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Inside Hockey - "Rangers still lack scoring"

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Old
08-13-2009, 04:58 PM
  #76
Inferno
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dedalus View Post
Not untrue, but the problems with your calculation are obvious.
1. You are using numbers acquired in roles not appropriate to the ones Higgins played/ will be playing; thus that stastical comparison falls. In other words, Prucha was rarely paired on the top two lines, and if he had been given time equal to Higgins with linemates of better quality than he consistently had, he would have posted more goals. Same with Dawes. Same with Fritsche. All their numbers go up if they are full-time second liners getting 2:30 of powerplay time every night.

This is why I specifically asked: "Will Higgins match the combined output of all four of those guys in their 1st/2nd line roles?"

2. Will Higgins's production be enough to cover what Antropov would have given had he played here a full year either last year or next?
but you arent trying to make an argument of whether or not we should have signed antropov, the argument is whether or not higgins, this year, will be able to eclipse what Antropov gave us last year, and since he only gave us 7 goals, that is an obvious yes...however im looking at it in terms of the roster spot....will antropovs spot in the lineup last year, often times filled by dawes, prucha, or fritsche (and yes, all 3 played top 6 minutes off and on..)and my answer is a most definite yes.

i think the point is moot anyway, since in my personal opinion it is Higgins job to replace Naslunds production, not Antropov. I look at it as Kotaliks job to replace Antro/Prucha/Dawes/Fritsches numbers....and of that, i am not convinced.

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Old
08-13-2009, 06:18 PM
  #77
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Higgins doesn't replace Antropov.

He replaces Naslund.

Kotalik replaces Antropov.

Gaborik replaces Zherdev.

Lisin replaces Korpikoski.

Dubinsky replaces Gomez.

Anisimov replaces nobody, he fills a hole, because we didn't have a legit 3rd line center.

Not sure what's difficult to understand about this.

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Old
08-13-2009, 06:19 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Higgins doesn't replace Antropov.

He replaces Naslund.

Kotalik replaces Antropov.

Gaborik replaces Zherdev.

Lisin replaces Korpikoski.

Dubinsky replaces Gomez.

Anisimov replaces nobody, he fills a hole, because we didn't have a legit 3rd line center.

Not sure what's difficult to understand about this.
By your logic, wouldn't AA replace Dubi, since Dubi replaces Gomez?

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Old
08-13-2009, 06:28 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
By your logic, wouldn't AA replace Dubi, since Dubi replaces Gomez?
No, what i'm saying is because there was no third line center, both the second and third lines were by committee.

Drury wasn't the second line center at all times last year.

Dubinsky spent time as the second line center a well.

Drury also spent time as a winger. As did Dubinsky.

Higgins, in no way shape or form replaces Antropov.

Kotalik and Antropov are a lot closer then Higgins and Antropov.

Gomez was the first line center the entire year except for the time he spend in the press box when he was injured.

Dubinsky is as of now considered the first line center. That's why he replaces Gomez.

There was no main stay as the third line center. Anisimov fills a hole, he doesn't replace anyone.

Higgins, as of right now, is considered the top line LW. Which was Naslund's spot majority of the season.

Zherdev was our premier offensive player the entire season. Gaborik clearly takes that role now.

Korpikoski was traded for Lisin, who will be a third line winger. Lisin clearly replaces Korpikoski.


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Old
08-13-2009, 06:31 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
you seem to be counting on quite a few players having career years...Lisin, Avery and Dubinsky among others...

I really really really have my doubts about this season.
Last season, you harped on the opinion that the team had the talent to score and it was a coaching/system problem.

Im arguing that this team has more talent than the team that began last year, which is a good debate topic as far as Im concerned, because I understand the sentiment of those who may not think we're better.

Are you trying to say we'll be worse offensively? Is that even possible??? Or could you be covering for Torts before the season even starts? I just think its strange your insinuating we have a personnel problem already when last season that wasnt the case.

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Old
08-13-2009, 06:32 PM
  #81
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Any way you look at it we're only a bit better on paper than we were last year. That's the important part.

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Old
08-13-2009, 06:50 PM
  #82
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Don't you people think that the system, as such, will add some scoring? Not saying it wouldn't with the old personnel, but it seems to me that simply playing a more aggressive, up tempo, hockey will add a few goals to pretty much every player on the roster. Furthermore, I think it's a style that definitely fits Redden better, possibly Rosival too...

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Old
08-13-2009, 07:03 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tumsh View Post
Don't you people think that the system, as such, will add some scoring? Not saying it wouldn't with the old personnel, but it seems to me that simply playing a more aggressive, up tempo, hockey will add a few goals to pretty much every player on the roster. Furthermore, I think it's a style that definitely fits Redden better, possibly Rosival too...
Yes, I think it will certainly help. We'll certainly need it.

