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Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XIII: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly

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08-12-2009, 05:24 PM
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mouser
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Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XIII: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly

Carry on, previous thread can be found here:

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=670599

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08-12-2009, 05:29 PM
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I dunno - I've seen a lot of "ugly" in this thread, especially from partisans who throw anything they can against the wall in their attempt to defend their desired end goal. And I've seen plenty of "bad", as well... I'm still searching for the "good"

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08-12-2009, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShootThePuckCoyotes
How can you say you are getting screwed? The fans of Phoenix are the ones getting screwed no matter how this turns out. I hope you guys get another team someday but to talk about how you are getting screwed when the only thing right now that will make you happy is ripping another city's team out from under them is ridiculous.

original post by Brodie
How guilty do you feel for ripping someone else's team away? I'm sorry, but why should anyway feel sorry for fans of a team that was already ripped away from one fanbase because they might have to suffer the same fate? Karma.
The pho fans are not to blame either NHL seems to use up and spit out who they want fans dont count , just like owners keep finding new ones who might pay more in a better TV market and on and on it goes

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08-12-2009, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by HansH View Post
I dunno - I've seen a lot of "ugly" in this thread, especially from partisans who throw anything they can against the wall in their attempt to defend their desired end goal. And I've seen plenty of "bad", as well... I'm still searching for the "good"
The good will be when the people of Phoenix come out to support their team.

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08-12-2009, 05:32 PM
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I do not understand the "Hamilton is getting screwed" argument. Hamilton is in the exact same place it was before Balsillie started his fishing expedition for an NHL team, so unless Hamilton was getting screwed prior to his involvement, I'm not following the logic.

Given how poorly constructed Hamilton's expansion bids were, I don't think you can make an argument the city was "screwed" in those processes either.

Right now, the arguments aren't about Hamilton but about the ability to move a team without NHL approval. The league would be screaming about this process no matter where Balsillie wanted to move them to because it undermines their ability to control their product.

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08-12-2009, 05:33 PM
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From: Shoot the puck Coyotes:

"How can you say you are getting screwed? The fans of Phoenix are the ones getting screwed no matter how this turns out. I hope you guys get another team someday but to talk about how you are getting screwed when the only thing right now that will make you happy is ripping another city's team out from under them is ridiculous."

Well pot the kettle in Winnipeg is calling-


you didn't support your team, you didn't attend the games in large enough numbers, your revenues are lacklustre, you blame management, coaching, losing for your lack of support for YOUR team, I acknowledge their is a small passionate base of fans in Phoenix, but it's not enough, the Phoenix posters on this board beg for another five years, but what will that really prove, you had your chance, it didn't work, in a city purported to have a population of 5 1/2 million could you say there's 50, 000 who would cough up money for this team in tickets and merch., I see on this board how many of the Coyote fans would be right at home in hockey mad cities as Montreal, Philadelphia, Toronto- there's just not enough of you.

and as far as the Southern Ontario market getting another team, will never happen with Tannenbaum and the Leafs, as he has allegedly said "there is no number in the world that would satisfy our territorial rights"

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08-12-2009, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Kritter471 View Post
I do not understand the "Hamilton is getting screwed" argument. Hamilton is in the exact same place it was before Balsillie started his fishing expedition for an NHL team, so unless Hamilton was getting screwed prior to his involvement, I'm not following the logic.

Given how poorly constructed Hamilton's expansion bids were, I don't think you can make an argument the city was "screwed" in those processes either.

Right now, the arguments aren't about Hamilton but about the ability to move a team without NHL approval. The league would be screaming about this process no matter where Balsillie wanted to move them to because it undermines their ability to control their product.
you show total lack of understanding of previous attempts of Hamilton to get teams, in fact when Ottawa and TB were awarded, it was a well known fact that Hamilton had by far the best bid and best presentation- Tim Horton's founder Ron Joyce made the mistake of asking "what is the territorial fee" - to this day it has never been answered, and if NHL (Leafs) have there way, it never will.

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08-12-2009, 05:38 PM
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original post by Brodie
How guilty do you feel for ripping someone else's team away? I'm sorry, but why should anyway feel sorry for fans of a team that was already ripped away from one fanbase because they might have to suffer the same fate? Karma.

I feel horrible for the Jets fans especially now that I know what this all feels like but to say we (Phoenix) deserve what we get is crazy. As far as I know we weren't trying everything possible to rip the Jets away from Winnepeg. I believe we were one of the cities that had the facilities to give a home to a team that had no owner that wanted to have a team in Winnepeg. Again, I feel horrible for those fans but this is not a Karma situation at all.

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08-12-2009, 05:38 PM
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and as far as the Southern Ontario market getting another team, will never happen with Tannenbaum and the Leafs, as he has allegedly said "there is no number in the world that would satisfy our territorial rights"

it seems that is the biggest hurdle and of course because its Toronto canada has to revovle around it and then wonder why westerners hate them lol

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08-12-2009, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billy blaze View Post
From: Shoot the puck Coyotes:

"How can you say you are getting screwed? The fans of Phoenix are the ones getting screwed no matter how this turns out. I hope you guys get another team someday but to talk about how you are getting screwed when the only thing right now that will make you happy is ripping another city's team out from under them is ridiculous."

