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Round 2, Vote 3 (2009 update)

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Old
08-13-2009, 01:38 PM
  #126
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
No Brodeur OR Dryden? Wow... how low have people been ranking the goalies?

Especially considering Sawchuk and Hall were up last time... no way they are that many spots ahead of Brodeur and Dryden.
Dryden should be ahead of those two!

....and those two should be ahead of Brodeur.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
I had Glenn Hall in my 20th spot for voting last round, but, oddly enough, he won't top my list. That honour will go to Fredrick Wellington Taylor.

Should be plenty to discuss this round.
Yep, it's Lalonde and Taylor for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Since submitting my list, I've become convinced that Cyclone Taylor was significantly better than his contemporay Lalonde. Basically, he dominated the PCHA more than Lalonde dominated the NHA, AND after they merged, players form the PCHA generally ranked higher in scoring, etc, showing that its stars were a bit better than the old NHA stars.

Is this a correct assessment?
I would say no. Some Western players came in and did very well, but by the time of the merger, it was really a new generation. The last of the PCHA stars did ok in the NHL, like Fredrickson, Keats, and MacKay, but they did not dominate either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
Here's my post from the last vote. I feel strongly that Trottier was better than Bossy and deserves to be ranked higher.

Hereís my case for why Bryan Trottier is better than Mike Bossy. My opinion is mostly based on watching hours of videos of both of them (their best years were a bit before my time) but Iíll try to keep the arguments as objective as possible.
.....
Conclusion. Iíve shown that Bossyís advantage, offensively, it very small and it doesnít come close to offsetting Trottierís advantages in defense, approval from peers and longevity. Bossy was the better goal-scorer, but Trottier was the better hockey player and should be voted in first.
Nice post. I agree. Trottier brought a lot more to the table and I don't see how I could place Bossy ahead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jekyll View Post
Their league at the time played a style which was unselfish in terms of individual scoring, passing their way into the zone and finding holes while playing a defensively sound game. It was hard for players to stand out in scoring the system they were playing, much like it is today hard to outscore the competition by a large amount or have consecutive #1 years.

After the Summit series, and super series, the Russian began to seriously incorporate the higher scoring Defensemen jumping into the play and methods of NHL hockey and created a blend that was fierce to play against. Makarov's numbers compared to Kharlamov's in the RSL look like he blows Kharlamov away, but you had to be there to understand the change and why he was scoring so much. It was similar to how the NHL jumped in scoring when Orr Revolutionized the game.

It should be Noted, that before his accident(Which seriously Hampered him), his MVP voting looked like this.

Here are the top 5 In MVP voting in his generation among soviet forwards from 69-76 before his car accident really hobbled him.

Kharlamov: 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 5th
Maltsev: 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 4th
Vikulov: 2nd, 3rd, 4th
Mikhailov: 2nd, 4th, 5th
Yakushev: 3rd, 4th, 5th
Petrov: 2nd, 4th
Firsov: 1st
Starshinov: 3rd

That is very telling.
If you look at any great player and use just their career span as a reference point, they will always look like this. But a measure like this cuts off the start and/or end of many other great players' careers.

MVP voting is a category that Kharlamov does not appear to be any better than a few Russian forwards when their whole careers are considered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
Please do more thorough research. He was the MVP of the cup winning Ottawa Senators while he was a defenceman.

Also, the PCHA was a three team league for most of it's existence, so, it was impossible for any team to dominate.
...plus it was "syndicate hockey" where they would shuffle players around as needed to facilitate competitive balance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lextune View Post
My list as of today:

21. Bobby Clarke
22. Mike Bossy
23. Mark Messier
24. Jaromir Jagr
25. Terry Sawchuk
26. Ted Lindsay
27. Valeri Kharlamov
28. Bryan Trottier
29. Steve Yzerman
30. Joe Sakic
31. Edouard "Newsy" Lalonde
32. Viacheslav Fetisov
33. Glenn Hall
34. Larry Robinson
35. Fred "Cyclone" Taylor

The case for Clarke was mostly made last round. And I already made a post about Bossy, (and I stand solidly behind the Bossy post that Jekyll made a few posts after mine as well). After that I think I could still move a few players around.
You don't think Taylor and Lalonde were far more dominant of their era and significant to the history of hockey than Sakic, Yzerman, Messier, and Lindsay? :

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Here's seventieslord's great analysis of Sakic vs. Yzerman that confirms what my eyes told me - Sakic was a bit better than Yzerman.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=583598
Thank you. Sakic should be ahead of Yzerman.

