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Round 2, Vote 3 (2009 update)

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Old
08-13-2009, 02:44 PM
  #151
ushvinder
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RabbinsDuck View Post
I do wish more attention was given to peak in Seventieslord's study, as I think at his best, Yzerman was on a whole other level. And many here measure peak so heavily.

Just looking at their best seasons (89 vs 01):

2001 Avalanche had 118 pts (first in the league) – 270 GF 192 GA (+78) SC Champs
1989 Red Wings had 80 pts (11th in the league) – 313 GF 316 GA (-3)

Yzerman – 155 to Gallant’s 93 (66.7%)
Sakic – 118 to Forsberg’s 89 (32.6%)

The leaderboard in 1989 was essentially Gretzky and Lemieux and the lucky beneficiaries who played directly with them.

If I may be given the benefit of discounting them, the goal and point leaders that season were Yzerman and Calgary's Nieuwendyk and Mullen.

Yzerman 65 goals to 51 (27.4%)
Sakic was outscored by Bure in goals (59 - 54)

Yzerman 155 points to 110 points: (40.9%)
Sakic was outscored by Jagr (121 - 118) and outscored Elias (96) by 22.9%

In the playoffs Sakic had 26 pts in 21 games and Yzerman had 10 pts in 6 games.

Those are margins rarely seen in the game.

Defensively, I do not think they were that different... and I'll explain why (asides from watching both players those seasons).

Selke voting in Sakic's time tends to favor two-way forwards while in Yzerman's time it heavily favored more pure defensive forwards.

Sakic was runner-up for the Selke that year, but I believe it had to do more with his league-leading +/- than his actual defensive play (which was good, make no mistake about it). Sakic was only on the power play 46 seconds a game that year, which was much less than at other times in his career.

Yzerman was unlike the other ultra-high scoring forwards of his time and has always been "good" defensively as well. In 1989 particularly, he was important not only as a scorer but defensively as well. He was often double-shifted on a checking line, not for additional offense, but to check against other teams' top forwards. He was also a regular on the penalty kill -- again, not added in the waning seconds hoping for a breakaway, but to actually kill penalties.

Bob McCammon in Vancouver praised Yzerman's well rounded play back in his 155 point season after a 34 minute performance where Yzerman helped kill 47 minutes of Detroit penalties (St. Petersburg Times - Thursday, March 16, 1989).

Despite the voters largely recognizing defensive forwards over two-way forwards at the time, Yzerman still received a 1st and 2nd place vote for the Selke.

I also think Yzerman's +17 on a -3 team is more impressive than Sakic's +45 on a +78 team, especially considering Yzerman's time on a checking line.
Now you're really starting to show a bias towards anyone that plays in a red wings uniform. It's clear as day that Sakic had a better career than him.

Comparing Gallant to Forsberg is a joke. Bure was a better goal scorer than both Yzerman and Sakic, so that is pointless to bring up. From 1995-2004, Sakic was much better offensively than Yzerman, he was in a whole different universe. Hell Sakic outpointed him in 1991, and in 1992 he scored at a higher pace. These were two of Yzerman's mega 6 years, lol.

Sakic was unstoppable in the playoff during his peak, Yzerman was good in the playoffs but not on Sakic's level.

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Old
08-13-2009, 02:46 PM
  #152
seventieslord
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
Hrmm, we have a different view of that era. I have Brimsek, Durnan and Broda as all borderline top 10 goalies.
I think they're borderline top-10 goalies too, just not top-10. I think the top-9 are a cut above. Then you have Brimsek, Durnan, Broda, Bower, and Parent. I tend to place Bower at the top of that pile and give him the 10th spot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
What did Tretiak do that Brimsek didnt do? Wow he was the best goalie in a league full of amatuers that couldnt play goalie in the nhl. I highly doubt tretiak could even win 5 all star team selections in the nhl. Most overrated goalie ever. Brimsek easily had a better career than Bower.

He was competing against Turk Borda and Bill Durnan for those spots, two top 70 players of all times. Much better than the bush league goalies that Tretiak had for competition.
Tretiak was voted the MVP of the 2nd best league in the world six times. And look at how highly regarded Kharlamov and Mikhailov in particular are regarded - he was consistently voted more valuable than these guys, and others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tommygunn View Post
I think he's referring to his top 10 that are not yet up for voting.
d'oh.

Quote:
As for Dryden over Brodeur, he did add "not necessarily in order"..
d'oh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Clarify PCHA and western hockey because western hockey would have to include the Cooks, Boucher, Shore, Hainsworth, Gardiner, Irvin and a few others that were western players but not PCHA players. Trust you will admit that the aforementioned did pretty well in the 1926-27 NHL.

"Syndicate Hockey" this is where everything about the PCHA has to be taken with a grain of salt. No longer are we talking straight out competition BUT we are drifting into entertainment or loading teams for a Memorial Cup run in junior hockey today. Taylor skating backwards to entertain the crowd, etc Frank Patrick out of nowhere having a six goal game as a defenseman, the scoring at the end of the 1914-15 season where Vancouver has 4 consecutive double digit games including a 14-11 win over Victoria,, end of season games cancelled when they had no bearing on the standings."Syndicate hockey" also helped keep players salaries in check by discouraging competitive forces that drive salaries.

So how do we view the PCHA given these factors because frankly other than Cyclone Taylor the other players are not Top 100 contenders like NHA or WCHL players are? As for Cyclone Taylor other than the innovations, the remaining legacy is that of a player who followed the dollar at the expense of competition. Nothing wrong with that but it simply has to be considered.

Again, Joe Malone was on two Stanley Cup winning teams according to the rules of the day. To do so they had to win the NHA twice, a feat that was matched by the 1916 and 1917 Canadiens.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
1. Taylor's famous skating backwards goal was when he played with Ottawa.
2. The PCHA drove up salaries by being a competative league to the NHA. The reason Lalonde, Pitre and Nighbor played in the PCHA was for better pay, which in turn got them even better pay in the NHA.