Well pot the kettle in Winnipeg is calling-


you didn't support your team, you didn't attend the games in large enough numbers, your revenues are lacklustre, you blame management, coaching, losing for your lack of support for YOUR team, I acknowledge their is a small passionate base of fans in Phoenix, but it's not enough, the Phoenix posters on this board beg for another five years, but what will that really prove, you had your chance, it didn't work, in a city purported to have a population of 5 1/2 million could you say there's 50, 000 who would cough up money for this team in tickets and merch., I see on this board how many of the Coyote fans would be right at home in hockey mad cities as Montreal, Philadelphia, Toronto- there's just not enough of you.

and as far as the Southern Ontario market getting another team, will never happen with Tannenbaum and the Leafs, as he has allegedly said "there is no number in the world that would satisfy our territorial rights"
I don't believe that for a second. The CCB has already suggested that no one team will hold a veto.
This is about growing the game. Can't grow it where people are hockey crazy.
You can grow it in KC, Houston, Vegas, or whatever large American city has an interest.

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08-12-2009, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbud View Post
and as far as the Southern Ontario market getting another team, will never happen with Tannenbaum and the Leafs, as he has allegedly said "there is no number in the world that would satisfy our territorial rights"

it seems that is the biggest hurdle and of course because its Toronto canada has to revovle around it and then wonder why westerners hate them lol
My questions is why do Westerners care either way in this situation? It's not like they are going to support a Hamilton franchise, it won't have any affect on them.

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08-12-2009, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by jkrdevil View Post
My questions is why do Westerners care either way in this situation? It's not like they are going to support a Hamilton franchise, it won't have any affect on them.
You're from Maryland, why do you care?

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08-12-2009, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox X Mulder View Post
I don't believe that for a second. The CCB has already suggested that no one team will hold a veto.
This is about growing the game. Can't grow it where people are hockey crazy.
You can grow it in KC, Houston, Vegas, or whatever large American city has an interest.
can't if you have existing franchises (Vegas, Houston, majority owned by a NHL franchise) or a market like KC that cannot support one long-term, Fox

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08-12-2009, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by ShootThePuckCoyotes View Post
original post by Brodie
How guilty do you feel for ripping someone else's team away? I'm sorry, but why should anyway feel sorry for fans of a team that was already ripped away from one fanbase because they might have to suffer the same fate? Karma.

I feel horrible for the Jets fans especially now that I know what this all feels like but to say we (Phoenix) deserve what we get is crazy. As far as I know we weren't trying everything possible to rip the Jets away from Winnepeg. I believe we were one of the cities that had the facilities to give a home to a team that had no owner that wanted to have a team in Winnepeg. Again, I feel horrible for those fans but this is not a Karma situation at all.
As it goes its not as ive posted fans in PHo at fault Canada lost 3 teams GB has never done 1 thing to bring one back and fans regardless of what he may think have not forgotten and that issue will sit and be there until he does , fans in any given place deserve better respect .

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08-12-2009, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brodie
How guilty do you feel for ripping someone else's team away? I'm sorry, but why should anyway feel sorry for fans of a team that was already ripped away from one fanbase because they might have to suffer the same fate? Karma.
This seems a very unfair argument to me. If someone who could have afforded to keep the Jets in Winnipeg had stepped up, they'd be there still.

Some HAS stepped up in Phoenix, therefore they should keep their team.

Count me as the first to support a team moving if there is no one willing and able to run it where it is. And if Hamilton is the best place to go? So be it, give it to Hamilton. It'll probably thrive... as long as the Canadian dollar stays high.

...as long as Balsillie isn't involved, until such time as he becomes accepted by the league's BOG.

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08-12-2009, 05:44 PM
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You're from Maryland, why do you care?
Because I am interested in the business side of sport, how it operates, and theories behind it that is why I am following it.

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08-12-2009, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Crazy_Ike View Post
This seems a very unfair argument to me. If someone who could have afforded to keep the Jets in Winnipeg had stepped up, they'd be there still.

Some HAS stepped up in Phoenix, therefore they should keep their team.

Count me as the first to support a team moving if there is no one willing and able to run it where it is. And if Hamilton is the best place to go? So be it, give it to Hamilton. It'll probably thrive... as long as the Canadian dollar stays high.

...as long as Balsillie isn't involved, until such time as he becomes accepted by the league's BOG.
That's what revenue sharing is for, isn't it?

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08-12-2009, 05:46 PM
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if NHL thought stance was iron clad

-why have Toronto abstain in vote on Balsillie, just because they would receive territorial fee possibly would not preclude them from casting

- NHL offers up the four others, but will not state relo fee or territorial rights fee- if the votes are not there why the reluctance- avoidance of Leafs suing?