We already did rank Sakic ahead last time, and since then I haven't seen any new evidence in Yzerman's favour so it should stay the same this time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
In the NHA/PCHA era. Joe Malone led the Quebec Bulldogs to two
consecutive Stanley Cups in the pre WWI period. No other NHA/PCHA team won two consecutive Stanley Cups. Malone also contributed to the 1924 Canadiens Stanley Cup championship. But Joe Malone is not eligible in this round.
.
Do you know that all Malone had to do was win the regular season title of the NHA and then beat up Sydney and Moncton teams to win those cups? Not all pre-1914 cups are created equal.

As it applies to Taylor, chalk up 1912 and 1913 as years in which he was unable to win the cup even though he was better than any player eligible to win it. As well as the season he was suspended for not reporting to (I believe) Sam Lichtenhein's team as Sammy thought he owned Taylor.

Plus, as has already been mentioned, Taylor was clutch when he had the chance to win the cup, and played in the IHL where he was instrumental in a championship there. This is a POSITIVE, not a negative. Let's also criticize Kharlamov - he never won a cup! :

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Old
08-13-2009, 01:41 PM
  #127
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I can't believe people are discussing the merit of Hall as a top 30 player. If you're in that camp that doesn't believe Hall is a top 30 player, you should not be part of this project.

The only question mark I have about Hall is his up-and-down playoff record. And for me, it's enough to take him out of the top three, and put him at No. 5. I'm not concerned about his GAA against Montreal in 59 and 60. No goalie, ever, would have had a GAA under 3.00 playing for that Chicago team against that Montreal team. But when I see the clunker series he had against a good, but beatable, Detroit team in 63, 64 and 66, it leaves some question marks.

But bottom line is that he won a Cup, he won a Conn Smythe, he had some outstanding playoff performances, he holds the record for most first team all-star selections (to go with four second-team selections) and he holds the most unbreakable record in the game.

And the competition wasn't an issue post-62. Plante and Sawchuk were still playing at a very high level. He was up against Johnny Bower - a sure-fire top 100 player of all-time. He was up against Gump Worsley, who's damn close to top 120 status. He was up against Giacomin, who's an unarguable HHOFer. That's some pretty good competition from 63 to 69.

Incidentally, my top 10 not added yet (not necessarily in order)
*Milt Schmidt
*Max Bentley
*Ken Dryden
*Martin Brodeur
*Bernie Geoffrion
*Syl Apps Sr.
*Paul Coffey
*Chris Chelios
*Brad Park
*Frank Mahovlich
(A little fuzzy on the last two)

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Old
08-13-2009, 01:43 PM
  #128
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Dryden should be ahead of those two!

....and those two should be ahead of Brodeur.
I don't know about Dryden as the first of the next tier, but I do think the next five goalies (those four plus Tretiak) are all quite close and should be ranked quite close to each other.

Quote:
Yep, it's Lalonde and Taylor for me.
They aren't top of my list, but they are top 5-6 for sure.


Quote:
I would say no. Some Western players came in and did very well, but by the time of the merger, it was really a new generation. The last of the PCHA stars did ok in the NHL, like Fredrickson, Keats, and MacKay, but they did not dominate either.
Yeah, I pretty much took back the post and once again have the two next to each other with nothing better than "well, Lalonde was more physical..." to put one over the other.



Quote:
Thank you. Sakic should be ahead of Yzerman.

We already did rank Sakic ahead last time, and since then I haven't seen any new evidence in Yzerman's favour so it should stay the same this time.
Agree, though I don't think it matters too much, as I doubt either goes up this time. I mean, I think active/recent retirees were underrated on the last list, and it's doubtful I'll even vote to put them on.

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Old
08-13-2009, 01:47 PM
  #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Center Shift View Post
How is that misleading? Hall was competing against Plante and Sawchuk, and he beat them. If you consider Sawchuk so bad that it was easy to beat him in awards voting, then that's not exactly making a case for Sawchuk as a top-25 player. Hall was also competing against Johnny Bower and Gump Worsley, two Hall of Famers who were pretty good goalies as well.

As far as the "Plante was on the Rangers excuse", Glenn Hall was named the First Team All-Star goalie in 1958 on a Chicago team that missed the playoffs and went 24-39-7. How did he do that if playing on a bad team meant you had no chance at the award?

