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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Round 2, Vote 3 (2009 update)

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Old
08-16-2009, 04:43 AM
  #201
seventieslord
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Quote:
Schmidt
Apps
Max Bentley
Cook
Doug bentley
Charlie Conacher
Jackson
Bathgate
Geoffrion
Park
Pappy, how Can the Bentleys be sandwiching Cook like this? Cook dominated his generation to a degree not even approached by the Bentleys and he brought more non-offense skills to the table than either of them.

I see little separating Busher Jackson from Syd Howe offensively, and Howe has a lot of other minor edges on Jackson. I readily admit Howe, a player I'm a big supporter of, is a marginal top-100 selection. You've got Jackson up there around 25th. Did Jackson dominate his era to the degree of a Newsy Lalonde? Cyclone Taylor? Marcel Dionne? Joe Malone? Frank Mahovlich? Frank Nighbor? Aurel Joliat?

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Old
08-16-2009, 05:12 AM
  #202
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For fun, my top-10 not up for voting:

Bill Cook
Brad Park
Ken Dryden
Frank Nighbor
Syl Apps
Milt Schmidt
Chris Chelios
Marcel Dionne
Charlie Conacher
Brodeur/Benedict/Tretiak - can't really decide.

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Old
08-16-2009, 11:20 AM
  #203
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My vote has been submitted.
The top three names missing from my original list at this point are: Dryden, Schmidt and Kurri.

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Old
08-16-2009, 12:26 PM
  #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Pappy, how Can the Bentleys be sandwiching Cook like this? Cook dominated his generation to a degree not even approached by the Bentleys and he brought more non-offense skills to the table than either of them.

I see little separating Busher Jackson from Syd Howe offensively, and Howe has a lot of other minor edges on Jackson. I readily admit Howe, a player I'm a big supporter of, is a marginal top-100 selection. You've got Jackson up there around 25th. Did Jackson dominate his era to the degree of a Newsy Lalonde? Cyclone Taylor? Marcel Dionne? Joe Malone? Frank Mahovlich? Frank Nighbor? Aurel Joliat?
I could possibly be persuaded to put Cook ahead of the Bentleys. I really like Cook & have Cook & Max ranked close to each other with Doug a few spots back. IMO, the Bentleys were pretty dominate in their prime. Max won 2 AR's & a Hart in spite of missing 2 prime years because of WWII. The bentley's were small so did not play as physical as Cook but they were strong for their size & were very strong on the puck. I have seen a couple of short clips on Max. He comes across as fast & aggressive with incredible moves.

I had Busher at #35 not #25. Comes across as fast & aggressive player who drove hard toward the net & had a great backhand. My feeling is that he was a lot more skilled than Syd Howe. I really don't know much about Syd but based on your posts I do have him in my top 120 this time.I doubt that syd will ever come up for debate & that it will be sometime before Busher comes up.

Ass I said before we are getting into the area where opinions will differ greatly.

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08-16-2009, 08:02 PM
  #205
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Just casted my votes. I'm not sure who exactly are my highest not in, but I'm pretty sure it looks like this :

- Milt Schmidt
- Joe Malone
- Ken Dryden
- Bill Cook
- Charlie Conacher
- Brad Park
- Martin Brodeur
- Syl Apps
- One of Durnan or Geoffrion. Or maybe both actually.


Last edited by MXD: 08-16-2009 at 08:16 PM.
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Old
08-16-2009, 08:05 PM
  #206
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In re : Alex Connell

70ies, have you bothered considering Connel led the league in shutouts 3 times out of four during his first four years?

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Old
08-16-2009, 08:07 PM
  #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
I agree on 5 of them but there are a few I am sure we will not see for a while. mine are

Schmidt
Apps
Max Bentley
Cook
Doug bentley
Charlie Conacher
Jackson
Bathgate
Geoffrion
Park
Interesting list.

The Bentley's that high strikes me... As much as the lack of goaltenders, especially when candidates like Brodeur, Dryden, Tretiak, Durnan and even Broda are not in yet (though I know you have Durnan more than twice further than I did).