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08-12-2009, 05:47 PM
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Because I am interested in the business side of sport, how it operates, and theories behind it that is why I am following it.
maybe bbud has the same reasons as you then.

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08-12-2009, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by billy blaze View Post
you show total lack of understanding of previous attempts of Hamilton to get teams, in fact when Ottawa and TB were awarded, it was a well known fact that Hamilton had by far the best bid and best presentation- Tim Horton's founder Ron Joyce made the mistake of asking "what is the territorial fee" - to this day it has never been answered, and if NHL (Leafs) have there way, it never will.
Was this the expansion where Hamilton's bid didn't have a prospective owner and was considered so sub-par the deposit was refunded? Or was that later?

And again, this particular case isn't about Hamilton. The entire legal case is about changing ownership groups without league approval, and the second legal case will be about an owner moving a team without league approval. They could want to move them to Portland, Moscow or Mexico City and the arguments would still be the same.

Now, the next time expansion/movement is on the table with BoG approval and someone other than JB makes a bid for a team in Hamilton (because JB has done too much damage with his own reputation to ever get approved by the BoG at this point) and shenanigans ensue, then that will be screwing over Hamilton. But that's not the problem on the table at this point.

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08-12-2009, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billy blaze View Post
From: Shoot the puck Coyotes:

"How can you say you are getting screwed? The fans of Phoenix are the ones getting screwed no matter how this turns out. I hope you guys get another team someday but to talk about how you are getting screwed when the only thing right now that will make you happy is ripping another city's team out from under them is ridiculous."

Well pot the kettle in Winnipeg is calling-


you didn't support your team, you didn't attend the games in large enough numbers, your revenues are lacklustre, you blame management, coaching, losing for your lack of support for YOUR team, I acknowledge their is a small passionate base of fans in Phoenix, but it's not enough, the Phoenix posters on this board beg for another five years, but what will that really prove, you had your chance, it didn't work, in a city purported to have a population of 5 1/2 million could you say there's 50, 000 who would cough up money for this team in tickets and merch., I see on this board how many of the Coyote fans would be right at home in hockey mad cities as Montreal, Philadelphia, Toronto- there's just not enough of you.

and as far as the Southern Ontario market getting another team, will never happen with Tannenbaum and the Leafs, as he has allegedly said "there is no number in the world that would satisfy our territorial rights"
We have not had "our" chance. We were blindsided by this whole thing. Do I wish there were more fans on a consistent basis? Sure I do. I am hoping that with a second chance we will be able to prove that we can make this work. It has also been proven that if we sold out every game this year Moyes would have still lost money so I don't think the fans are to blame for this mess. Moyes still has to be held responsible for is financial decisions that were BAD decisions.

Some of you people act like hockey is your God given right to have and it just makes me sick. It is a privilege to have the NHL hockey in Phoenix and if we get a second chance and screw it up then take them but damit I want a chance to fight for them!

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08-12-2009, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy_Ike View Post
This seems a very unfair argument to me. If someone who could have afforded to keep the Jets in Winnipeg had stepped up, they'd be there still.

Some HAS stepped up in Phoenix, therefore they should keep their team.

Count me as the first to support a team moving if there is no one willing and able to run it where it is. And if Hamilton is the best place to go? So be it, give it to Hamilton. It'll probably thrive... as long as the Canadian dollar stays high.

...as long as Balsillie isn't involved, until such time as he becomes accepted by the league's BOG.
which is why Bettman has steadfastly stated time and again he'll do all he can to keep the franchise where it is, no matter which of the 30 is targeted

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08-12-2009, 05:50 PM
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You're from Maryland, why do you care?
stronger Canadian presence helps and we simply want to see more teams here we supply half the players why shouldnt we have more here , it should come as no surprise we have way more canadians involved in the game why would we not be dedicated fans and support more home teams?
As a fun fact many yeasr ago [ my fathers younger years[ 1940s - 50s ] Toronto was the western team for many and watch HNIC games when leafs visit Vancouver , calgary and such you see many leaf jerseys still today .
You would need a history lesson on canadian culture i do not have time or space to give you but there are reasons we care.

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08-12-2009, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by ShootThePuckCoyotes View Post
We have not had "our" chance. We were blindsided by this whole thing. Do I wish there were more fans on a consistent basis? Sure I do. I am hoping that with a second chance we will be able to prove that we can make this work. It has also been proven that if we sold out every game this year Moyes would have still lost money so I don't think the fans are to blame for this mess. Moyes still has to be held responsible for is financial decisions that were BAD decisions.

Some of you people act like hockey is your God given right to have and it just makes me sick. It is a privilege to have the NHL hockey in Phoenix and if we get a second chance and screw it up then take them but damit I want a chance to fight for them!
There should be more fans like you. Good for the game.

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08-12-2009, 05:51 PM
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maybe bbud has the same reasons as you then.
Maybe he does and I wasn't questioning him for following this.

But his statement was framed in the context of Toronto blocking a Hamilton franchise and and thus others getting screwed. Then he brought up the Westerners thing. So thus my question on what one has to do with another.

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