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Inside Hockey - "Rangers still lack scoring"

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Old
08-13-2009, 12:08 PM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turcotte8 View Post
Antropov scored 28 goals last year which is only the second time he's scored more than 20 in his career.
Higgins scored more than 20 three straight years and might have done it again last year if he wasn't hurt.
Higgins can easily replace Antro's production and play a better overall game as well.
And the other time Antropov scored over 20 was the previous season. And if you're going to give Higgins a pass for injuries, why not give Antropov one as well? In 06-07 he had 18 goals in 54 games. Hell, he could have hit 20 in 05-06 (12 in 57 games).

And then let's not forget that goals are only half of offensive production. Antropov's last two seasons produced more points than any of Higgins' seasons.

You can spin it any way you want, but the claim that Higgins can "easily" replace Antropov's production seems unfounded.

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08-13-2009, 12:13 PM
  #52
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The only reason we lack scoring is because of our young question marks. The young players will have to step up that's all. If they do we will be around the middle of the pack which would make a big difference cause talent wise/scoring-wise teams haven't really changed that much.

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08-13-2009, 12:19 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
And the other time Antropov scored over 20 was the previous season. And if you're going to give Higgins a pass for injuries, why not give Antropov one as well? In 06-07 he had 18 goals in 54 games. Hell, he could have hit 20 in 05-06 (12 in 57 games).

And then let's not forget that goals are only half of offensive production. Antropov's last two seasons produced more points than any of Higgins' seasons.

You can spin it any way you want, but the claim that Higgins can "easily" replace Antropov's production seems unfounded
Um, no it's not.

Antropov's career point per game average is .58, Higgins is .52 That's only a .06 difference in production.

Higgins is a better skater, can kill penalties, and is better defensively than Antropov. He's also alot cheaper- 2.3 million vs 4

Anyone who would rather have Antro is a delusional.

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08-13-2009, 12:28 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turcotte8 View Post
Um, no it's not.

Antropov's career point per game average is .58, Higgins is .52 That's only a .06 difference in production.

Higgins is a better skater, can kill penalties, and is better defensively than Antropov. He's also alot cheaper- 2.3 million vs 4

Anyone who would rather have Antro is a delusional.
And as I pointed out, Antropov seems to have found his game over the past two seasons, no? In that span he's averaged .75 points per game. Which is quite a difference.

As far as who has better defensive ability and a cheaper contract, well, that's irrelevant. The discussion is about offensive production imported in vs. production exported.

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08-13-2009, 12:31 PM
  #55
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even strength scoring will be sketchy unless we can develop 3 solid lines that can score.

our biggest chance to score more goals and thus be better overall is on the powerplay. improve the pp from bottom 5 to top 12 and we will win alot more games.

the pp, like usual, is key.

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08-13-2009, 01:14 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turcotte8 View Post
Higgins can easily replace Antro's production
My point, thank you.

I find it hard to swallow the statement "We definitely addressed the goal scoring department" when such statments are predicated on "potential" and "can."

Quote:
Originally Posted by turcotte8 View Post
Antropov's career point per game average is .58, Higgins is .52 That's only a .06 difference in production.
So you're telling me that Antropov has maintained a higher ppg average while playing 245 more games. I don't see how it helps your claim that Higgins "can easily replace" Antropov's production when Antropov has averaged more points in a higher sample size. If you want to support the statement that Higgins can easily replace Antropov's production, you must at least show he can match it. Your stat doesn't show that. It shows the reverse.

Understand, maybe Higgins "can" score 28 but he has yet to do so, and while I think it's fine to have a steady 24-goal-per-year guy on the roster, I also don't think that such a guy solves a team's goalscoring woes when the team is one of the worst in the league at burying the puck. Such a guy is a nice support scorer ... which is what we had in Zherdev, Naslund, and Antropov.

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08-13-2009, 01:24 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyBurd View Post
This team was one of worst scoring teams in the league (in my opinion, the worst). It lost Naslund, Gomez, Zherdev and Korpikoski off that team. Then when they were a better scoring team they had Antropov. They lost him as well. They brought in Gaborik, Higgins, Kotalik and Lisin. That's it. Points per season, it seems to be close to a wash... even a down grade potentially.

All optimism is based purely on potential and hope. Hope that Gaborik stays healthy. Hope that Lisin isn't a lemon. Hope that Dubinsky steps up big. Hope that Callahan at least replicates last season. Hope that Drury benefits from Kotalik or simply has a bounce back season. Hope that everybody benefits from an uptempo offense from a new coach. Hope that Anisimov is able to handle regular NHL duty. Hope that these rookie D-men can transition to the NHL without hurting the team significantly.