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Old
08-16-2009, 08:19 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Interesting list.

The Bentley's that high strikes me... As much as the lack of goaltenders, especially when candidates like Brodeur, Dryden, Tretiak, Durnan and even Broda are not in yet (though I know you have Durnan more than twice further than I did).
I have explained my support for the Bentley's many many times. I would really like to hear why you rank them so low. As for lack of goalies, your list mirrors mine. No Tretiak or Broda on both lists and you have Dyden as a maybe. Brodeur has nver impressed me & I think he will drop a lot in years to come..

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Old
08-16-2009, 08:25 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
I have explained my support for the Bentley's many many times. I would really like to hear why you rank them so low. As for lack of goalies, your list mirrors mine. No Tretiak or Broda on both lists and you have Dyden as a maybe. Brodeur has nver impressed me & I think he will drop a lot in years to come..
Well, I have Dryden, Brodeur and maybe Durnan, that makes three... I have Broda lower, but I could have understood having him that high.

I just cannot rate the Doug Bentley ahead of fellow LW's Frank Mahovlich, Dickie Moore and Aurèle Joliat (though he's probably the next LW straight after Joliat, and if it's not him, it's Busher). And I'm not convinced Max was superior to Doug. Mahovlich and Moore will probably be both in my Top-10 not in yet next round - if Mahovlich doesn't get in this round (and I think it might be technically impossible for Joliat).

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Old
08-16-2009, 08:30 PM
  #210
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Not Convincing

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Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
Just because he himself was never shuffled, it doesn't mean his team wasn't. If he shows up for the first game of the season with two new linemates, it may as well have been a trade.



You can replace the names Hyland, Pitre, Ronan, Smith, Roberts, and Broadbent with Mackay, Morris, Foyston, Kerr, and Dunderdale. Both leagues had depth outside of their generational superstars.



Thems the breaks. The PCHA could have very easily won several of the Stanley Cups they lost.

1914: Toronto defeated Victoria 2-1 in the third and deciding game of their best-of-three series.

1916: Montreal defeated Portland 2-1 in the fifth and deciding game of their best-of-five series.

1918: Toronto defeated Vancouver 2-1 in the fifth and deciding game.

1919: Cancelled due to the flu while the series was tied.

1920: Ottawa 6-1 over Seattle to break a 2-2 series deadlock.

1921: Ottawa defeated Vancouver 2-1 in the fifth and deciding game.

1922: Toronto 5-1 over Vancouver, again the series went the distance.

Four instances where the Stanley Cup was decided on a single goal and could clearly have gone either way. Safe to say the champions of each league were each others equals in almost every case.
Not convinced. Basically you have a Taylor centric situation regardless of how you spin it.

But the PCHA never won in the east. You still have a situation that is closer to the 1968-70 St. Louis Blues going 0-12 in the SC finals with a majority of one goal loses.

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Old
08-16-2009, 08:41 PM
  #211
pappyline
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Well, I have Dryden, Brodeur and maybe Durnan, that makes three... I have Broda lower, but I could have understood having him that high.

I just cannot rate the Doug Bentley ahead of fellow LW's Frank Mahovlich, Dickie Moore and Aurèle Joliat (though he's probably the next LW straight after Joliat, and if it's not him, it's Busher). And I'm not convinced Max was superior to Doug. Mahovlich and Moore will probably be both in my Top-10 not in yet next round - if Mahovlich doesn't get in this round (and I think it might be technically impossible for Joliat).
Ah, I missed dryden on your list. Do think he is over-rated though. Cup counters love him(he was a Hab)
I like the big M, Moore. Joliat but still take Doug B. & Jackson aheas of them. The more research I do the more I become convinced that Doug B. & Busher are severely under-rated.

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Old
08-16-2009, 10:07 PM
  #212
Kyle McMahon
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Not convinced. Basically you have a Taylor centric situation regardless of how you spin it.
Fine, punish Taylor for the structure of his league all you want. If it was indeed geared to be a Taylor-centric league, that's just a testament to the fact that he was the top player of his generation.

