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Gaborik: Why no injury discount?

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Old
08-10-2009, 08:29 PM
  #1
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Gaborik: Why no injury discount?

All of us constantly clicking refresh on July 1st saw the initial report of 5 years 5.75 million per year for Gaborik. When I saw this I thought to myself this is a very fair deal but still a risky one because of gaborik's injury history. Then when the numbers were corrected to 5 years 7.5 million I simply could not understand it. I know he is an elite talent but hes never really shown that he can be a hart trophy/art ross trophy contender. He's more on the periphery of the top 10 forwards.

I mean the basic thing I am struggling with is how much would we have paid Gaborik if he didnt have the injury history? I dont want to turn this thread into a "Sather sucks at giving out free agent contracts" discussion but I just don't see how we weren't given a break in either the length of the deal or the dollars per year. Were we so desperate to get any elite scorer that we could? I'm not bashing the player but it seems like it was a short-sighted signing in that we simply picked the guy that was available, not the guy that is the right guy to build around. Reminiscent of Drury and Gomez you could say.

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08-10-2009, 08:32 PM
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Any time a team goes after a player in free agency they are going to have to overpay in some way.

I don't think the 7.5 is really a bad number. 5 years is kind of strange though, IMO.

And yes, we were that desperate for a scorer.

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08-10-2009, 08:32 PM
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pwoz
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If he's healthy he's a 1.2 (or whatever) PPG player. If he's injured, the Rangers have +7.5m cap space.

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08-10-2009, 08:33 PM
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because injury discounts don't really happen unless the player has played like 30 games per season for the last 4 seasons and is trying desperately to resurrect their career.

That's not the case with Gaborik, he is an elite talent and was on the market. there just was no chance of an "injury discount"

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08-10-2009, 08:38 PM
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Gaborik at $7.5 million is not a bad deal especially considering the pace he can score points at. He is worth more than what Sather gave him and maybe have taken less money per year in order to have a longer contract.

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08-10-2009, 08:39 PM
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Because he wasnt about to take a pay cut after hitting unrestricted free agency for the first time in his career. He was making 7.5 before too and he must truly believe his injuries are done and was able to prove that to the teams persuing him.

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08-10-2009, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MSG the place to be View Post
I know he is an elite talent but hes never really shown that he can be a hart trophy/art ross trophy contender. He's more on the periphery of the top 10 forwards.
Those players are getting over $8m. For someone right around the top 10 forwards, $7.5m is just about right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NickyZ View Post
I don't think the 7.5 is really a bad number. 5 years is kind of strange though, IMO.
He's 27 so he wouldn't exactly be out of his prime at the end of 5 years if he lasted that long. The injury concerns are valid, but in this situation, I don't think they have a bearing on the length of the contract. If he was 30, then different story.

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08-10-2009, 08:47 PM
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What I don't understand is how he's always injured.

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08-10-2009, 08:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pwoz View Post
If he's healthy he's a 1.2 (or whatever) PPG player. If he's injured, the Rangers have +7.5m cap space.
It doesn't quite work that way with injuries. If a player is placed on LTIR you can replace his salary while he is out of the lineup but you can't bank it.

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08-10-2009, 08:53 PM
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Glen Sather

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Old
08-10-2009, 08:57 PM
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pwoz
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It's true Gaborik had his injury problems, but didn't he sit out most of last year, come back, and dominate? I trust our medical staff.

Also, acquiring Gaborik required 0 players/prospects/draft picks being traded.

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08-10-2009, 09:00 PM
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You did get a discount. You got him for 5 years instead of the 8-10 he would have gotten if he didn't average 65 games a year.

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08-10-2009, 09:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
What I don't understand is how he's always injured.
He had "deficiencies" in both hips. The deficiencies caused chronically recurring injuries to his upper legs, primarily his groin. He had surgery on his left hip in January, and surgery on his right hip the previous season. Supposedly, the surgeries should completely alleviate the structural problems that caused the frequent injuries.

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08-10-2009, 09:55 PM
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If he is healthy, he is a top 5 goal scorer in the league.

Ovechkin
Kovalchuk
Heatley
Gaborik

When he is healthy, he is also above a PPG player.

He creates his own opportunities, he finishes the opportunities he creates for himself.

He is absolutely an elite player.

If he is healthy, he is worth the contract. You pay big for your elite players.

That's why the Gomez and Drury contracts are terrible. They're not elite players, but they are being paid like elite players.

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08-10-2009, 10:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
If he is healthy, he is a top 5 goal scorer in the league.

Ovechkin
Kovalchuk
Heatley
Gaborik

When he is healthy, he is also above a PPG player.

He creates his own opportunities, he finishes the opportunities he creates for himself.

He is absolutely an elite player.

If he is healthy, he is worth the contract. You pay big for your elite players.