Bottom line is, to view this team as much improved in the offensive department, you really have to be looking at it with a very optimistic disposition. A lot of things have to go very right. A lot of trends have to be broken. This team is going to have to have A LOT of 20 goal scorers.
Neatly summed up.

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Old
08-13-2009, 01:24 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dedalus View Post
My point, thank you.

I find it hard to swallow the statement "We definitely addressed the goal scoring department" when such statments are predicated on "potential" and "can."


So you're telling me that Antropov has maintained a higher ppg average while playing 245 more games. I don't see how it helps your claim that Higgins "can easily replace" Antropov's production when Antropov has averaged more points in a higher sample size. If you want to support the statement that Higgins can easily replace Antropov's production, you must at least show he can match it. Your stat doesn't show that. It shows the reverse.

Understand, maybe Higgins "can" score 28 but he has yet to do so, and while I think it's fine to have a steady 24-goal-per-year guy on the roster, I also don't think that such a guy solves a team's goalscoring woes when the team is one of the worst in the league at burying the puck. Such a guy is a nice support scorer ... which is what we had in Zherdev, Naslund, and Antropov.
to be fair though, Higgins for a full year almost assuredly will be better than Dawes, Fritsche and Prucha for 80% of the season + Antropov for 20% of the season...

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Old
08-13-2009, 01:36 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dedalus View Post
My point, thank you.

I find it hard to swallow the statement "We definitely addressed the goal scoring department" when such statments are predicated on "potential" and "can".
I never said in any of my posts we completely addressed our goal scoring problems. All I said was Higgins can match Antro's production. Which he can. Will he? Who knows at this point in time. We'll find out in April.

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08-13-2009, 01:37 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
to be fair though, Higgins for a full year almost assuredly will be better than Dawes, Fritsche and Prucha for 80% of the season + Antropov for 20% of the season...
I'm not sure what you mean by "better." Goal production was SupersonicMonkey's topic. Will Higgins match the combined output of all four of those guys in their 1st/2nd line roles? We'll see.

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08-13-2009, 01:42 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turcotte8 View Post
I never said in any of my posts we completely addressed our goal scoring problems.
You replied to a post in which I was answering someone who wrote that. I clarified why I had a problem with that quote; I did not attribute it to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by turcotte8 View Post
All I said was Higgins can match Antro's production. Which he can. Will he? Who knows at this point in time. We'll find out in April.
So then you would agree with me that SupersonicMonkey is jumping the gun with his statement that "we definitely addressed the goal scoring department."

And in truth the arguments you've made regarding Higgins haven't exactly been convincing for the reasons pointed out to you by by nyr2k2 and myself.

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08-13-2009, 01:49 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dedalus View Post
And in truth the arguments you've made regarding Higgins haven't exactly been convincing for the reasons pointed out to you by by nyr2k2 and myself.
You mean the facts that prove that he can? Antro's best season was 59 points, Higgins was 52. You're saying there is absolutely no way Higgins can replace 50+ points in season?

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08-13-2009, 01:56 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turcotte8 View Post
You mean the facts that prove that he can? Antro's best season was 59 points, Higgins was 52. You're saying there is absolutely no way Higgins can replace 50+ points in season?
There's a big difference between saying that a guy can do something and that a guy can easily do something. That was my issue.

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08-13-2009, 01:59 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
There's a big difference between saying that a guy can do something and that a guy can easily do something. That was my issue.
OK, fair enough

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Old
08-13-2009, 02:40 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turcotte8 View Post
You mean the facts that prove that he can? Antro's best season was 59 points, Higgins was 52.
Yes. I mean the facts you've offered. Your logic so far runs thus: "Higgins's production can easily replace Antropov's. I know this because Higgins has not matched Antropov's production. The fact that Higgins has a lower career points per game average clearly shows that Higgins can match Antropov. The fact that Higgins scored fewer points in his best year than Antropov in his best year only further supports the idea that Higgins's production can replace Antropov's."

See the problem with the facts as you're trying to apply them? The stats don't even show that Higgins can replace Antropov's production, much less do it easily.

Now here are a couple of other stats (read "facts") that make things worse for Higgins's case:
(1) Higgins has a career shooting percentage of 12%. Antropov's is 13.3%.