Are there any quotes from back then to support your theory that Doug Harvey hurt Jacques Plante in All-Star voting? Given that the Vezina Trophy winner was very often the same guy as the First All-Star goalie, I'd say that the bias was almost certainly against Hall. And he still won 7 First Team All-Stars. It's possible to argue his playoff performances, but his regular season record is very, very strong.
It's misleading in the sense that "Hall was competiting against Sawchuk and Plante and came out ahead" makes it sound like he, at his best, was better than them at their bests. When, in fact, he won 4/7 awards when they were not the guys generally getting the other All-Star nods.

I wasn't trying to imply that Worsley, Bower, and lesser versions of Plante and Sawchuk were chopped liver, but it isn't the all-time great competition that some call it.

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Old
08-13-2009, 01:54 PM
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post
[B]I can't believe people are discussing the merit of Hall as a top 30 player. If you're in that camp that doesn't believe Hall is a top 30 player, you should not be part of this project.

The only question mark I have about Hall is his up-and-down playoff record.
Just mathmatically speaking 5/30 is 1/6 or the ratio of goalies to skaters, so dropping one of the 5 to the 31-40 range isn't THAT outlandish (especially if one thinks that, say, 5-7 is very close).

Although, I suppose it is a bit of revisionist history in a sense to drop Hall much lower...

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Old
08-13-2009, 01:56 PM
  #131
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Excellent.
I do have Hall in the top 30, (number 30 though), and I would like to see him a little higher, (he was higher on my original list), and this is some good food for thought for just that.....

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Old
08-13-2009, 01:58 PM
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RabbinsDuck View Post
Robinson has 2 Norrises and a Conn Smythe, obviously against better competition - but Fetisov was not the "Russian Larry Robinson" he was the "Russian Bobby Orr". Like comparing Kharlamov to Gretzky, that is most likely taking it too far, but Fetisov accomplished much more than Robinson.

Internationally, Fetisov has won two golds (1984, 1988) and one bronze (1980) in the Olympics, and seven golds (1978, 1981, 1982, 1983, 1986, 1989, 1990), one silver (1987), two bronzes (1985, 1991) in the World Championships, one Canada Cup in 1981, and Ice Hockey World Junior Championship in 1978 (selected best defenseman in 77 and 78).

He was a russian First All-Star Team nine times and played for Moscow CSKA which won seven straight Soviet championships (1977 to 1983).
At the World championships, he was named the tournament's best defenseman in five seasons. 1977 was also when the World championships moved to later in the years to allow more NHL players to participate.

Robinson did not fare nearly as well internationally--

Canada Cup scoring:

Robinson
1977: 7 GP 0 Pts
1982: 7 GP 1 Pts
1985: 8 GP 3 Pts

Fetisov
1982: 7 GP 8 Pts
1988: 8 GP 7 Pts

At the 1981 World Championships, Robinson had 2 Pts in 6 games while Fetisov had 5 Pts in 8 games. All told, Fetisov had 96 points in 101 games throughout 11 seasons at the World Champinships. 33 points in 22 games at the Olympics.

Obviously Robinson has a much better NHL career, and like all early russians coming over, Fetisov struggled with the NHL initially, but he was always a defensive stalwart despite not having the same offensive game he once had. It is also interesting that the tail end of Fetisov's career in the NHL is better than Robinson's (their final 5 years).

Any intangible you want to award for leadership, ingenuity, hard work, integrity, longevity, dedication to the sport - they all apply to Fetisov who still examplifies russian hockey, despite being one of the first defectors. He planned on retiring after the 1997 season and Stanley Cup, but came back one more year to help win one for Konstantinov.
Good post. I'm pretty sure Fetisov should be ahead of Robinson.

Possibly Park, too. They achieved almost the exact same things individually, (with Orr conveniently and fairly removed) and when you consider the help each player had, a case could be made that Park was better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirtless Joe View Post
C1958: Are you honestly still going on about the Umberger video?

Here's some more info about some of the greats in Soviet:

Soviet MVP Top 5 rankings:
Player First Second Third Fourth Fifth Total
Vladislav Tretiak 5 2 3 2 12
Sergei Makarov 3 2 2 3 10
Vyacheslav Fetisov 2 2 3 1 1 9
Boris Mikhailov 2 1 2 1 2 8
Valeri Kharlamov 1 3 2 2 8
Aleksander Maltsev 1 2 1 4 8
Vladimir Krutov 1 2 2 1 6
Vladimir Petrov 2 1 1 4
Anatoli Firsov 3 3
Igor Larionov 1 2 3
Vyacheslav Starshinov 1 2 3
There we go.

