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Two Deals to Fix Edmonton

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Old
08-15-2009, 02:05 AM
  #51
nvan97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eklunds source View Post
That was in 5 minutes of searching, do you want more?
MVP and best player aren't the same thing.

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Old
08-15-2009, 02:14 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by hecktor View Post
These trades are odd and I'm not an Oilers fan.. but, I used to hope LA starts doing well soon but after looking at some of their fans. Yikes. I hope they don't change their ways, if they're this bad just hyping up a team of mostly prospects/up and comers I can't imagine them if they ever start to win hockey games.
All fans overrate their players.

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08-15-2009, 02:14 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by nvan97 View Post
MVP and best player aren't the same thing.
They should be if we're talking about players on a single team. How can your best player (aka most contribution) be less valuable than another player?

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08-15-2009, 02:17 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Paralyzer008 View Post
Why? First of all, Cogliano is a speedy centreman with point potential in the 60's-70's. In my mind, Simmonds is a gritty player with offense who will put up 40-50 points a year.

Handzus is being pretty overrated here. His contract is still bad, especially for a 3rd line centre, and Penner could play better under Pat Quinn.
Handzus is being massively underrated by most of the posters in this thread.

I am not discounting Cogliano at all - he is a very nice player, but be realistic, in no shape or form is a support scorer anywhere near as valuable as a sizable checking center who shuts down Thornton and Getzlaf, night after night, all while STILL out scoring Cogliano last year. I don't believe in using statistics to determne a players worth, but I was still pretty shocked when I looked their 08-09 numbers.

We may agree to disagree, but having a solid checking line center is just flat out more important to winning than a 2nd line offensive center.

Simmonds may never get over the 45-50 point marK, but his worth isn't determine by mere numbers. I know what Cogliano brings too - speed, energy, modest scoring. That would be closer to full value in an even swap, but neither team would make it. The Oilers would want more, and the Kings have no interest in moving Simmonds.

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Old
08-15-2009, 02:18 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Pure View Post
They should be if we're talking about players on a single team. How can your best player (aka most contribution) be less valuable than another player?
Because wins and losses aren't determined by numbers alone.

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08-15-2009, 02:23 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by bland View Post
Because wins and losses aren't determined by numbers alone.
I'm talking overall contributions. Contributions to victories. Involving everything and anything that contributes to wins (tangible and intangible). You can't say you are the best player on your team if your contributions to team success isn't the highest. You can't say you are the most valuable if your contributions to team success isn't the highest. Hence, MVP = best player for a single team.

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08-15-2009, 02:29 AM
  #57
bland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure View Post
I'm talking overall contributions. Contributions to victories. Involving everything and anything that contributes to wins (tangible and intangible). You can't say you are the best player on your team if your contributions to team success isn't the highest. You can't say you are the most valuable if your contributions to team success isn't the highest. Hence, MVP = best player for a single team.
Most of us are going to read "best player" as your most highly skilled, individually talented player.

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08-15-2009, 02:31 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by JMFJ 3 View Post
For the 27,376th time, Simmonds is not going anywhere.
For the 27,377th time, even Gretzky got traded. To say someone will never never get traded is just assuming something we'll all never know.

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Old
08-15-2009, 02:32 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by bland View Post
Most of us are going to read "best player" as your most highly skilled, individually talented player.
I can see that. I don't read it the same way since I think what makes a hockey player good (or better than another) is their overall ability to make a team win.

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Old
08-15-2009, 02:56 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by achtungbaby View Post
For the 27,377th time, even Gretzky got traded. To say someone will never never get traded is just assuming something we'll all never know.
Simmonds had 9 goals and 23 points as a rookie, while playing a solid, good checking 3rd line grinder type of game. Depending on which site you look at, Simmonds was between 160-180 lbs last season so he's still got some growing to do.

Trying to judge the value of a player like Simmonds is difficult because perhaps he can improve into a 2nd line winger. The Kings are high on the kid, so obviously it's going to take a lot to convince LA to trade him. If Simmonds doesn't improve enough to be a 2nd line power-forward type player, he's still proven he can be an effective 3rd liner who can play a gritty game. There's not much of a reason for LA to trade him, because of the potential he has. It's not like he's spent 4 years playing major junior and then 2 or 3 years in the AHL to get to being an effective NHL 3rd liner. The "he'll never be traded" comments are obviously an exaggeration, but the proposals here aren't the type of deals where LA would consider moving him in.