Quote:
But the PCHA never won in the east. You still have a situation that is closer to the 1968-70 St. Louis Blues going 0-12 in the SC finals with a majority of one goal loses.
An outrageous comparison. Read what I posted. The PCHA lost the deciding winner-take-all game on several occasions, they were not swept like the Blues were. A bounce here or there and the PCHA could have won the Cup over the NHA/NHL a number of times that they lost it. The same can most certainly not be said for the Blues, who were probably the 6th or 7th best team in the NHL (out of 12) those years that they lost the Cup.

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Old
08-16-2009, 10:54 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
I have explained my support for the Bentley's many many times. I would really like to hear why you rank them so low. As for lack of goalies, your list mirrors mine. No Tretiak or Broda on both lists and you have Dyden as a maybe. Brodeur has nver impressed me & I think he will drop a lot in years to come..
I assume you have Brodeur so low because you attribute a large part of his success to his defense? I'm not going to argue that yet, but I hope that would mean you would rank the biggest part of his defense relatively high. I mean, the Brodeur/Stevens era Devils were the 2nd most successful team we've seen since the end of the last dynasty, and the players have to get credit for that.

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Old
08-16-2009, 10:56 PM
  #214
seventieslord
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70ies, have you bothered considering Connel led the league in shutouts 3 times out of four during his first four years?
Yes, but with the lack of statistics back then, the best stat is GAA. It's the most important one. For example, if you're first in shutouts and fourth in GAA - what happened in those other games??

He's the Curtis Joseph of the 1920s and 1930s. Never the best or 2nd-best in the league.

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Old
08-17-2009, 09:20 AM
  #215
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Not convinced. Basically you have a Taylor centric situation regardless of how you spin it.

But the PCHA never won in the east. You still have a situation that is closer to the 1968-70 St. Louis Blues going 0-12 in the SC finals with a majority of one goal loses.
In the 25 or so years that the NHL has played under an east/west conference playoff format, the west has won how many Cups without home ice advantage? Not many. Can you draw any conclusions from that about the value of home ice or the strength of the eastern or western teams?

Here is the record of the best and worst team of the NHA/NHL and PCHA from 1912-1921 when they were the two leagues challenging for the Cup.

YearLeagueBestWorstW%Dif
1912-13NHA16-4-07-13-0.450
1912-13PCHA10-5-06-9-0.267
1913-14NHA13-7-04-16-0.450
1913-14PCHA10-5-06-9-0.267
1914-15NHA14-6-06-14-0.400
1914-15PCHA13-4-04-13-0.457
1915-16NHA16-7-19-14-1.292
1915-16PCHA13-5-05-13-0.444
1916-17NHA15-5-05-15-0.500
1916-17PCHA16-8-08-15-0.319
1917-18NHL13-9-09-13-0.182
1917-18PCHA11-7-07-11-0.222
1918-19NHL12-6-05-13-0.389
1918-19PCHA12-8-07-13-0.250
1919-20NHL19-5-04-20-0.625
1919-20PCHA12-10-010-12-0.091
1920-21NHL15-9-06-18-0.375
1920-21PCHA13-11-010-13-1.104
TotalNHA/NHL133-58-155-136-1.406
TotalPCHA110-63-063-108-1.267

More parity out west, but perhaps, as indicated by Cup wins, just stronger top teams in the east.

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Old
08-17-2009, 09:36 AM
  #216
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I assume you have Brodeur so low because you attribute a large part of his success to his defense? I'm not going to argue that yet, but I hope that would mean you would rank the biggest part of his defense relatively high. I mean, the Brodeur/Stevens era Devils were the 2nd most successful team we've seen since the end of the last dynasty, and the players have to get credit for that.
Broduer's save percentage has always bothered me.

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Old
08-17-2009, 10:47 AM
  #217
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My next ten...