As I was saying, Kharlamov is not even that dominant compared to his peers in the Russian league in terms of MVP voting. Makarov and Mikhailov have better records, and Maltsev's is almost as good. Krutov is not far behind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post
Sorry I didn't vote last time. Focused on holidays.

Top 10 for this round (going from the top of my head):

1. Terry Sawchuk: Why is this guy still an option?
2. Ted Lindsay: A clear cut above any other forward available. Look at how he played the game.
3. Mark Messier: Definitely the best option among the new options. Look at how he played the game. Part 2.
4. Glenn Hall: Most first team all-star nods among goalies, and the most unbreakable record in the sport.
5. Bobby Clarke: One of hockey's greatest leaders, greatest competitors and greatest playmakers.
6. Larry Robinson: One of the defining defencemen of all time. Everyone is still looking for the next Robinson.
7. Bryan Trottier: One of the great two-way centres to ever play the game. Key part of a dynasty.
8. Mike Bossy: One of the best goal scorers ever was an underrated playmaker. Three straight 17-goal playoffs.
9. Jaromir Jagr: An offensive machine who dominated with goal-scoring, playmaking and sheer strength.
10. Slava Fetisov: Tremendous all-round defender who played with a mean streak and great skill.
Not surprised to see Taylor and Lalonde on the outside.

It wouldn't be so troublesome to see it that way, except that your reasoning is "they never played in the undisputed best league where all the best players were concentrated; instead they played in half leagues, where half the best players played".

There is enough evidence to know they were the very best of their time. Plus the two leagues faced off for the stanley cup every year so plenty of evidence exists about the strength of each league and its players.

Your criteria is unfair as it is a categorical dismissal of these two greats because of when they played.

You're talking about voting in the 7th and 8th-best players of an era and leaving out the consensus #1 and 2. That's not right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Many of us are concerned that he was nothing more than an average NHL starter after he left the Detroit dynasty.

Basically, what is the difference between Ken Dryden and Terry Sawchuk? A decade of average play?
Yeah, pretty much.

I'd also contend that Dryden's peak was better. Save for 1974 and 1975, he was the best goalie on the ice from when he started in 1971, until when he left in 1979. It's easy to say that he hid behind his strong team, but his sv% was usually comfortably on top of the league, something a lot of other "average goalies on good teams" can't say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakovsky View Post
I don't count Dryden's Vezinas as much because they were essentially Jennings trophies,
That's correct. The true measure of who was considered the greatest is the First All-Star team, since it was voted on and not automatically assigned.

Dryden won six of those.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
Seventieslord might have a lot of that data readily available from his "Consistency In Scoring" project from a little while back. If he doesn't have it or post it by the weekend I can pick some of it out from The Trail, at least for goalscoring.
I do, and I can post some stuff up. But it only goes back to 1910 so it doesn't even truly do justice to Lalonde and Taylor, who both dominated a few years before that, and especially to Taylor, who was a defenseman for the first two of those years and couldn't score as many goals as the forwards, and assists weren't recorded.

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Old
08-13-2009, 02:00 PM
  #133
Canadiens1958
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Plante/Sawchuk/Hall

Quote:
Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
More cup counting I see. I do see some argument for it in the case of goalies as that to me is the one position that can possibly be held accountable for winning or losing a cup. I assume that if Plante won the CS in 68-69 you would think that is a big plus but since Hall won it it is a pity vote. Obviously the CS voters disagreed with you & picked Hall.

A lot of people seem to be dropping Hall down this time round & I really don't see the logic. I have sawchuk/Hall 1/2 in this round & don't think either is far off Plante.

Sure Hall's team only won one cup but Plante won his cups playing on the deepest team in history whereas Chicago was never as deep in talent as Montreal & Toronto. Also, Chicago tended to overwork Hall & their other star players during the regular season as they wanted to end their first place jinx. Their first 1st place finish in history was in 67.

IMO opinion Plante was never the difference maker in his cup wins but Hall certainly was in 61. Beating Montreal in the semi-finals that year was a huge upset & Hall shutout Montreal in the 5th & 6th games to win the series.

As far as regular season awards go, Hall almost always beat out Plante for first AS even though Plante played on the better team.
A small comparison:

Jacques Plante.
http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...plantja01.html

If you look at his goals against on the 1956-60 Stanley Cup teams, you will notice that except for the 1959 playoffs his GAA was much lower in the playoffs than the regular season even though he was not facing the non-playoff teams 40% of the time. Even before or after the 5 year run he managed many playoffs where his GAA was better than the regular season and when it was not it was marginally weaker until the age of 42.