Exactly. Thanks for saving me some time.

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Old
08-13-2009, 02:58 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Now you're really starting to show a bias towards anyone that plays in a red wings uniform. It's clear as day that Sakic had a better career than him.
That's why I never registered to vote.
I do agree Sakic had a better career, but I felt peak was not looked at closely enough.

Though I'm not even saying Yzerman should be ahead of Sakic, just adding an additional perspective.
And I do not think I am too ridiculous and homertastic in suggesting Yzerman's best year was better than Sakic's best year.

Quote:
Comparing Gallant to Forsberg is a joke.
Not those years.
And the point was to further illustrate how much better that Avalanche team was.
Yzerman was by far the #1 player opposing teams attempted to contain and had little backend support.

Quote:
Bure was a better goal scorer than both Yzerman and Sakic, so that is pointless to bring up.
Sakic did have 2 more goals than Jagr that year.

Quote:
From 1995-2004, Sakic was much better offensively than Yzerman, he was in a whole different universe. Hell Sakic outpointed him in 1991, and in 1992 he scored at a higher pace. These were two of Yzerman's mega 6 years, lol.

Sakic was unstoppable in the playoff during his peak, Yzerman was good in the playoffs but not on Sakic's level.
Sakic had a better career, I was just taking some time to point out top years.


Last edited by RabbinsDuck: 08-13-2009 at 03:20 PM.
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Old
08-13-2009, 03:03 PM
  #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RabbinsDuck View Post
I do wish more attention was given to peak in Seventieslord's study, as I think at his best, Yzerman was on a whole other level. And many here measure peak so heavily.

Just looking at their best seasons (89 vs 01):

2001 Avalanche had 118 pts (first in the league) – 270 GF 192 GA (+78) SC Champs
1989 Red Wings had 80 pts (11th in the league) – 313 GF 316 GA (-3)

Yzerman – 155 to Gallant’s 93 (66.7%)
Sakic – 118 to Forsberg’s 89 (32.6%)

The leaderboard in 1989 was essentially Gretzky and Lemieux and the lucky beneficiaries who played directly with them.

If I may be given the benefit of discounting them, the goal and point leaders that season were Yzerman and Calgary's Nieuwendyk and Mullen.

Yzerman 65 goals to 51 (27.4%)
Sakic was outscored by Bure in goals (59 - 54)

Yzerman 155 points to 110 points: (40.9%)
Sakic was outscored by Jagr (121 - 118) and outscored Elias (96) by 22.9%

In the playoffs Sakic had 26 pts in 21 games and Yzerman had 10 pts in 6 games.

Those are margins rarely seen in the game.

Defensively, I do not think they were that different... and I'll explain why (asides from watching both players those seasons).

Selke voting in Sakic's time tends to favor two-way forwards while in Yzerman's time it heavily favored more pure defensive forwards.

Sakic was runner-up for the Selke that year, but I believe it had to do more with his league-leading +/- than his actual defensive play (which was good, make no mistake about it). Sakic was only on the power play 46 seconds a game that year, which was much less than at other times in his career.

Yzerman was unlike the other ultra-high scoring forwards of his time and has always been "good" defensively as well. In 1989 particularly, he was important not only as a scorer but defensively as well. He was often double-shifted on a checking line, not for additional offense, but to check against other teams' top forwards. He was also a regular on the penalty kill -- again, not added in the waning seconds hoping for a breakaway, but to actually kill penalties.

Bob McCammon in Vancouver praised Yzerman's well rounded play back in his 155 point season after a 34 minute performance where Yzerman helped kill 47 minutes of Detroit penalties (St. Petersburg Times - Thursday, March 16, 1989).

Despite the voters largely recognizing defensive forwards over two-way forwards at the time, Yzerman still received a 1st and 2nd place vote for the Selke.

I also think Yzerman's +17 on a -3 team is more impressive than Sakic's +45 on a +78 team, especially considering Yzerman's time on a checking line.
To be fair if you discount Mario's and Gretzky's linemates in 1989 you should discount Jagr in 2001.

Also if Sakic put up those numbers with only 46 seconds of PP time a game then wow I think you meant PK?

But excellent analysis Yzerman's and Sakic's one on one best seasons are almost equal to me. However discounting that I think Sakic has a clear although small advantage.

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Old
08-13-2009, 03:10 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by NOTENOUGHBREWER View Post
To be fair if you discount Mario's and Gretzky's linemates in 1989 you should discount Jagr in 2001.

Also if Sakic put up those numbers with only 46 seconds of PP time a game then wow I think you meant PK?

But excellent analysis Yzerman's and Sakic's one on one best seasons are almost equal to me. However discounting that I think Sakic has a clear although small advantage.
Heh... oops!

Though Jagr did not have Lemieux for half of the season.


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Old
08-13-2009, 04:18 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Brimsek's competition for the all-star teams wasn't that great.

I don't see how he can make my top-10 ahead of Plante, Roy, Hasek, Dryden, Hall, Sawchuk, Brodeur, Tretiak, Benedict and Bower.
Actually, Brimsek is IMO in a dogfight for 9th or 10th best goalie with three other guys whose names starts by B. I do have another guy firmly entrenched at 8th, though.

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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post

Wow, still no Taylor or Lalonde.
Well, they're available for voting...
So they can't be amongst Top-10 not available for voting.

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Old
08-13-2009, 04:22 PM
  #157
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C-1958 : Malone screams Brett Hull.

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Old
08-13-2009, 04:29 PM
  #158
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RabbinsDuck View Post
I do wish more attention was given to peak in Seventieslord's study, as I think at his best, Yzerman was on a whole other level. And many here measure peak so heavily.
.
In fairness, the study does measure peak to some extent, as it shows us how often the player was reaching the top-2 or top-5 of either offensive category.