As for the people mentioning Brown, I'll ask it again since it still doesn't seem to sink in. What team signs a player who is a 30 goal scorer and led the NHL in hits to a 6 year contract extension under market value, named the player captain, then trades the player 1 year into that contract and captaincy? Brown will turn 25 during the season and has 5 years left on his contract with a cap hit of $3.175 mil. Where's the incentive for LA to trade Brown?

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Old
08-15-2009, 02:56 AM
  #61
bland
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Originally Posted by Pure View Post
I can see that. I don't read it the same way since I think what makes a hockey player good (or better than another) is their overall ability to make a team win.
I agree, which is why in 08-09, Handzus was a better player than Anze Kopitar. Nobody in their right mind would put Handzus above him in the depth chart or in trade value, but he made more of a difference in the outcome of games.

Can the same be said about Cogliano and Horcoff?

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Old
08-15-2009, 03:00 AM
  #62
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I'm not even going to check but I will guess that whoever Edmonton is gettin, their contract runs out at the end of 09/10 season.

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Old
08-15-2009, 03:08 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by achtungbaby View Post
For the 27,377th time, even Gretzky got traded. To say someone will never never get traded is just assuming something we'll all never know.
Don't take homers to heart, and for god's sake don't compare Gretzky to Simmonds

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Old
08-15-2009, 03:15 AM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by achtungbaby View Post
For the 27,377th time, even Gretzky got traded. To say someone will never never get traded is just assuming something we'll all never know.
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=578862

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Old
08-15-2009, 03:17 AM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paralyzer008 View Post
Penner > Handzus
Cogliano > Simmonds

Fail

Maybe if Buffalo added Sekera or Gaustad then the Oilers might do that one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OilGagner89 View Post
Penner = Handzus

That looks more like it..
Handuz is a wash more or less

I have a problem with Cogliano for Simmonds. While oiler fans would like to get out from under Penner's contract--giving up Cogliano for Simmonds might be too much to ask. Cogliano's upside is far greater then Simmonds(LA fans I am sure will disagree)

The trade just shaves 1 year off of a 4million contract and that is not that big of an thing.

Depending on which report you read Simonds is projected to be a 3rd line nhler--cogliano is developing into a good looking second line center.

From the Kings point of view--they would not want the dog penner and they have a glutten of centers coming up the pipeline

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Welcome to Edmonton Connor McDavid--the rest of you HA HA HA HA HA HA
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Old
08-15-2009, 03:24 AM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qaasim View Post
To Edmonton:
Handzus (4.0)
Simmonds (0.875)

To Los Angeles:
Penner (4.25)
Cogliano (1.133)



EDIT:
To Buffalo:
Visnovsky (5.6)
Nilsson (2.0)

To Edmonton:
Pominville (5.3)
Tallinder (2.56)
second deal hurts th oilers. Pominville's numbers are helped by playing Vanek--when he was taken off that line his numbers fell

As fro Tallinder--he is in an injury prone d-man over the past 4 season and has about 1/5 the skills lubor has.

I would not trade Visnovsky for Pominville--let alone adding in Nilsson

asn I pointed out on the oiler board--the oiler collapse started after Lubor got injured--he is in Souray's shadow as for how good he is

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Old
08-15-2009, 03:27 AM
  #67
bland
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Originally Posted by Patrick96 View Post
Don't take homers to heart, and for god's sake don't compare Gretzky to Simmonds
Its not a homer statement to say that there is no reason to consider moving a kid like Simmonds - of course there are better players out there. We know Gretzky got traded - we were here when it happened both times.

The Kings have NO reason to deal him for any single, rotten proposal that has been made on these boards so far. Name a good one and we will go for it - this doesn't make us over value our prospects. It makes us realistic in knowing that our young players, especially the ones who are as impressive as Simmonds, aren't going to be dealt yet especially for disappointments like Penner.