That's why the Gomez and Drury contracts are terrible. They're not elite players, but they are being paid like elite players.
spot on.

if gaborik had been healthy and scoring like hes capable of, he probably wouldnt be a nyr right now.

like anything else in life, buy low, sell high. we got him on sale. thats where value comes from and thus, that was our discount.

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08-10-2009, 10:19 PM
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It's the UFA market. It's a bidding war. 7.5M is what other teams offered I'm sure as well. Look at Gomez. He's making 7.3M and Montreal happily took him off our hands. They were reportedly bidding on his services when he was a UFA so obviously he was highly sought after for his price to get so high.

We needed a scorer so Slats put in the highest bid.

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08-10-2009, 10:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MSG the place to be View Post
All of us constantly clicking refresh on July 1st saw the initial report of 5 years 5.75 million per year for Gaborik. When I saw this I thought to myself this is a very fair deal but still a risky one because of gaborik's injury history. Then when the numbers were corrected to 5 years 7.5 million I simply could not understand it. I know he is an elite talent but hes never really shown that he can be a hart trophy/art ross trophy contender. He's more on the periphery of the top 10 forwards.

I mean the basic thing I am struggling with is how much would we have paid Gaborik if he didnt have the injury history? I dont want to turn this thread into a "Sather sucks at giving out free agent contracts" discussion but I just don't see how we weren't given a break in either the length of the deal or the dollars per year. Were we so desperate to get any elite scorer that we could? I'm not bashing the player but it seems like it was a short-sighted signing in that we simply picked the guy that was available, not the guy that is the right guy to build around. Reminiscent of Drury and Gomez you could say.
i made a thread like this about a month ago and it got closed.

People seem that he won't get hurt anymore, and that he is one of the best players in the league.

So in there eye's he should sign for a discount even though he only played 17 games last season

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08-10-2009, 10:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alphaqup View Post
It's the UFA market. It's a bidding war. 7.5M is what other teams offered I'm sure as well. Look at Gomez. He's making 7.3M and Montreal happily took him off our hands. They were reportedly bidding on his services when he was a UFA so obviously he was highly sought after for his price to get so high.

We needed a scorer so Slats put in the highest bid.
I agree. Slats offers some dumb contracts, but I'm fairly certain that they're not gross overbids when compared to offers from other teams. I doubt he's offered any A-rod/Texas deals, when he just jumps in and damn near doubles any other offers out there. If Gaborik signed for $7.5, I'm sure it's because other teams were offering over $7M as well.

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08-10-2009, 10:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MSG the place to be View Post
All of us constantly clicking refresh on July 1st saw the initial report of 5 years 5.75 million per year for Gaborik. When I saw this I thought to myself this is a very fair deal but still a risky one because of gaborik's injury history. Then when the numbers were corrected to 5 years 7.5 million I simply could not understand it. I know he is an elite talent but hes never really shown that he can be a hart trophy/art ross trophy contender. He's more on the periphery of the top 10 forwards.

I mean the basic thing I am struggling with is how much would we have paid Gaborik if he didnt have the injury history? I dont want to turn this thread into a "Sather sucks at giving out free agent contracts" discussion but I just don't see how we weren't given a break in either the length of the deal or the dollars per year. Were we so desperate to get any elite scorer that we could? I'm not bashing the player but it seems like it was a short-sighted signing in that we simply picked the guy that was available, not the guy that is the right guy to build around. Reminiscent of Drury and Gomez you could say.
If Gaborik was clean physically, he would have commanded more dollars and more years.

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08-10-2009, 10:56 PM
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Marian Hossa just signed a 12 year deal and he already needs shoulder surgery, and he's the Cup finals kiss of death.

At the end of the day, Gabby got what he's worth, and if the Rangers tried to lowball him, he may have gone elsewhere, and Sather didn't want that.

Market determines price. Someone probably offered similar money to Kotalik too. I guarantee someone offered similar money and term to Redden too. People don't want to think this because it's more fun to bash the GM, but these numbers aren't just out of thin air.

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Old
08-10-2009, 11:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
If he is healthy, he is a top 5 goal scorer in the league.

Ovechkin
Kovalchuk
Heatley
Gaborik

When he is healthy, he is also above a PPG player.

He creates his own opportunities, he finishes the opportunities he creates for himself.

He is absolutely an elite player.

If he is healthy, he is worth the contract. You pay big for your elite players.

Gaborik has averaged 27.4 goals/season during his 8 seasons, playing with injuries for a defensive oriented team. His average per 82 games is 35.8 goals with highs of 30, 30, 30, 38 & 42.

There's no arguing he's a perennial all-star, when healthy. But top 5 goal scorer?