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08-13-2009, 05:36 PM
  #159
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Here's my plus-minus based analysis of the players up for voting who starred in the NHL since 1968. I've added some special teams numbers as well.

These don't include playoffs, intangibles, and others, and can't be taken as the final word, but can hopefully provide some information in certain areas.

Stat Glossary:

$ESGF/G - even-strength goals for per game, adjusted for scoring level. Higher is better.
$ESGA/G - even-strength goals against per game, adjusted for scoring level. Lower is better.
R-ON - Player's even-strength on-ice goal ratio (ESGF/ESGA). Should be higher than R-OFF.
R-OFF - Player's even-strength off-ice goal ratio (ESGF/ESGA).
XEV+/- - Players expected EV+/-, based on off-ice results.
EV+/- - Even-strength plus-minus, adjusted for scoring level.
AEV+/- - Adjusted even-strength plus-minus. =(EV+/-) - (XEV+/-). If you look at just one number, make it this one.
/82 - Adjusted even-strength plus-minus per season.
SH% - . Percentage of team's PPGA the player was on the ice for. Measures a players role in killing penalties, but not effectiveness.
PP% - Percentage of team's PPGF the player was on the ice for. Measures a players role on the power play, but not effectiveness.
$PPP - Scoring-adjusted power play points per game.



Bobby Clarke
Player Year Seasons $ESGF/G $ESGA/G R-ON R-OFF XEV+/- EV+/- AEV+/- /82 SH% PP% $PPP/G
Bobby Clarke 70-71 1.99 0.71 0.61 1.16 0.86 -11 16 27 14 42% 50% 0.27
Bobby Clarke 72-78 6.86 1.00 0.43 2.31 1.22 56 320 264 38 42% 71% 0.48
Bobby Clarke 79-84 5.64 0.77 0.50 1.55 1.30 54 127 73 13 36% 47% 0.22
Bobby Clarke 70-84 14.49 0.87 0.48 1.81 1.19 99 464 365 25 40% 59% 0.35

Bobby Clarke has a terrific seven-year peak/prime. He is in my estimation almost certainly the greatest defensive forward ever. Although he wasn't a great even-strength scorer, he just didn't get scored on. He was also a fine power play producer and a great penalty killer. He'll be in my top two in the next vote.

The biggest knock against him may be that his scoring just wasn't at a #1-centre level past the age of 28, but in his prime he was great.

Jaromir Jagr
Player Year Seasons $ESGF/G $ESGA/G R-ON R-OFF XEV+/- EV+/- AEV+/- /82 SH% PP% $PPP/G
Jaromir Jagr 91-94 3.79 1.04 0.81 1.28 1.07 13 71 59 15 3% 35% 0.21
Jaromir Jagr 95-01 6.45 1.50 1.01 1.50 0.92 -37 264 301 47 16% 80% 0.58
Jaromir Jagr 02-04 2.70 1.13 1.06 1.06 0.89 -19 14 33 12 5% 82% 0.45
Jaromir Jagr 06-08 3.00 1.09 0.68 1.61 0.95 -8 102 109 36 1% 73% 0.48
Jaromir Jagr 91-08 15.94 1.25 0.91 1.38 0.95 -51 451 502 32 8% 68% 0.48

Jagr was an all-time great even-strength scorer. I said last time he wasn't as great a power play scorer as you might think, but that undersold him. While he was a better even-strength scorer, he's similar to Joe Sakic in power play effectiveness, and Sakic was probably at his best on the power play.

Also, he was basically Mario Lemieux at even strength.

Even-strength points per game, adjusted to a scoring level of 200 ESG/season.

Jaromir Jagr, 1995-2001 - 1.24
Mario Lemieux, 1988-1997 - 1.21

Of course Mario was far better on special teams.

He doesn't offer anything outside of scoring, but there's a lot of that. Think Mario Lemieux at even-strength plus Joe Sakic on the power play.

Bryan Trottier
Player Year Seasons $ESGF/G $ESGA/G R-ON R-OFF XEV+/- EV+/- AEV+/- /82 SH% PP% $PPP/G
Bryan Trottier 76-77 1.95 0.83 0.47 1.77 1.39 24 58 34 17 6% 65% 0.47
Bryan Trottier 78-82 4.80 1.22 0.58 2.13 1.25 55 255 201 42 23% 73% 0.48
Bryan Trottier 83-88 5.64 0.97 0.66 1.46 1.12 29 141 112 20 30% 59% 0.31
Bryan Trottier 89-94 3.58 0.57 0.73 0.78 1.02 3 -46 -49 -14 40% 15% 0.08
Bryan Trottier 76-94 15.96 0.94 0.63 1.50 1.17 111 407 297 19 27% 54% 0.33

Trottier and Bossy are difficult to analyze and separate with plus-minus data because they almost always played together. The most I can conclude is that they were pretty awesome together, and after that I'll defer to Hockey Outsider and others to separate them.

I do think that the data suggests that Trottier, while great defensively, was not Bobby Clarke's equal.

Mike Bossy
Player Year Seasons $ESGF/G $ESGA/G R-ON R-OFF XEV+/- EV+/- AEV+/- /82 SH% PP% $PPP/G
Mike Bossy 78 0.91 0.96 0.49 1.96 1.50 15 35 20 22 0% 88% 0.69
Mike Bossy 79-86 7.70 1.13 0.60 1.89 1.16 57 337 280 36 5% 73% 0.48
Mike Bossy 87 0.79 0.75 0.78 0.96 1.00 0 -2 -2 -3 5% 80% 0.47
Mike Bossy 78-87 9.40 1.08 0.60 1.80 1.17 73 370 297 32 5% 75% 0.50

Bossy's career is pretty consistent, so I just separated his first and last season out, as they were a little weaker.

