason not many people really miss him - nobody ever knew anything about who he was, and nobody really felt the kindof personal attachment that you develop for more outgoing, personable players who do reach out and connect with the fans. Nobody despises the guy - he's a good guy, just seems disinterested in anything outside of his own little zone. He just never seemed like he really wanted to be here, that's all.

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08-12-2009, 06:52 PM
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That's right on the money. To be fair to Gaborik, when people talk about maturity issues they often mean a guy's got a bad attitude and that he's hard to get along with. But that's never been his problem - he's a really easygoing guy, and in the 8 years that he was here I don't think there was ever even so much as a rumor that any of his teammates didn't like him or that he was a problem in the locker room. The media all said he was a really nice, friendly guy, always willing to talk even if it wasn't a good time for him and never having a bad word to say about anyone.


It's more like there's a big part of him that never really grew up. He's shy, and almost childlike in some ways. He's like that 12-year old kid who never had any friends and just stayed in his room playing computer games all day. Nobody disliked him, but he really wasn't close to any of his teammates, except when Demitra was here. He's just kind of strange, like he's lost in his own world, like he's got some kind of wall between him and everyone else and nobody can really figure out what's going on on the other side of it. He's a little naive, just a harmless, likable head case.

In 8 years, I don't think anyone in the Twin Cities (including his teammates) ever really figured out who he is or what makes him tick. He's just kind of a ghost; scores 6 points, showers, goes home and plays video games. Then the next day, he comes to work again. I think that's a big reason not many people here really miss him. we've got nothing against him, but he never - ever - connected with the fans. He did a lot of charity stuff, but even that was quiet and behind the scenes. His head was always off in some other universe that nobody else could see.

And that's the thing i worry about for him in New York. I don't think that's going to work there. He's either going to have to outgrow that, or he'll get eaten up. In Minnesota, we always got the sense that the only time his mind was on hockey was when he was on the ice. I think he's going to have to learn how to focus more on the game than he ever did here, and if he doesn't, I think New York will be a bad experience for him. For his sake, and the sake of your fans, I'm hoping someone in your organization is thinking about that and has some ideas on how to work with him on it. He seems to have a pretty delicate personality for a hockey player, and I don't know how he's going to respond to the pressure he's about to find himself under.
So basically, he's quiet, works hard, is well liked by teammates and for some reason or other never "connected" with fans in Minnesota.

If he scores goals and stays healthy he'll connect with Ranger fans just fine. Personally, I don't care if he doesn't attend a charity event for the next 5 years. If he plays to the level that he always has, he'll be embraced just fine.

Eli Manning is the definition of a shy, unsavvy type of athlete and from the moment he came to the Giants all we heard was how he'll "never fit in in NY" and how the media will "destroy him." Than he won a championship and all that stopped.

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08-12-2009, 09:54 PM
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So basically, he's quiet, works hard, is well liked by teammates and for some reason or other never "connected" with fans in Minnesota.

If he scores goals and stays healthy he'll connect with Ranger fans just fine. Personally, I don't care if he doesn't attend a charity event for the next 5 years. If he plays to the level that he always has, he'll be embraced just fine.

Eli Manning is the definition of a shy, unsavvy type of athlete and from the moment he came to the Giants all we heard was how he'll "never fit in in NY" and how the media will "destroy him." Than he won a championship and all that stopped.
I think that should have been worded, "He was on the team that won"

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08-13-2009, 05:59 AM
  #46
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This is something that always irritates me about sports and fans. Some players just don't have that ability to deal with media and fans in a way that "connects" with them. Just how not every regular person has that ability. It shouldn't be something that's held against them or used to run them out of town. I'd take an entire team of quiet players who keep to themselves if it meant them winning the cup.
Yeah, I am actually more "worried" about players who are the opposite. Like when Brandon Dubinsky painted some NYR logo he went out in the press afterwards saying something like "Ohh it was just the best time in my entire life" or something like that.

Natrually its just BS (Mighty Ducks=no real life), but why BS about something like that? Of course to make yourself well liked. That don't always strike gold back home in the lockerroom. Get it done on the ice instead, thats what it is about.

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08-13-2009, 07:44 AM
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Whose post are you responding to? The reason i ask is, you're quoting my post, but your reply doesn't seem to have anything to do with anything i said. Nobody "ran him out of town," and nobody despises him. In fact, I went out of my way to say that in the 8 years he played here, I never read one word from a teammate or a media member saying anything negative about his personality. everybody seems to like him OK; it's just that he's always been known as a very aloof, detached guy.

All I said regarding that is it's a big reason not many people really miss him - nobody ever knew anything about who he was, and nobody really felt the kindof personal attachment that you develop for more outgoing, personable players who do reach out and connect with the fans. Nobody despises the guy - he's a good guy, just seems disinterested in anything outside of his own little zone. He just never seemed like he really wanted to be here, that's all.
It wasn't a direct response to you, I was taking what you said and then expanding on the idea. So no I wasn't railing against you or something. I just quoted your post so people would know why I went off on the tangent I did

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08-13-2009, 07:46 AM
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I think that should have been worded, "He was on the team that won"
He played a pretty damn big role in that, though. Quarterbacks are always given a ton of credit when their teams win (unless you're talking about the Ravens superbowl team), and for the most part they deserve it since they need to lead the offense

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08-13-2009, 08:22 AM
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I think that should have been worded, "He was on the team that won"
No way. Yes, the defense was a huge reason why the Giants won, but you can't say that Eli was just along for the ride. 2 TD passes in the 4th quarter of a SB. No other QB has done that except Montana. With 2 1/2 minutes left and the game on the line, he got it done.

Manning: 19/34 55.9% 255 yards 7.5 YPA 2 TDs 1 Int 87.3 QB Rating
Brady: 29/48 60.4% 266 yards 5.54 YPA 1 TD 1 Fumble 82.5 QB Rating

If you want to see what a QB looks like that is "just along for the ride", see the Steeler's 1st SB with Roethlisberger in 2005. He was AWFUL in that game.

Roethlisberger: 9/21 42.9% 129 yards 5.86 YPA 0 TDs 2 Ints 22.6 QB Rating

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08-13-2009, 08:50 AM
  #50
Bleed Ranger Blue
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
No way. Yes, the defense was a huge reason why the Giants won, but you can't say that Eli was just along for the ride. 2 TD passes in the 4th quarter of a SB. No other QB has done that except Montana. With 2 1/2 minutes left and the game on the line, he got it done.

Manning: 19/34 55.9% 255 yards 7.5 YPA 2 TDs 1 Int 87.3 QB Rating
Brady: 29/48 60.4% 266 yards 5.54 YPA 1 TD 1 Fumble 82.5 QB Rating

If you want to see what a QB looks like that is "just along for the ride", see the Steeler's 1st SB with Roethlisberger in 2005. He was AWFUL in that game.

Roethlisberger: 9/21 42.9% 129 yards 5.86 YPA 0 TDs 2 Ints 22.6 QB Rating
So you should pay Eli Manning 100 million dollars for one quarter of football? I guess the Penguins should break the bank for Maxime Talbot then?

That Manning contract is ATROCIOUS. Hes not even a top 10 QB in the NFL

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