Syl Apps Sr.
Clint Benedict
Martin Brodeur
Chris Chelios
Bill Cook
Ken Dryden
Jiri Holecek
Sergei Makarov
Brad Park
Vladislav Tretiak

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Old
08-17-2009, 12:55 PM
  #218
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Jiri Holecek
Very interesting to see him this high. Personally, I had him at #71 on my latest list but don't really know that much about him. Are Martinec and Suchy also among your top 120?

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08-17-2009, 01:03 PM
  #219
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Originally Posted by Shirtless Joe View Post
Very interesting to see him this high. Personally, I had him at #71 on my latest list but don't really know that much about him. Are Martinec and Suchy also among your top 120?
I had Holecek at #66 (a spot below Tretiak), Martinec at #68 and Suchy at #78. I think they are all very deserving candidates but wouldn't be surprised if only Holecek ends up as a voting option. Actually, I'll be surprised if Suchy or Martinec had enough support.

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Old
08-17-2009, 01:07 PM
  #220
Nalyd Psycho
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Very interesting to see him this high. Personally, I had him at #71 on my latest list but don't really know that much about him. Are Martinec and Suchy also among your top 120?
Martinec is, but a fair bit lower. He might ease his way up though.

Suchy, no, his peak is just too short.

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Old
08-17-2009, 05:02 PM
  #221
Kyle McMahon
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
My next ten...

Syl Apps Sr.
Clint Benedict
Martin Brodeur
Chris Chelios
Bill Cook
Ken Dryden
Jiri Holecek
Sergei Makarov
Brad Park
Vladislav Tretiak
Hopefully there's enough support for Benedict to come up in the next round. Quite likely that Dryden and Brodeur will be up for debate, and Benedict deserves to be in that argument as well.

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Old
08-17-2009, 05:12 PM
  #222
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
My next ten...

Syl Apps Sr.
Clint Benedict
Martin Brodeur
Chris Chelios
Bill Cook
Ken Dryden
Jiri Holecek
Sergei Makarov
Brad Park
Vladislav Tretiak
My next 10 not yet added
Vladislav Tretiak
Martin Brodeur
Milt Schmidt
Brad Park
Boom Boom Geoffrion
Chris Chelios
Bill Cook
Frank Mahovlich
Joe Malone
Paul Coffey

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Old
08-17-2009, 05:14 PM
  #223
seventieslord
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Hopefully there's enough support for Benedict to come up in the next round. Quite likely that Dryden and Brodeur will be up for debate, and Benedict deserves to be in that argument as well.


Benedict = Brodeur.

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Old
08-17-2009, 05:36 PM
  #224
Canadiens1958
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Clint Benedict

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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post


Benedict = Brodeur.
Clint Benedict was the goalie that brought about a rule change in 1918 that allowed goalies to flop to make a save.Previously goalies had to play upright.(The Trail of the Stanley Cup VolI p.669).

His overall record is somewhat pedestrian compared to his contemporaries:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...benedcl01.html

At no time did he have the all-time NHL wins record for a goalie or any other significant records. He had a knack for getting hot during the playoffs and contributed to three Stanley Cup victories.

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08-17-2009, 05:51 PM
  #225
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Clint Benedict

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Benedict = Brodeur.
The comparison is pretty interesting and may not be that far off. Unfortunatlely, from information gathered over years on this board, I see Benedict entering the debate a a lot later. His case will without a doubt be interesting. By my personal criterias, only Brodeur, Dryden and Durnan could still slot over him among NHL goalies. The guy has been the best goalie in North American hockey for an extended period of time and a pretty big part of a dynasty team. Two feats that neither of Brimsek, Broda, Gardiner or Bower can brag about at the same time. Selected by Charles L. Coleman in The Trail of the Stanley Cup as his 1893-1926 first all-star team starter over Vezina, Holmes and Lehman. I know guys around here can be pretty high on early day forwards, which is great. But somehow I think early goalies and d-men (Vezina, Cameron, G Boucher...) are more or less victim of a double standard where the same criterias does not seem to apply. The guy definitely deserve to be higher than the 62nd place he slotted last time.

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