Mark Messier
Player Year Seasons $ESGF/G $ESGA/G R-ON R-OFF XEV+/- EV+/- AEV+/- /82 SH% PP% $PPP/G
Mark Messier 80-81 1.84 0.62 0.79 0.79 1.06 4 -24 -29 -16 25% 17% 0.09
Mark Messier 82-88 6.25 1.00 0.76 1.31 2.00 119 121 1 0 40% 52% 0.30
Mark Messier 89-97 8.06 1.01 0.82 1.22 1.07 27 123 96 12 47% 66% 0.42
Mark Messier 98-04 5.90 0.73 0.90 0.81 0.93 -20 -81 -61 -10 40% 58% 0.31
Mark Messier 80-04 22.05 0.90 0.82 1.09 1.13 130 138 8 0 41% 56% 0.33

Messier is a tough player to evaluate. His career adjusted plus-minus is barely positive, for one. That's somewhat deceiving, as he had an unusually large number of average to poor seasons at the end of his career, in which he was playing a larger role than he deserved based on reputation. Also, his Edmonton years are difficult to evaluate because Gretzky was his teammate, so on/off ice analysis doesn't work.

Taking his New York years as a measure of his talent, he was a good but not dominant player at even-strength. He was good on the power play, but maybe the weakest of this group of players. He played a major role on the penalty kill for his whole career, and was at least offensively dangerous.

He also stepped it up in the playoffs, to the point that it seems likely that he coasted for much of the regular season. That also makes it difficult to evaluate him. If it weren't for this factor, I'd have him at or near the bottom of this vote. He still won't be in my top 8.

Hart voting seems to be his major selling point, along with the playoffs. I don't buy it that much. The 1990 Hart has been discussed, and the 1992 Hart looks to me like the sportswriters just voted on narrative and gave him big points for having just joined the team, rather than being the result of an informed evaluation.

Steve Yzerman

Player Year Seasons $ESGF/G $ESGA/G R-ON R-OFF XEV+/- EV+/- AEV+/- /82 SH% PP% $PPP/G
Steve Yzerman 84-87 3.64 0.80 0.90 0.89 0.83 -33 -29 3 1 9% 73% 0.36
Steve Yzerman 88-94 6.47 1.20 1.03 1.17 1.08 33 93 60 9 47% 75% 0.40
Steve Yzerman 95-02 7.08 0.95 0.70 1.35 1.24 71 142 71 10 42% 69% 0.44
Steve Yzerman 03-06 1.85 0.74 0.56 1.32 1.34 21 28 7 4 23% 34% 0.23
Steve Yzerman 84-06 19.03 0.99 0.84 1.18 1.10 92 233 141 7 35% 69% 0.39

Yzerman is similar to Messier - a long-career, Stanley Cup winning captain whose peak seems to be lacking compared to other players in this group. During his offensive peak, there were a ton of goals scored against when he was on the ice. That's likely a combination of high ice time and an offensive-oriented style, similar to Gretzky and Lemieux. Unlike Gretzky and Lemieux, Yzerman didn't score 2+ points per game, so his results were less impressive than the raw points suggest.

The change in his stats in 1995 is striking, and fits perfectly with his well-documented change in play. However, the net results don't change that much - he simply traded a lot of offense off for defense, and his ice time dropped as the team depth improved.

Like Messier, his power play results are unimpressive among this group, and like Messier, he was always a major penalty killer on his team. Like Messier, I'll have him close to the bottom of this vote.

Joe Sakic

Player Year Seasons $ESGF/G $ESGA/G R-ON R-OFF XEV+/- EV+/- AEV+/- /82 SH% PP% $PPP/G
Joe Sakic 89-94 5.67 0.88 1.02 0.86 0.74 -92 -65 26 5 0.30 82% 0.40
Joe Sakic 95-01 6.17 1.16 0.80 1.45 1.20 65 182 117 19 0.26 84% 0.58
Joe Sakic 02-09 5.41 1.00 0.83 1.21 1.11 30 77 48 9 0.19 70% 0.45
Joe Sakic 89-09 17.25 1.02 0.88 1.16 1.00 3 194 191 11 0.25 79% 0.48

Sakic is often compared to Yzerman. I have him above Yzerman for a couple of reasons.

1. He had a better peak, as his offensive and defensive peaks coincided. Also, his offensive peak was every bit as Yzerman's - don't let the lower scoring context fool you.

2. He was significantly better on the power play (Yzerman played more on the PK, but I think Sakic's edge is bigger).

Larry Robinson

Player Year Seasons $ESGF/G $ESGA/G R-ON R-OFF XEV+/- EV+/- AEV+/- /82 SH% PP% $PPP/G
Larry Robinson 73-76 3.46 1.21 0.71 1.69 1.52 80 140 60 17 31% 15% 0.06
Larry Robinson 77-82 5.40 1.67 0.86 1.93 1.60 184 356 172 32 59% 65% 0.30
Larry Robinson 83-89 6.20 1.16 0.82 1.41 1.08 29 170 142 23 42% 63% 0.28
Larry Robinson 90-92 2.28 1.04 0.87 1.19 1.13 15 30 15 7 40% 27% 0.10
Larry Robinson 73-92 17.34 1.31 0.82 1.60 1.34 307 696 389 22 45% 49% 0.36

Larry Robinson is probably one of the most valuable player at even-strength ever. He's not the all-time plus-minus lead for nothing. Of course he played on great teams and that helped a lot, but his results were significantly better than the rest of his team for his whole career.

He wasn't a power play presence to the degree that the defensemen already on the list and up for voting have been, and players like Lidstrom, Potvin, and Kelly make up a ton of ground there.