Terry Sawchuk.
http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...sawchte01.html

His first few playoff performances were great but from 1955 on you could see the fade start come playoff time except for the 1967 playoffs when he was rested having appeared in only 28 regular season games as the Leafs effectively had a three goalie rotation.

Glenn Hall.
http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/h/hallgl01.html

Other than 1961,1962,1965,1968 he faded in the playoffs sometimes significantly.

The AS voting reflects regular season play and as such Glenn Hall was recognized mainly because he played all seventy games whereas most of the other regular goalies did not. Jacques Plante had to take games off at times because he was asthmatic.

Hall won the CS in 1968 with the Blues because he led a sub .5500 team to two upset playoff victories and a surprise final performance.
His back-up were Seth Martin and a minor leaguer.

That the Blackhawks did not have their priorities straight, as you just admitted, is no one's fault but their own and should be taken into account when evaluating their objectives.

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Old
08-13-2009, 02:04 PM
  #134
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
The AS voting reflects regular season play and as such Glenn Hall was recognized mainly because he played all seventy games whereas most of the other regular goalies did not. Jacques Plante had to take games off at times because he was asthmatic.
This is an interesting thought and one I had never heard before. I can see how it would be possible. Worth thinking about a least a little, but it would be a lot stronger if you had a good link or two to back it up.

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Old
08-13-2009, 02:07 PM
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
You don't think Taylor and Lalonde were far more dominant of their era and significant to the history of hockey than Sakic, Yzerman, Messier, and Lindsay? :
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Not surprised to see Taylor and Lalonde on the outside.

It wouldn't be so troublesome to see it that way, except that your reasoning is "they never played in the undisputed best league where all the best players were concentrated; instead they played in half leagues, where half the best players played".

There is enough evidence to know they were the very best of their time. Plus the two leagues faced off for the stanley cup every year so plenty of evidence exists about the strength of each league and its players.

Your criteria is unfair as it is a categorical dismissal of these two greats because of when they played.

You're talking about voting in the 7th and 8th-best players of an era and leaving out the consensus #1 and 2. That's not right.
As I said I think I could still move a few players around. I actually have moved up Newsy since last night, lol.

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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Good post. I'm pretty sure Fetisov should be ahead of Robinson.
So am I.

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Old
08-13-2009, 02:10 PM
  #136
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I think Frank Brimsek should be in the next round. He has 8 all star team selections in the original 6 era. So 8 different times he was a top 2 goalie in the world. He's better than Tretiak, tretiak is overrated. People just like to overrated him because he was russia's goalie.

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Old
08-13-2009, 02:17 PM
  #137
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirtless Joe View Post
Thanks for pointing me in the right direction, TDMM.

I haven't been able to make much sense of this data (originally posted by seventieslord) yet, but here it is anyway:

This was the background for the consistency in goalscoring/playmaking studies:

Most times top-10 in goals:
# Name Career Top-2 Top-5 Top-10 Top-15 Top-20
41 Frank Fredrickson 1920-1931 1 3 6 6 7
45 Frank Foyston 1912-1928 0 3 6 6 7
50 Mickey MacKay 1914-1930 2 3 5 7 10
51 Fred Taylor 1907-1923 1 5 5 5 5
53 Gordon Roberts 1909-1920 1 3 5 8 8
65 Harry Hyland 1908-1918 0 2 5 7 7
73 Duke Keats 1915-1929 0 0 5 7 8
90 Tommy Dunderdale 1906-1924 0 3 4 9 11

Most times top-10 in assists
# Name Career Top-2 Top-5 Top-10 Top-15 Top-20
23 Fred Taylor 1907-1923 6 7 7 8 8
40 Frank Fredrickson 1920-1931 1 5 6 6 7
42 Mickey MacKay 1914-1930 1 4 6 6 9
45 Duke Keats 1915-1929 1 1 6 7 8
76 Eddie Gerard 1907-1923 1 4 4 6 7
84 Harry Cameron 1912-1926 1 2 4 4 5
122 Tommy Dunderdale 1906-1924 0 1 3 5 6
143 Frank Foyston 1912-1928 0 0 3 3 4

I hope this data and the players chosen to compare statistically to Taylor are relevant.
Yes, those players are at least contemporaries so they are reasonable comparisons.