(2) Not only does Higgins have a lower career ppg average WITH a smaller sample size, he actually has a higher career average time on ice (16:40 to Antropov's 15:24). So Higgins scores fewer points playing more minutes.

These are not helpful when you're trying to make the argument that Higgins "can easily replace Antropov's production."

Quote:
Originally Posted by turcotte8 View Post
You're saying there is absolutely no way Higgins can replace 50+ points in season?
I think we both know I never made such a claim. If a strawman is the best you can offer, let's just call this discussion over.

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Old
08-13-2009, 02:46 PM
  #66
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Antropov: 18GP 7G
Prucha: 28GP, 4G
Dawes: 52GP, 10G
Fritsche: 16GP, 1G

Total between the 4 are:
114GP, 22G

which comes out to 16 goals when normalized to 82 games.

Higgins career goals per game gives you 24 goals.

So in essence, i think it is safe to say that Higgins production, over the course of the full year, should be significantly better than the production that Antropov, and the players he replaced, gave us.

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Old
08-13-2009, 03:04 PM
  #67
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To me, the biggest difference compared to last season is we finally have a guy we can hook the wagon to in Gaborik. We had no such dynamic player last season...not even close. The only "hope" that Im primarily concerned about is the hope that he can stay healthy. If he cant, all bets are off.

From a depth perspective, Gaborik, Drury, Higgins, Callahan, and Kotalik have all scored 20+ goals in the NHL. Lisin projects to be a 20 goal scorer, if not more..someone just needs to give him a map of the defensive zone. Dubinsky will score 55 points by accident if he winds up playing with Gaborik. Avery has the ability to pot 20 if Torts can keep his head on straight.

My point is, there was a lot more grasping for straws to begin last season when Nigel Dawes, Aaron Voros, Petr Prucha, and Lauri Korpikoski were all expected to play roles in the top 9.

Im not saying this offense is going to blow the doors off of each opponent, but to even suggest it might be on par or even worse than last year?? Thats insane.

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08-13-2009, 03:11 PM
  #68
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Gaborik stays healthy and they may score more goals. Gaborik goes down for an extended period of time and Torts will outdo Renney in Renney-style defensive hockey.

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08-13-2009, 03:24 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
Gaborik stays healthy and they may score more goals. Gaborik goes down for an extended period of time and Torts will outdo Renney in Renney-style defensive hockey.
Although that might be the smart thing to do if injuries strike, I dont see Torts deviating from a go-go-go gameplan too much...regardless of the personnel.

He'll probably just deflect the blame to players in his doghouse.

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08-13-2009, 03:36 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
To me, the biggest difference compared to last season is we finally have a guy we can hook the wagon to in Gaborik. We had no such dynamic player last season...not even close. The only "hope" that Im primarily concerned about is the hope that he can stay healthy. If he cant, all bets are off.

From a depth perspective, Gaborik, Drury, Higgins, Callahan, and Kotalik have all scored 20+ goals in the NHL. Lisin projects to be a 20 goal scorer, if not more..someone just needs to give him a map of the defensive zone. Dubinsky will score 55 points by accident if he winds up playing with Gaborik. Avery has the ability to pot 20 if Torts can keep his head on straight.

My point is, there was a lot more grasping for straws to begin last season when Nigel Dawes, Aaron Voros, Petr Prucha, and Lauri Korpikoski were all expected to play roles in the top 9.

Im not saying this offense is going to blow the doors off of each opponent, but to even suggest it might be on par or even worse than last year?? Thats insane.
you seem to be counting on quite a few players having career years...Lisin, Avery and Dubinsky among others...

I really really really have my doubts about this season.

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08-13-2009, 03:53 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dedalus View Post
Yes. I mean the facts you've offered. Your logic so far runs thus: "Higgins's production can easily replace Antropov's. I know this because Higgins has not matched Antropov's production. The fact that Higgins has a lower career points per game average clearly shows that Higgins can match Antropov. The fact that Higgins scored fewer points in his best year than Antropov in his best year only further supports the idea that Higgins's production can replace Antropov's."

See the problem with the facts as you're trying to apply them? The stats don't even show that Higgins can replace Antropov's production, much less do it easily.

Now here are a couple of other stats (read "facts") that make things worse for Higgins's case:
(1) Higgins has a career shooting percentage of 12%. Antropov's is 13.3%.

(2) Not only does Higgins have a lower career ppg average WITH a smaller sample size, he actually has a higher career average time on ice (16:40 to Antropov's 15:24). So Higgins scores fewer points playing more minutes.