Last edited by overpass: 08-13-2009 at 05:42 PM.
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Old
08-13-2009, 05:48 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Again, Joe Malone was on two Stanley Cup winning teams according to the rules of the day. To do so they had to win the NHA twice, a feat that was matched by the 1916 and 1917 Canadiens.
In that second Cup winning year the Bulldogs lost a 3 game series to the PCHA champ, and only the technicality of Victoria not issuing a formal challenge left them as the Cup holders.

The 6 game series between the PCHA and NHA All-stars was won 4 games to 2 by the PCHA as well that year.

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08-13-2009, 05:57 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by RabbinsDuck View Post
I do wish more attention was given to peak in Seventieslord's study, as I think at his best, Yzerman was on a whole other level. And many here measure peak so heavily.

Just looking at their best seasons (89 vs 01):

2001 Avalanche had 118 pts (first in the league) – 270 GF 192 GA (+78) SC Champs
1989 Red Wings had 80 pts (11th in the league) – 313 GF 316 GA (-3)

Yzerman – 155 to Gallant’s 93 (66.7%)
Sakic – 118 to Forsberg’s 89 (32.6%)

The leaderboard in 1989 was essentially Gretzky and Lemieux and the lucky beneficiaries who played directly with them.

If I may be given the benefit of discounting them, the goal and point leaders that season were Yzerman and Calgary's Nieuwendyk and Mullen.

Yzerman 65 goals to 51 (27.4%)
Sakic was outscored by Bure in goals (59 - 54)

Yzerman 155 points to 110 points: (40.9%)
Sakic was outscored by Jagr (121 - 118) and outscored Elias (96) by 22.9%

In the playoffs Sakic had 26 pts in 21 games and Yzerman had 10 pts in 6 games.

Those are margins rarely seen in the game.

Defensively, I do not think they were that different... and I'll explain why (asides from watching both players those seasons).

Selke voting in Sakic's time tends to favor two-way forwards while in Yzerman's time it heavily favored more pure defensive forwards.

Sakic was runner-up for the Selke that year, but I believe it had to do more with his league-leading +/- than his actual defensive play (which was good, make no mistake about it). Sakic was only on the penalty kill 46 seconds a game that year, which was much less than at other times in his career.

Yzerman was unlike the other ultra-high scoring forwards of his time and has always been "good" defensively as well. In 1989 particularly, he was important not only as a scorer but defensively as well. He was often double-shifted on a checking line, not for additional offense, but to check against other teams' top forwards. He was also a regular on the penalty kill -- again, not added in the waning seconds hoping for a breakaway, but to actually kill penalties.

Bob McCammon in Vancouver praised Yzerman's well rounded play back in his 155 point season after a 34 minute performance where Yzerman helped kill 47 minutes of Detroit penalties (St. Petersburg Times - Thursday, March 16, 1989).

Despite the voters largely recognizing defensive forwards over two-way forwards at the time, Yzerman still received a 1st and 2nd place vote for the Selke.

I also think Yzerman's +17 on a -3 team is more impressive than Sakic's +45 on a +78 team, especially considering Yzerman's time on a checking line.
Yzerman has the best one regular season between them. Sakic has the 2nd best regular season. seventies covered most other things, but Sakic has the best 2 playoff performances between the two of them, and it isn't even close in my mind.

He provided every bit the leadership that Yzerman did on their Cup runs, while putting up many more goals and points in the process, especially in 1996.

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08-13-2009, 06:11 PM
  #162
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"Syndicate Hockey" this is where everything about the PCHA has to be taken with a grain of salt. No longer are we talking straight out competition BUT we are drifting into entertainment or loading teams for a Memorial Cup run in junior hockey today. Taylor skating backwards to entertain the crowd, etc Frank Patrick out of nowhere having a six goal game as a defenseman, the scoring at the end of the 1914-15 season where Vancouver has 4 consecutive double digit games including a 14-11 win over Victoria,, end of season games cancelled when they had no bearing on the standings."Syndicate hockey" also helped keep players salaries in check by discouraging competitive forces that drive salaries.
I think you're reading far too much into the structure of the league. You sound like you're making it out to be some Harlem Globetrotters-like spectacle, when it was most definitely a first-rate hockey league, who's best teams were able to compete with the NHA's best teams for the Stanley Cup. I don't see how any of those little tidbits you posted should cast Taylor's, or any other PCHA players', careers in a different light. If anything, player shuffling for purposes of keeping the teams on a fairly even keel should make it harder to dominate like Taylor did.

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So how do we view the PCHA given these factors because frankly other than Cyclone Taylor the other players are not Top 100 contenders like NHA or WCHL players are? As for Cyclone Taylor other than the innovations, the remaining legacy is that of a player who followed the dollar at the expense of competition. Nothing wrong with that but it simply has to be considered.
I agree that we must consider that Taylor wasn't always going head-to-head with the best of the best, but this same logic applies to NHA players as well. Taylor won 5 PCHA scoring titles, but it has to be realised that he didn't beat out Lalonde or Malone for them. Likewise, Malone didn't have Taylor fighting with him for the scoring lead either. Seventieslord's project did a great job of helping to address this problem.

---

I'm glad to see some people coming to the defense of Glenn Hall. Having him (or Sawchuk) outside of the top-30 is a mistake IMO. Being voted one of the top two goalies in the league 11 times (against pretty good competition) surely at least gets you into the top-30. Yes the playoff record is hit-and-miss, but this is hardly Joe Thornton or Marcel Dionne. Hall has a Smythe, and would have been a front runner for another had it existed. Every goalie has had a playoff or two that isn't up to par.

Almost everybody who grew up in the 50's and 60's will swear to this day that Terry Sawchuk is the greatest goalie ever. The numbers and awards may not always support this, and maybe the 103 shutouts record was taken for more than its worth, but going as far as to have him out of the top-30 might be taking it too far in the other direction. Plante, Sawchuk, and Hall have always been seen as the Big 3 of goaltending in the pre-expansion era, and there have always been arguments in favour of all three. A potential 20-place gap between Plante and the other two seems too large.