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Old
08-13-2009, 07:06 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tumsh View Post
Don't you people think that the system, as such, will add some scoring? Not saying it wouldn't with the old personnel, but it seems to me that simply playing a more aggressive, up tempo, hockey will add a few goals to pretty much every player on the roster. Furthermore, I think it's a style that definitely fits Redden better, possibly Rosival too...
Not to mention, as a team overall, NYR is much faster. Gaborik and Lisin are two of the fastest skaters in the NHL. If everyone comes in top physical condition to camp, which they will, then this team will be very good for the system. A more up tempo game will allow for the speed to be put to use on defense and offense. While alot of people on here may be overrating the effect Tortorella's new system may have, there are a bunch of people who are underrating it.

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Old
08-13-2009, 07:11 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vladmyir111 View Post
Oh man we can all only dream that we will be an "average offensive team" after last year.
With average offense and Lundqvist in the net, we'll be a lock for at least the second round, maybe even going to the Eastern Conference Finals.

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Old
08-13-2009, 07:14 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FutureGM97 View Post
Not to mention, as a team overall, NYR is much faster.
Not to mention that we've added 10 new prospects without losing any decent ones: McD, Gilroy, Kreider, Werek, Bourque, Boyle, Williams, Heineken, Valentenko and Chad Johnson.

Our future certainly looks much better.

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Old
08-13-2009, 07:22 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
but you arent trying to make an argument of whether or not we should have signed antropov, the argument is whether or not higgins, this year, will be able to eclipse what Antropov gave us last year, and since he only gave us 7 goals, that is an obvious yes
Well if that's the case, your question should be, "Can Higgins give us in 18 games what Antropov gave us in 18 games last year?" Apples to apples, yes?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
im looking at it in terms of the roster spot....will antropovs spot in the lineup last year, often times filled by dawes, prucha, or fritsche (and yes, all 3 played top 6 minutes off and on..)and my answer is a most definite yes.
I'm looking at it the same way, and when the you do, the answer becomes "maybe" not "yes." You used the total of all Prucha's, Dawes's, and Fritsche's numbers, even when they were NOT filling that roster spot. Many, many, many of their combined nights they were NOT filling the roster spot Higgins will be, so a comparison is deeply flawed. To make an accurate comparison, you'd need to find the games when each was playing on the 1st or 2nd line and eliminate the night's when they were playing on the 3rd and 4th.

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Old
08-13-2009, 07:54 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Last season, you harped on the opinion that the team had the talent to score and it was a coaching/system problem.

Im arguing that this team has more talent than the team that began last year, which is a good debate topic as far as Im concerned, because I understand the sentiment of those who may not think we're better.

Are you trying to say we'll be worse offensively? Is that even possible??? Or could you be covering for Torts before the season even starts? I just think its strange your insinuating we have a personnel problem already when last season that wasnt the case.
i think last years team...made more sense than this years team..if that makes any sort of sense. i saw balance, i saw playmakers, scorers, size, speed, defensive awareness etc... a good mix of aspects that for some reason just wouldnt work right all the time..to me, this years team, as it is currently constructed, just doesn't "make sense" i think we dont have the right blend of size, speed, goal scoring, etc....the mix just seems off...it's hard to explain.

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Old
08-13-2009, 08:02 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
i think last years team...made more sense than this years team..if that makes any sort of sense. i saw balance, i saw playmakers, scorers, size, speed, defensive awareness etc... a good mix of aspects that for some reason just wouldnt work right all the time..to me, this years team, as it is currently constructed, just doesn't "make sense" i think we dont have the right blend of size, speed, goal scoring, etc....the mix just seems off...it's hard to explain.
I agree with what your saying here but it's not like theres much beyond trades that we are seeing here.

Speed is not going to be a problem on this new team. Between Gaborik, and Lisin we are already plenty faster. With Torts pushing everyone to condition thats going to be another thing.

I don't feel our top line of D is strong enough. I know everyone undervalues Rozsival but the real problem we can't get that right mix is because of money tied up in Redden. We are paying the guy like if he was Chara or Lidstrom and there was NO way he was considered for Norris. For his price we could have a D-man whos a little better and have 3 mill left over.

Hopefully with the new style we will be able to find the Redden of old feeding good outlet passes and being a little stronger on the puck like we saw him at the end of the year.

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Old
08-13-2009, 09:16 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyNX27 View Post
I agree with what your saying here but it's not like theres much beyond trades that we are seeing here.

Speed is not going to be a problem on this new team. Between Gaborik, and Lisin we are already plenty faster. With Torts pushing everyone to condition thats going to be another thing.