T.Vanek, M.Hossa, Z.Parise, J.Carter, S.Gagne, R.Nash, E.Staal, J.Iginla, E.Malkin, S.Crosby & H.Zetterberg are at least 10 others who come to mind who have either (1) averaged more goals per 82 games than Gabby, or (2) have had better career highs.

Also, you can count on most of the above to be healthy whereas you can't be sure about Gabby. I've seen this "top 5" thing on these forums so much. Why can't we just say he's a top 20 forward, hope he have better luck with him than we did with Lindros & Bure, and leave it at that?

After we've kicked some butt in the playoffs, then we can brag...

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08-11-2009, 01:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jxmarts View Post
Gaborik has averaged 27.4 goals/season during his 8 seasons, playing with injuries for a defensive oriented team. His average per 82 games is 35.8 goals with highs of 30, 30, 30, 38 & 42.

There's no arguing he's a perennial all-star, when healthy. But top 5 goal scorer?

T.Vanek, M.Hossa, Z.Parise, J.Carter, S.Gagne, R.Nash, E.Staal, J.Iginla, E.Malkin, S.Crosby & H.Zetterberg are at least 10 others who come to mind who have either (1) averaged more goals per 82 games than Gabby, or (2) have had better career highs.

Also, you can count on most of the above to be healthy whereas you can't be sure about Gabby. I've seen this "top 5" thing on these forums so much. Why can't we just say he's a top 20 forward, hope he have better luck with him than we did with Lindros & Bure, and leave it at that?

After we've kicked some butt in the playoffs, then we can brag...
I think the truth is in the middle - he is a top ten forward

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08-11-2009, 01:22 AM
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Sometimes it feels like people don't see the diffrence between a 6m salary and a 9.5m salary.

Sundin made 10m in Vancouver last season. Ilya Kovalchuk would make something like that next summer if he hit the market. 7.5m isn't top money, 30% more is top money.

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08-11-2009, 01:37 AM
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The Rangers pay top dollar and longest contract length. That's how Sather gets who he targets. He pulls out all the stops. Like it or not. But that's why the Rangers end up with the player and the other teams don't.

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08-11-2009, 05:06 AM
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The Rangers pay top dollar and longest contract length. That's how Sather gets who he targets. He pulls out all the stops. Like it or not. But that's why the Rangers end up with the player and the other teams don't.
But what is top dollars? Did Redden get top dollars?

Like the best make 50% more then Redden, 50%, is that top dollars? If 6.5m is top dollars, what is 10m?

People set a standard at what a player ideally would make for a dream team with 57m to spend. Facts are that if Drury, Gaborik, Rozi and Redden wouldn't have been signed we would have the team we have now -- without Drury, Gaborik, Rozi and Redden. With that said -- I am not defending Slats in any way. I think he have been very subpar as the GM for the NYR. Maloney and Renney, or Renney and Maloney really, got us out of one of the deepest holes in pro-sports. Slats had stepped back and was mostly acting as a president more then anything. Then he thought it was fun again to be a GM and stepped back in when we started to do well. He obviously hated how Nyls, JJ and co played and tryed to force feed JJ a north-south type of center -- instead of creating a N-S 2nd line behind JJ's line which would have been the right thing to do. He then could not belive that his N-S players instantly were hits on broadway, and he decided to blame JJ and "hand the team over to Gomez and Drury". Which was a disaster. He tryed to replace JJ with Z and Näslund. Which was a disaster. Every year he have turned over like on avg 50% of the roster -- thats nothing but insane in itself. The constant turnover of the roster.

But that doesn't mean that every UFA we sign is "overpaid". If you want to bring in a player from the outside its gooing to cost you and its gooing to cost exactly as much as we are paying these guys; the Drury's, the Gomez's, the Redden's. Thats the type of players we get for the price we are paying for them. We could substract them and replace them with Ed Jovanovski/Sheldon Souray, Ryan Smyth/Daniel Briere or whoever and the results would still be same.

So don't blame Slats for overpaying for vets, blame Slats for not building on what we got and constantly overturning the roster.

We had what many experts called the best line in hockey in Straka-Nyls-JJ. That was a helluva dominant line; and their stats doesn't even show it all. They always pressured 150% more then what showed on the scoreboard (which in itself isn't only positive, but it definitly helped to carry the subpar D's we had who got a free ride)... That line should have been kept intact untill it was carried of the ice. Kimmo Timmonen should have been pursuited -- we needed a PPQB and he is one of the best. We should also have gone after a crease clearer. Then Slats should have gone after a Renney type of center for the 2nd line. Like a Andy McDonald who could have been had cheap. Then now when it would have been time to kick out the vets on the first line we would have had a team and plenty of money to replace JJ and his entourage. JJ wouldn't have brought us a cup -- but instead of planning 2-3 years down the line 2-3 years ago Slats thought that he could turn us into a contender overnight by taking shortcut after shortcut. Thats what we are paying for now.

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