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08-13-2009, 06:14 PM
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It's misleading in the sense that "Hall was competiting against Sawchuk and Plante and came out ahead" makes it sound like he, at his best, was better than them at their bests. When, in fact, he won 4/7 awards when they were not the guys generally getting the other All-Star nods.

I wasn't trying to imply that Worsley, Bower, and lesser versions of Plante and Sawchuk were chopped liver, but it isn't the all-time great competition that some call it.
What's wrong with making it sound like Hall was as good as Sawchuk or Plante at their peaks? What exactly puts Hall below those guys?

If you put any value on First Team All-Stars, then the results suggest that the voters saw Hall on the same level. Pick any 5 consecutive years that you want to represent Jacques Plante's peak. No matter which one you pick, Hall was First Team goalie just as many times as Plante was, if not more.

During the Detroit dynasty years, Sawchuk was voted the league's best 3 times in 5 years, beaten out twice by Harry Lumley, a good goalie but no top 100 guy. From 1956-1964, an 8 season stretch, the only guys who ever took All-Star spots ahead of Hall were Plante, Sawchuk and Bower.

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08-13-2009, 06:23 PM
  #164
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And of Course

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In that second Cup winning year the Bulldogs lost a 3 game series to the PCHA champ, and only the technicality of Victoria not issuing a formal challenge left them as the Cup holders.

The 6 game series between the PCHA and NHA All-stars was won 4 games to 2 by the PCHA as well that year.
Common knowledge.

And of course this is the fault of Joe Malone and the Quebec Bulldogs.

Exhibition series are played like exhibition series. Quebec traveled out west and lost the two games played under PCHA seven man rules while winning the game played under NHA rules - six man hockey.

The seven man game was a distinct advantage to the PCHA yet one that they failed to exploit winning only three Stanley Cups - 1915,1917,1925 losing in 1921 and 1923 when they had the PCHA rules and home ice advandtage. A PCHA team NEVER won a Stanley Cup in the east under eastern rules or without home ice advantage

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08-13-2009, 06:24 PM
  #165
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What's wrong with making it sound like Hall was as good as Sawchuk or Plante at their peaks? What exactly puts Hall below those guys?

If you put any value on First Team All-Stars, then the results suggest that the voters saw Hall on the same level. Pick any 5 consecutive years that you want to represent Jacques Plante's peak. No matter which one you pick, Hall was First Team goalie just as many times as Plante was, if not more.

During the Detroit dynasty years, Sawchuk was voted the league's best 3 times in 5 years, beaten out twice by Harry Lumley, a good goalie but no top 100 guy. From 1956-1964, an 8 season stretch, the only guys who ever took All-Star spots ahead of Hall were Plante, Sawchuk and Bower.
His playoff record?

Despite whatever statistics and arguments I continually see defending Hall's playoffs, I watched him play many times, and felt he cost the Blackhawks games in the playoffs. Oh he had a playoff run or two that was spectacular, but for the most part, he was a different goalie in the playoffs.

Many "He should have had that" Moments.

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08-13-2009, 06:32 PM
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His playoff record?

Despite whatever statistics and arguments I continually see defending Hall's playoffs, I watched him play many times, and felt he cost the Blackhawks games in the playoffs. Oh he had a playoff run or two that was spectacular, but for the most part, he was a different goalie in the playoffs.

Many "He should have had that" Moments.
I agree with you about his playoffs, I was talking about regular season play hence the referring to All-Star voting. Sorry, I should have made that more clear. That's a legitimate question mark for Hall, but the playoffs is pretty much his only area of weakness as his regular season record is very strong. To me it's enough to put him ahead of Sawchuk, although that doesn't seem to be the majority opinion here.

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08-13-2009, 06:33 PM
  #167
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I think you're reading far too much into the structure of the league. You sound like you're making it out to be some Harlem Globetrotters-like spectacle, when it was most definitely a first-rate hockey league, who's best teams were able to compete with the NHA's best teams for the Stanley Cup. I don't see how any of those little tidbits you posted should cast Taylor's, or any other PCHA players', careers in a different light. If anything, player shuffling for purposes of keeping the teams on a fairly even keel should make it harder to dominate like Taylor did.



I agree that we must consider that Taylor wasn't always going head-to-head with the best of the best, but this same logic applies to NHA players as well. Taylor won 5 PCHA scoring titles, but it has to be realised that he didn't beat out Lalonde or Malone for them. Likewise, Malone didn't have Taylor fighting with him for the scoring lead either. Seventieslord's project did a great job of helping to address this problem.

---

I'm glad to see some people coming to the defense of Glenn Hall. Having him (or Sawchuk) outside of the top-30 is a mistake IMO. Being voted one of the top two goalies in the league 11 times (against pretty good competition) surely at least gets you into the top-30. Yes the playoff record is hit-and-miss, but this is hardly Joe Thornton or Marcel Dionne. Hall has a Smythe, and would have been a front runner for another had it existed. Every goalie has had a playoff or two that isn't up to par.

Almost everybody who grew up in the 50's and 60's will swear to this day that Terry Sawchuk is the greatest goalie ever. The numbers and awards may not always support this, and maybe the 103 shutouts record was taken for more than its worth, but going as far as to have him out of the top-30 might be taking it too far in the other direction. Plante, Sawchuk, and Hall have always been seen as the Big 3 of goaltending in the pre-expansion era, and there have always been arguments in favour of all three. A potential 20-place gap between Plante and the other two seems too large.
I agree.

I actually had Glenn Hall at 18 on my original list. He'll be #2 in this round for me.
I can see Plante ahead of Hall & Sawchuk, but as you said, not by as much as it may turn out here.