These things don't happen in a vacuum - there is no reason to deal our kids right now, even if it is for equal value, because we don't know the potential of Simmonds. He keeps exceeding expectations - you ride that horse until you know what it can give you. He may not be worth Cogliano straight up now, but we have a pretty good hunch that he is going to keep on getting better and better because that is what he has done so far. It's not all that unreasonable to think he could become an Adam Deadmarsh level player - you don't move that when you don't have to.

At what freaking point does every single statement need to be qualified around here?

Isn't there at least some base level of respect that some things can just be assumed?

For ****'* sake, doesn't anyone on this board believe that somebody can say something without it being some blind, stupid over-generalization?


Last edited by bland: 08-15-2009 at 04:59 AM.
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Old
08-15-2009, 04:56 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Iggy-4-50 View Post
Stop trying to fix the Oilers, their just fine the way they are!
LMAO!

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Old
08-15-2009, 05:42 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by The Vagabond View Post
second deal hurts th oilers. Pominville's numbers are helped by playing Vanek--when he was taken off that line his numbers fell
Not saying that Pominville is necessarily better than Visnovsky, but he did have three solid scoring seasons so far, only one of them partially with Vanek on his line.

06/07 he played with Briere and Hecht, and 07/08 I think mostly with Roy and Hecht.

While the value might be there, I don't see how such a trade would improve Buffalo. They deal from a weakness to acquire a strength. Yes, they don't have an elite PMD, but they are loaded with NHL-defensemen while having a lack of established scoring-wingers. Having a very good winger and a good defenseman beats having a very good defenseman and no established winger. Nilsson is no replacement.

They would have to do another deal to acquire a scoring-winger, and it's not like cheap scoring-wingers are going around for next to nothing.

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Old
08-15-2009, 09:15 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by C For Choke View Post
Vishnovsky is defenseman though?

Unless...

Vis = best player
Souray = best defenseman
Souray =/= best player

I don't know how that works.

Of course, if the post saying Souray was the best defenseman was before the Oilers acquired Vis, I'd understand where you're coming from.
keep grasping at this buddy, it's very relevant. Roloson was maybe our most valuable player last year, he stood on his head. Is he the best, most talented player? no chance, and plus he's not even an Oiler right now. Souray was by far our best dman last year, had a great year, better than any Flame dman last year, by far. Visnovsky was hurt, so no chance to be our best dman, but in the last years before he was dealt to the Oil, he was top 3 in dmen scoring, so a lot of Oiler fans see him as the most talented Oiler based on his past. Hemsky is easily our best forward right now. He lead the team in goals, assists, and points last year. No one is saying that Cogs or Gagner are the best player on our team right now.

Understand?

Worry about your own team.

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Old
08-15-2009, 10:43 AM
  #71
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If you are going to fix Edmonton add a legit first line player to play with Hemsky, to tell you the truth that is all they really need (depending on how Knabby plays) That is why they went after Heatley, there were Jarg rumors, They need a player to play alongside Hemsky so Horcoff can go back to being a second line centerl.

A guy like Savard, Kessle, or someone who can play first line minutes

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Old
08-15-2009, 11:22 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Patrick96 View Post
Don't take homers to heart, and for god's sake don't compare Gretzky to Simmonds
Good point.

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Old
08-15-2009, 11:32 AM
  #73
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We need more than two deals.

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Old
08-15-2009, 12:31 PM
  #74
achtungbaby
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Originally Posted by bland View Post
At what freaking point does every single statement need to be qualified around here?

Isn't there at least some base level of respect that some things can just be assumed?

For ****'* sake, doesn't anyone on this board believe that somebody can say something without it being some blind, stupid over-generalization?
Um, you just did it yourself man. It's a hockey board discussion, it is what it is.

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Old
08-15-2009, 12:37 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Doughty Number 8 View Post
The first deall = lolwut?

I wouldnt trade Handzus straight up for that package



Cogs is worth more than Handzus (overpaid 3rd line centre) and Simmonds (3rd or 4th line energy player who is nice to have but has no where near the offensive ability of Cogs).

Talk about over-valuing your own players....

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