I don't feel our top line of D is strong enough. I know everyone undervalues Rozsival but the real problem we can't get that right mix is because of money tied up in Redden. We are paying the guy like if he was Chara or Lidstrom and there was NO way he was considered for Norris. For his price we could have a D-man whos a little better and have 3 mill left over.

Hopefully with the new style we will be able to find the Redden of old feeding good outlet passes and being a little stronger on the puck like we saw him at the end of the year.
wait what.

while i like this years team speed, i wouldnt say were all that much faster.

gomez
zhedev
sjo

all gone and all fast.

but gaborik, lisin and higgins all skate very well.

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Old
08-13-2009, 09:25 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Higgins doesn't replace Antropov.

He replaces Naslund.

Kotalik replaces Antropov.

Gaborik replaces Zherdev.

Lisin replaces Korpikoski.

Dubinsky replaces Gomez.

Anisimov replaces nobody, he fills a hole, because we didn't have a legit 3rd line center.

Not sure what's difficult to understand about this.
Wait... so... who replaced Dubinsky again? I'm confused.

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08-13-2009, 09:29 PM
  #92
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This debate is reaching the point of ridiculousness. We all have our anticipated opening night lineups, arguments about "who replaces who" in scoring are meaningless because we honestly don't know who will score what next year. We have prior performances to judge by, but as Drury's drop in production from 06-07 to 07-08 shows, you cant rely on players to net anywhere near the same production on a yearly basis.

We will not know if our offense is significantly better than last seasons until about the quarter-pole of this year.

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08-13-2009, 09:31 PM
  #93
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Wait... so... who replaced Dubinsky again? I'm confused.
lol

Nobody.

Here:


Last year Gomez was the top line center.

This year, as of now, Dubinsky is the to line center.


Last year Dubinsky was NOT the third line center. No body was the "set" third line center. It was a position based on committee.

Dubinsky was at times the second line center, the third line center, and the second line left wing.


The third line had no legit center. That was a hole last year that was filled by committee on a game to game basis by somebody else.

This year, Anisimov will be a steady third line center.

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Old
08-13-2009, 10:08 PM
  #94
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You know the off season is too long when you debate things like this...

Drop the puck already!!

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Old
08-13-2009, 10:13 PM
  #95
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IMO they will lack scoring until they are able to move Redden's contract and utilize that money on the thing the new NHL stresses, and that is offense.

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Old
08-13-2009, 11:53 PM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Higgins doesn't replace Antropov.

He replaces Naslund.Cannot replace Naslund's production

Kotalik replaces Antropov.Cannot replace Antropov production

Gaborik replaces Zherdev.Will exceed Zherdev production

Lisin replaces Korpikoski.Who, knows? A wash

Dubinsky replaces Gomez.Cannot replace Gomez production

Anisimov replaces nobody, he fills a hole, because we didn't have a legit 3rd line center.Cannot replace Dubinski production
Based on the above we are gambling on Gaborik to save our offense. Live long , Marian! Be well.

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Old
08-14-2009, 12:08 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by 94now View Post
Based on the above we are gambling on Gaborik to save our offense. Live long , Marian! Be well.
I think a full season of Kotalik can outscore a season of Dawes + Antropov.+

If Higgins stays healthy(which I think he will) he will at least match Naslunds offensive output. +/=

Avery over Prucha. +

Gaborik over Zherdev. +

Dubinsky versus Gomez. -

Anisimov versus Dubinsky. -

Boyle/Arnason versus Betts(offensively). +


I think they have done a pretty good job of improving but they wont be near the top of the league in scoring.

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08-14-2009, 12:33 AM
  #98
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i just hope we have another move up our sleeve....this just doesnt seem like a playoff winning mix....with henrik and gaborik i think were a playoff team (barely)...but the rest....eeehhhhh

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08-14-2009, 12:49 AM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
i just hope we have another move up our sleeve....this just doesnt seem like a playoff winning mix....with henrik and gaborik i think were a playoff team (barely)...but the rest....eeehhhhh
There aren't any moves out there that are going to make them "seem" like a playoff winner. Best they can do is seem like a fringe playoff team. If there's going to be a playoff winning mix on the team, it's going to have to come unexpectedly from sudden team chemistry and a few big time overachievers.

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Old
08-14-2009, 01:01 AM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
i just hope we have another move up our sleeve....this just doesnt seem like a playoff winning mix....with henrik and gaborik i think were a playoff team (barely)...but the rest....eeehhhhh
I dont think they are totally finished but I worry about what else they have planned. Considering I dont think they would move the newcomers I dont know what they would have to move in order to increase the offensive output.


Who besides Heatley would look like a good addition like Zherdev was last season. I think Sather has someone in his cross-hairs but I dont think it is Heatley.

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