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08-13-2009, 06:39 PM
  #168
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What's wrong with making it sound like Hall was as good as Sawchuk or Plante at their peaks? What exactly puts Hall below those guys?

If you put any value on First Team All-Stars, then the results suggest that the voters saw Hall on the same level. Pick any 5 consecutive years that you want to represent Jacques Plante's peak. No matter which one you pick, Hall was First Team goalie just as many times as Plante was, if not more.

During the Detroit dynasty years, Sawchuk was voted the league's best 3 times in 5 years, beaten out twice by Harry Lumley, a good goalie but no top 100 guy. From 1956-1964, an 8 season stretch, the only guys who ever took All-Star spots ahead of Hall were Plante, Sawchuk and Bower.
Perhaps I'm putting too much into the fact that I have a couple goalies not yet up for voting ahead of Hall. I do think the Next 5 after the Big 3 are pretty close, and Hall is certainly one of them.

I do know I put more emphasis on playoff performances than the majority of people on this project.

I see a "better player" as one who does a better job at helping his team win, not necessarily accumulate stats and awards. I've read mixed things about Hall in the playoffs, from posters here who saw him play and from other sources. People who saw all three play in their primes - many will say Sawchuk is the best they ever saw. Many will saw Plante. Hall? I just don't hear or read "Hall is the best I've ever seen." I see "Hall is the best because he won the most awards."

And finally, of all the links Canadiens1958 posted, one thing about Hall actually doesn't sit right with me - that he says he avoided training camp because he didn't need it personally. That doesn't sound like someone doing everything possible to help his team win - which is the goal of the sport.

Believe me, the number of people who have Hall as their #6 or #7 goalie is more than you probably think.


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08-13-2009, 06:41 PM
  #169
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I think you're reading far too much into the structure of the league. You sound like you're making it out to be some Harlem Globetrotters-like spectacle, when it was most definitely a first-rate hockey league, who's best teams were able to compete with the NHA's best teams for the Stanley Cup. I don't see how any of those little tidbits you posted should cast Taylor's, or any other PCHA players', careers in a different light. If anything, player shuffling for purposes of keeping the teams on a fairly even keel should make it harder to dominate like Taylor did.



I agree that we must consider that Taylor wasn't always going head-to-head with the best of the best, but this same logic applies to NHA players as well. Taylor won 5 PCHA scoring titles, but it has to be realised that he didn't beat out Lalonde or Malone for them. Likewise, Malone didn't have Taylor fighting with him for the scoring lead either. Seventieslord's project did a great job of helping to address this problem.

---

I'm glad to see some people coming to the defense of Glenn Hall. Having him (or Sawchuk) outside of the top-30 is a mistake IMO. Being voted one of the top two goalies in the league 11 times (against pretty good competition) surely at least gets you into the top-30. Yes the playoff record is hit-and-miss, but this is hardly Joe Thornton or Marcel Dionne. Hall has a Smythe, and would have been a front runner for another had it existed. Every goalie has had a playoff or two that isn't up to par.

Almost everybody who grew up in the 50's and 60's will swear to this day that Terry Sawchuk is the greatest goalie ever. The numbers and awards may not always support this, and maybe the 103 shutouts record was taken for more than its worth, but going as far as to have him out of the top-30 might be taking it too far in the other direction. Plante, Sawchuk, and Hall have always been seen as the Big 3 of goaltending in the pre-expansion era, and there have always been arguments in favour of all three. A potential 20-place gap between Plante and the other two seems too large.
Actually player shuffling would help Taylor since he was never shuffled but maintained the stability necessary for team play. The shuffling of the others made team play harder for them

The east had more than Lalonde and Malone. A few NHA star players like Lalonde, Hyland, Pitre and Nighbour plus others made cameo appearances out west in the PCHA but returned.The aforementionned four plus the likes of Skene Ronan,Tommy Smith,Gordon Roberts,Punch Broadbent and others made eastern scoring very competitive, precluding one player from dominating.

As for the relative strength of the two leagues I would welcome an explanation as to why the PCHA was never able to win a Stanley Cup against the NHA/NHL when they did not have the rules and home ice advantage.

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08-13-2009, 06:48 PM
  #170
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Perhaps I'm putting too much into the fact that I have a couple goalies not yet up for voting ahead of Hall. I do think the Next 5 after the Big 3 are pretty close.

I do know I put more emphasis on playoff performances than the majority of people on this project.

I see a "better player" as one who does a better job at helping his team win, not necessarily accumulate stats and awards. I've read mixed things about Hall in the playoffs, from posters here who saw him play and from other sources. People who saw all three play in their primes - many will say Sawchuk is the best they ever saw. Many will saw Plante. Hall? I just don't hear or read "Hall is the best I've ever seen." I see "Hall is the best because he won the most awards."

And finally, of all the links Canadiens1958 posted, one thing about Hall actually doesn't sit right with me - that he says he avoided training camp because he didn't need it personally. That doesn't sound like someone doing everything possible to help his team win - which is the goal of the sport.

Believe me, the number of people who have Hall as their #6 or #7 goalie is more than you probably think.
Maybe he felt he was going to play every game so skipping training camp might help him (and the team) in the long run.

I have a feeling back in those days there were a few of star players that avoided training camp even if they were there.

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08-13-2009, 06:51 PM
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Perhaps I'm putting too much into the fact that I have a couple goalies not yet up for voting ahead of Hall. I do think the Next 5 after the Big 3 are pretty close, and Hall is certainly one of them.

I do know I put more emphasis on playoff performances than the majority of people on this project.