These are not helpful when you're trying to make the argument that Higgins "can easily replace Antropov's production."


I think we both know I never made such a claim. If a strawman is the best you can offer, let's just call this discussion over.
If you look at my posts I've never used the word "easily", just that he can.

If you let a player go who scored 59 points and his replacement gets 52, you've replaced his production.
Especially when the 52 point player helps you win in other areas of the game besides offense that the 59 point player didn't.

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Old
08-13-2009, 04:15 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turcotte8 View Post
Antropov scored 28 goals last year which is only the second time he's scored more than 20 in his career.
Higgins scored more than 20 three straight years and might have done it again last year if he wasn't hurt.
Higgins can easily replace Antro's production and play a better overall game as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by turcotte8 View Post
If you look at my posts I've never used the word "easily", just that he can.

If you let a player go who scored 59 points and his replacement gets 52, you've replaced his production.
Especially when the 52 point player helps you win in other areas of the game besides offense that the 59 point player didn't.
Not to stir the pot or anything but you did use that word

Anyway i do agree with you, higgins does bring more to the plate. its not just PPG and how many games the player has played.

We traded out a russian with a kid whose father is a FDNY Captain, and grew up in NY (long island)

I think we might see some thing special out of Higgins this year

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08-13-2009, 04:15 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turcotte8 View Post
If you look at my posts I've never used the word "easily", just that he can.
Post #47: "Antropov scored 28 goals last year which is only the second time he's scored more than 20 in his career.
Higgins scored more than 20 three straight years and might have done it again last year if he wasn't hurt.
Higgins can easily replace Antro's production and play a better overall game as well."


Link: http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=2...8&postcount=47

When I quote, I quote accurately, mostly because I can't stand it when people aren't accurate when they paraphrase me. And I trust your original post won't be edited after the fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by turcotte8 View Post
If you let a player go who scored 59 points and his replacement gets 52, you've replaced his production.
Meaning: "Even if Higgins doesn't score as much as Antropov, so long as he's close, I'm going to say he's scored as much as Antropov." I call that a conveniently loose position to take, but in any case, it doesn't much matter to me. I've already said Higgins may post the same goals. That has never been a point of contention. The positions here are two:

SupersonicMonkey's: The Rangers "definitely addressed goal scoring."
Yours: The facts show that Higgins "can easily replace Antro's production."

Quote:
Originally Posted by turcotte8 View Post
Especially when the 52 point player helps you win in other areas of the game besides offense that the 59 point player didn't.
But these other areas are not SupersonicMonkey's point, so they are not - nor have they ever been - mine. The topic of discussion you signed on for is goals and whether or not Higgins and Kotalik can be counted on to supply as many as those players they're replacing.

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08-13-2009, 04:31 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
Antropov: 18GP 7G

So in essence, i think it is safe to say that Higgins production, over the course of the full year, should be significantly better than the production that Antropov, and the players he replaced, gave us.
Not untrue, but the problems with your calculation are obvious.
1. You are using numbers acquired in roles not appropriate to the ones Higgins played/ will be playing; thus that stastical comparison falls. In other words, Prucha was rarely paired on the top two lines, and if he had been given time equal to Higgins with linemates of better quality than he consistently had, he would have posted more goals. Same with Dawes. Same with Fritsche. All their numbers go up if they are full-time second liners getting 2:30 of powerplay time every night.

This is why I specifically asked: "Will Higgins match the combined output of all four of those guys in their 1st/2nd line roles?"

2. Will Higgins's production be enough to cover what Antropov would have given had he played here a full year either last year or next?

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08-13-2009, 04:38 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
To me, the biggest difference compared to last season is we finally have a guy we can hook the wagon to in Gaborik. We had no such dynamic player last season...not even close.
True but we did have one in Jagr, and it made little difference in our overall fortunes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
From a depth perspective, Gaborik, Drury, Higgins, Callahan, and Kotalik have all scored 20+ goals in the NHL.
But Callahan and Drury can't be said to add depth from last year. They were on the team last year. The argument that Higgins and Kotalik add depth because they've scored 20+ goals in the NHL is easily countered by saying the same holds true of Naslund, Antropov, and Zherdev. How do the 20+ goals of Higgins and Kotalik provide more depth to the 20+ goals of Naslund, Zherdev, and Antropov?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
to even suggest it might be on par or even worse than last year?? Thats insane.
Is it?

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