As mentioned before, though, this only goes back to 1910 so it cuts off a decent portion of Lalonde and Taylor's careers. Plus Taylor was a D-man for 1910 and 1911 and had no chance to place in the goals or assists lists. (my research basically only applies to forwards, defensemen do show up but they are comparitively rare - I believe Taylor would have done very well those seasons, but no assists were recorded)

Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post
Incidentally, my top 10 not added yet (not necessarily in order)
*Milt Schmidt
*Max Bentley
*Ken Dryden
*Martin Brodeur
*Bernie Geoffrion
*Syl Apps Sr.
*Paul Coffey
*Chris Chelios
*Brad Park
*Frank Mahovlich
(A little fuzzy on the last two)
Wow, still no Taylor or Lalonde.

At least you have Dryden over Brodeur...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Yeah, I pretty much took back the post and once again have the two next to each other with nothing better than "well, Lalonde was more physical..." to put one over the other.
Lalonde was a better goal-scorer. (Taylor was no slouch)
Taylor was a better playmaker. (Lalonde was no slouch)
Taylor was a better stickhandler, skater, and generally dazzling player. (Lalonde was an average skater according to Foster Hewitt's book)
Lalonde was more colorful and charismatic. (Taylor was no slouch but The Trail specifically says he was the colorful guy who the fans came to see and who opposing fans came to watch in hopes he'd get clocked)
Lalonde was tougher. (Taylor was probably above average though)
Lalonde was a better leader. (Chastized lazy teammates. Taylor doesn't have the same kind of stuff written about him)
Taylor was more disciplined. (Lalonde hurt his team at times with bad penalties)
Taylor was probably better defensively. (because he played D, and he was a rover too, which carried defensive responsibility, but Lalonde also played some rover, and nothing is written of either's defensive play)

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Old
08-13-2009, 02:20 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
I think Frank Brimsek should be in the next round. He has 8 all star team selections in the original 6 era. So 8 different times he was a top 2 goalie in the world. He's better than Tretiak, tretiak is overrated. People just like to overrated him because he was russia's goalie.
Brimsek's competition for the all-star teams wasn't that great.

I don't see how he can make my top-10 ahead of Plante, Roy, Hasek, Dryden, Hall, Sawchuk, Brodeur, Tretiak, Benedict and Bower.

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08-13-2009, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Taylor was probably better defensively. (because he played D, and he was a rover too, which carried defensive responsibility, but Lalonde also played some rover, and nothing is written of either's defensive play)
I did read recently that the reason his production dropped in Renfrew was because he really focussed on his defence while playing there. Take that for what it's worth.

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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Brimsek's competition for the all-star teams wasn't that great.

I don't see how he can make my top-10 ahead of Plante, Roy, Hasek, Dryden, Hall, Sawchuk, Brodeur, Tretiak, Benedict and Bower.
Hrmm, we have a different view of that era. I have Brimsek, Durnan and Broda as all borderline top 10 goalies.

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08-13-2009, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Sakic should be ahead of Yzerman.

We already did rank Sakic ahead last time, and since then I haven't seen any new evidence in Yzerman's favour so it should stay the same this time.
I have always had them close, but I still give a 'peak' edge to Yzerman. (Even after reading through your great post from last year, which was excellent work btw).

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08-13-2009, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Brimsek's competition for the all-star teams wasn't that great.

I don't see how he can make my top-10 ahead of Plante, Roy, Hasek, Dryden, Hall, Sawchuk, Brodeur, Tretiak, Benedict and Bower.
What did Tretiak do that Brimsek didnt do? Wow he was the best goalie in a league full of amatuers that couldnt play goalie in the nhl. I highly doubt tretiak could even win 5 all star team selections in the nhl. Most overrated goalie ever. Brimsek easily had a better career than Bower.

He was competing against Turk Borda and Bill Durnan for those spots, two top 70 players of all times. Much better than the bush league goalies that Tretiak had for competition.

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08-13-2009, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Wow, still no Taylor or Lalonde.

At least you have Dryden over Brodeur...
I think he's referring to his top 10 that are not yet up for voting.

As for Dryden over Brodeur, he did add "not necessarily in order"..

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08-13-2009, 02:37 PM
  #143
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I think Brimsek is underrated. I thought he should have been about 10 spots higher on the last list. I had him at 62 on my original list.

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08-13-2009, 02:48 PM
  #144
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Syndicate Hockey,etc

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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Dryden should be ahead of those two!