I see a "better player" as one who does a better job at helping his team win, not necessarily accumulate stats and awards. I've read mixed things about Hall in the playoffs, from posters here who saw him play and from other sources. People who saw all three play in their primes - many will say Sawchuk is the best they ever saw. Many will saw Plante. Hall? I just don't hear or read "Hall is the best I've ever seen." I see "Hall is the best because he won the most awards."

And finally, of all the links Canadiens1958 posted, one thing about Hall actually doesn't sit right with me - that he says he avoided training camp because he didn't need it personally. That doesn't sound like someone doing everything possible to help his team win - which is the goal of the sport.

Believe me, the number of people who have Hall as their #6 or #7 goalie is more than you probably think.
I will say it. "Hall is one of the best goalies I have ever seen". You & C1958 are making too big a deal about Hall avoiding training camp. God, the man never missed a game (regular season & playoffs) for over seven years. That sure sounds like a man who was willing to sacrifice his body for the team. Don't fall for those straws C1958 grasps at in trying to prove a point. I have him close with Plante & Sawchuk. In fact' I am starting to think he should be rated higher. He invented the butterfly & was incredibley athletic for a goalie of his era. If you forget about dynasty cup wins & go on pure ability, Hall is your man.

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08-13-2009, 07:15 PM
  #172
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I agree with you about his playoffs, I was talking about regular season play hence the referring to All-Star voting. Sorry, I should have made that more clear. That's a legitimate question mark for Hall, but the playoffs is pretty much his only area of weakness as his regular season record is very strong. To me it's enough to put him ahead of Sawchuk, although that doesn't seem to be the majority opinion here.
As TheDevilMadeMe says, some of us place great emphasis on playoff performance. In fact, it is often equally important to regular season performance.

In comparison.

If Marcel Dionne's playoff efforts were not so poor, he would likely sit much higher on the list. He has one of the best regular season resume's of any player.

Note, I said "efforts", not "results", as there have been several great players who never won a cup, but did not have the team to back them, but put in superman efforts.

In that regard, Hall is similar to Dionne in the playoffs.

Granted, several different posters will be here in moments as I say this defending Hall's playoffs, I watched him play many times, and felt he cost the Blackhawks games in the playoffs. Oh he had a playoff run or two that was spectacular, but for the most part, he was a different goalie in the playoffs.

Many "He should have had that" Moments.

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08-13-2009, 07:17 PM
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... Just a quick question.

What makes Sawchuck's prime so special that he's allegedly a Top-30 player, while Alec Connel was probably left out of all lists?

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08-13-2009, 08:04 PM
  #174
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Plante / Sawchuk / Hall and others

Going to look at the games played during the regular season by the various goalies during the last pahse of the O6 era starting with the 1955-56 season and running thru the 1966-67 season. Other than Sawchuk no Boston goalies will ne considered since there were too many of them and they had no impact, also goalies that had brief or introductory , four seasons or less are not included - Crozier, Giacomin,Chadwick,Lumleyetc.

REGULAR SEASON GAMES PLAYED
H = HALL, P = PLANTE, S = SAWCHUK, B =BOWER, W=WORSLEY. 1955-56 = 1956,ETC.COLUMN = GAMES PLAYED THAT SEASON, X = NOT IN LEAGUE

SEA

1956.............70H.........64P..........68S..... ....... X B............70W
1957.............70...........61............34.... ..........2...............68
1958.............70...........57............70.... ..........X...............37
1959.............70...........67............67.... .........39.............. 67
1960.............70...........69............58.... .........66...............39
1961.............70...........40............37.... .........58...............59
1962.............70...........70............43.... .........59...............60
1963.............66...........56............48.... .........42...............67
1964.............65...........65............53.... .........51.................8
1965.............41...........33............36.... .........34...............19
1966.............64.............X............27... ..........35...............51
1967.............32.............X............28... ..........27...............18

Other than Glenn Hall the other regular goalies rarely played the full seventy game schedule. While the 502 consecutive game streak starting in 1955 and ending in 1962 is impressive the question is whether it was productive for Glenn Hall and for the team especially the Chicago Blackhawks.

All Star Selections
For the most part between 1955 and 1967 the 1st and 2nd team All Star goalie reflected which two goalies were the best from amongst those who played the greatest number of games. For the most part a goalie who played less than sixty games had to have real outstanding numbers to get All Star consideration.

Trophies
Vezina in those days went to the goalie who played the greatest number of games on the team that allowed the fewest number of goals. Usually this was Jacques Plante BUT the question remains how important was the Vezina to the player and the team?

Last game of the 1959-60 season Montreal is playing in New York while Chicago is in Boston. No impact on the standings BUT the Canadiens and the Blackhawks or Plante and Hall have each allowed 175 goals, each goalie playing the full 69 games. Also the Bobby Hull/Blackhawks and Bronco Horvath/Bruins are going head to head for the scoring championship. The playoffs start the in a few days.

Toe Blake, the Canadiens coach rests Jacques Plante for the playoffs and plays Charlie Hodge. The Stanley Cup is more important than the Vezina. Jacques Plante does not complain, appreciates the rest and responds with three shutouts and his best playoff performance,as the Canadiens sweep the Hawks and Leafs en route to the Stanley Cup.

The ultimate irony is that while the Bruins and the Hawks tied 5-5 with Bobby Hull winning the scoring title, the Canadiens lost 3-1 to the Rangers, so Jacques Plante won the Vezina as well.

Finally it is interesting that in 1965 when Glenn Hall had his lowest Games Played total he responded with one of his best post 1961 playoff performances. So some rest for a goalie at the expense of individual honours has its rewards.


Last edited by Canadiens1958: 08-13-2009 at 08:08 PM. Reason: columns
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08-13-2009, 08:25 PM
  #175
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George Hainsworth

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... Just a quick question.

What makes Sawchuck's prime so special that he's allegedly a Top-30 player, while Alec Connel was probably left out of all lists?
Asking the same question about George Hainsworth who I rate very highly.

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