....and those two should be ahead of Brodeur.



Yep, it's Lalonde and Taylor for me.



I would say no. Some Western players came in and did very well, but by the time of the merger, it was really a new generation. The last of the PCHA stars did ok in the NHL, like Fredrickson, Keats, and MacKay, but they did not dominate either.




...plus it was "syndicate hockey" where they would shuffle players around as needed to facilitate competitive balance.



You don't think Taylor and Lalonde were far more dominant of their era and significant to the history of hockey than Sakic, Yzerman, Messier, and Lindsay? :



Thank you. Sakic should be ahead of Yzerman.

We already did rank Sakic ahead last time, and since then I haven't seen any new evidence in Yzerman's favour so it should stay the same this time.



Do you know that all Malone had to do was win the regular season title of the NHA and then beat up Sydney and Moncton teams to win those cups? Not all pre-1914 cups are created equal.

As it applies to Taylor, chalk up 1912 and 1913 as years in which he was unable to win the cup even though he was better than any player eligible to win it. As well as the season he was suspended for not reporting to (I believe) Sam Lichtenhein's team as Sammy thought he owned Taylor.

Plus, as has already been mentioned, Taylor was clutch when he had the chance to win the cup, and played in the IHL where he was instrumental in a championship there. This is a POSITIVE, not a negative. Let's also criticize Kharlamov - he never won a cup! :
Clarify PCHA and western hockey because western hockey would have to include the Cooks, Boucher, Shore, Hainsworth, Gardiner, Irvin and a few others that were western players but not PCHA players. Trust you will admit that the aforementioned did pretty well in the 1926-27 NHL.

"Syndicate Hockey" this is where everything about the PCHA has to be taken with a grain of salt. No longer are we talking straight out competition BUT we are drifting into entertainment or loading teams for a Memorial Cup run in junior hockey today. Taylor skating backwards to entertain the crowd, etc Frank Patrick out of nowhere having a six goal game as a defenseman, the scoring at the end of the 1914-15 season where Vancouver has 4 consecutive double digit games including a 14-11 win over Victoria,, end of season games cancelled when they had no bearing on the standings."Syndicate hockey" also helped keep players salaries in check by discouraging competitive forces that drive salaries.

So how do we view the PCHA given these factors because frankly other than Cyclone Taylor the other players are not Top 100 contenders like NHA or WCHL players are? As for Cyclone Taylor other than the innovations, the remaining legacy is that of a player who followed the dollar at the expense of competition. Nothing wrong with that but it simply has to be considered.

Again, Joe Malone was on two Stanley Cup winning teams according to the rules of the day. To do so they had to win the NHA twice, a feat that was matched by the 1916 and 1917 Canadiens.

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08-13-2009, 02:52 PM
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This is an interesting thought and one I had never heard before. I can see how it would be possible. Worth thinking about a least a little, but it would be a lot stronger if you had a good link or two to back it up.
There is absolutely nothing to support this. Yep, Hall was 1st AS in 60 because he played 70 games & Plante only played 69. Give me a break.

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08-13-2009, 02:57 PM
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There is absolutely nothing to support this. Yep, Hall was 1st AS in 60 because he played 70 games & Plante only played 69. Give me a break.
Even if it were true, I'm not sure if it would be a negative to Hall. I mean, the ability to play more games is a certainly a benefit for his team, and the voters at the time seem to have agreed (assuming that's part of why they voted for him, which is not necessarily the case).

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08-13-2009, 02:58 PM
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Plante Asthma

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
This is an interesting thought and one I had never heard before. I can see how it would be possible. Worth thinking about a least a little, but it would be a lot stronger if you had a good link or two to back it up.
Plante asthma see the Red Fisher story:

http://www.canada.com/montreal/montr...9af2f98c36&p=2

The stats about other goalies missing games may be viewed in the links provided previously for Sawchuk and plante or doing the appropriate searches on hockey-reference.com

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08-13-2009, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Clarify PCHA and western hockey because western hockey would have to include the Cooks, Boucher, Shore, Hainsworth, Gardiner, Irvin and a few others that were western players but not PCHA players. Trust you will admit that the aforementioned did pretty well in the 1926-27 NHL.

"Syndicate Hockey" this is where everything about the PCHA has to be taken with a grain of salt. No longer are we talking straight out competition BUT we are drifting into entertainment or loading teams for a Memorial Cup run in junior hockey today. Taylor skating backwards to entertain the crowd, etc Frank Patrick out of nowhere having a six goal game as a defenseman, the scoring at the end of the 1914-15 season where Vancouver has 4 consecutive double digit games including a 14-11 win over Victoria,, end of season games cancelled when they had no bearing on the standings."Syndicate hockey" also helped keep players salaries in check by discouraging competitive forces that drive salaries.

So how do we view the PCHA given these factors because frankly other than Cyclone Taylor the other players are not Top 100 contenders like NHA or WCHL players are? As for Cyclone Taylor other than the innovations, the remaining legacy is that of a player who followed the dollar at the expense of competition. Nothing wrong with that but it simply has to be considered.

Again, Joe Malone was on two Stanley Cup winning teams according to the rules of the day. To do so they had to win the NHA twice, a feat that was matched by the 1916 and 1917 Canadiens.
1. Taylor's famous skating backwards goal was when he played with Ottawa.
2. The PCHA drove up salaries by being a competative league to the NHA. The reason Lalonde, Pitre and Nighbor played in the PCHA was for better pay, which in turn got them even better pay in the NHA.

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08-13-2009, 03:30 PM
  #149
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Yes........

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1. Taylor's famous skating backwards goal was when he played with Ottawa.
2. The PCHA drove up salaries by being a competative league to the NHA. The reason Lalonde, Pitre and Nighbor played in the PCHA was for better pay, which in turn got them even better pay in the NHA.
True about the goal but he would put on a show at times afterwards in the PCHA hence my entertainment point.

Lalonde 1911-12, Frank Nighbor 1913-14,1914-15, Pitre 1914-15. Make a splashy signing paying a higher salary then out east but unable to sustain the salary level and the player returns. Do that once/twice a year, grab some headlines and effectively keep your player salaries under control because the numbers are not as good as the eastern import.

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08-13-2009, 03:37 PM
  #150
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Quote:
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I have always had them close, but I still give a 'peak' edge to Yzerman. (Even after reading through your great post from last year, which was excellent work btw).
I do wish more attention was given to peak in Seventieslord's study, as I think at his best, Yzerman was on a whole other level. And many here measure peak so heavily.

Just looking at their best seasons (89 vs 01):

2001 Avalanche had 118 pts (first in the league) – 270 GF 192 GA (+78) SC Champs
1989 Red Wings had 80 pts (11th in the league) – 313 GF 316 GA (-3)

Yzerman – 155 to Gallant’s 93 (66.7%)
Sakic – 118 to Forsberg’s 89 (32.6%)

The leaderboard in 1989 was essentially Gretzky and Lemieux and the lucky beneficiaries who played directly with them.

If I may be given the benefit of discounting them, the goal and point leaders that season were Yzerman and Calgary's Nieuwendyk and Mullen.

Yzerman 65 goals to 51 (27.4%)
Sakic was outscored by Bure in goals (59 - 54)

Yzerman 155 points to 110 points: (40.9%)
Sakic was outscored by Jagr (121 - 118) and outscored Elias (96) by 22.9%

In the playoffs Sakic had 26 pts in 21 games and Yzerman had 10 pts in 6 games.

Those are margins rarely seen in the game.

Defensively, I do not think they were that different... and I'll explain why (asides from watching both players those seasons).

Selke voting in Sakic's time tends to favor two-way forwards while in Yzerman's time it heavily favored more pure defensive forwards.

Sakic was runner-up for the Selke that year, but I believe it had to do more with his league-leading +/- than his actual defensive play (which was good, make no mistake about it). Sakic was only on the penalty kill 46 seconds a game that year, which was much less than at other times in his career.

Yzerman was unlike the other ultra-high scoring forwards of his time and has always been "good" defensively as well. In 1989 particularly, he was important not only as a scorer but defensively as well. He was often double-shifted on a checking line, not for additional offense, but to check against other teams' top forwards. He was also a regular on the penalty kill -- again, not added in the waning seconds hoping for a breakaway, but to actually kill penalties.

Bob McCammon in Vancouver praised Yzerman's well rounded play back in his 155 point season after a 34 minute performance where Yzerman helped kill 47 minutes of Detroit penalties (St. Petersburg Times - Thursday, March 16, 1989).

Despite the voters largely recognizing defensive forwards over two-way forwards at the time, Yzerman still received a 1st and 2nd place vote for the Selke.

I also think Yzerman's +17 on a -3 team is more impressive than Sakic's +45 on a +78 team, especially considering Yzerman's time on a checking line.


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