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Old
08-15-2009, 10:32 AM
  #26
Zetterberg4Captain
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cheechoo simply isnt very good and not worth 3 plus million a season. Nobody wants him. He is an albetros kinda like redden or rozisval both are.

Michalek is a decent young talent but Murray will want/need more. if he is to have to take on Cheechoo's contract he will need to be rewarded to do so. More picks, prospects and/or both..

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Old
08-15-2009, 09:05 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Quincy View Post
For Boston the base of the deal sucks.

There's no way we deal Kessel, Bergeron and Wheeler, and certainly not for the return we are getting.

If SJ and OTT want to make a Heatley deal fine, but don't involve Boston in it.
Sorry i forgot that you can't say anything on HF without being extremely precise...

The "base" is nice meant i dunno... the main players involved, and where they are going? And i never said Boston weren't giving up too much. Remove Wheeler, add something going back to Boston and it's all good?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Spanky View Post
So Setoguchi is less valuable than Heatley to a team with no financial constraints? That was exactly my point - Setoguchi is a more valuable commodity exactly because almost every team is under some kind of financial constraint, whether it be through the cap or an internal budget imposed by the owners.
You said Setoguchi has more value than Heatley. You probably meant "is a more realistic/easiest choice for teams with a tight cap". That doesn't mean a team with cap problems wouldn't trade a 2M$ player for a player of Heatley's caliber and fix their cap after. Example, the Rangers would bury Redden in the AHL if that would happen. 50 goals scorers (averages 47 goals/82 games in the last 4 seasons) don't grow on trees. When you can pick one, you do it.

And i'm not sure any team with cap space would pick Setoguchi before Heatley...

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Old
08-15-2009, 09:33 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xspyrit View Post
You said Setoguchi has more value than Heatley. You probably meant "is a more realistic/easiest choice for teams with a tight cap".
And i'm not sure any team with cap space would pick Setoguchi before Heatley...
Quote:
I would say Setoguchi himself has more value than Heatley. 30 goal scorer on an entry level deal > 50 goal scorer on 7.5/yr contract
Still need work on those reading comprehension skills.

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Old
08-15-2009, 09:34 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xspyrit View Post
You said Setoguchi has more value than Heatley. You probably meant "is a more realistic/easiest choice for teams with a tight cap". That doesn't mean a team with cap problems wouldn't trade a 2M$ player for a player of Heatley's caliber and fix their cap after. Example, the Rangers would bury Redden in the AHL if that would happen. 50 goals scorers (averages 47 goals/82 games in the last 4 seasons) don't grow on trees. When you can pick one, you do it.

And i'm not sure any team with cap space would pick Setoguchi before Heatley...
Value is relative to the situation and the possessor. To the Sharks, Setoguchi holds more value than Heatley would and yes his cap hit is a factor in that. The Sharks and any team that is cap-strapped and has a lack of cheap talent will agree with that line of reasoning. Yes, you have teams that are willing to pay well over the cap and stash whatever they need in their farm but only a handful of owners are willing to do that.

No team all things being equal will take Setoguchi over Heatley. However, in the real world that we live in and the current structure of the NHL, it's not equal.

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Old
08-15-2009, 09:36 PM
  #30
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Boston trade a line good for 10 years.

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Old
08-15-2009, 09:40 PM
  #31
Dr Quincy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xspyrit View Post
Sorry i forgot that you can't say anything on HF without being extremely precise...

The "base" is nice meant i dunno... the main players involved, and where they are going? And i never said Boston weren't giving up too much. Remove Wheeler, add something going back to Boston and it's all good?


Yeah I know what you meant by "base" and no the "base" isn't good. Boston isn't trading 3 young, core players in one deal which reduces their overall depth and ties up too much money in one player they have no interest in.

With Krejci out to start the season your trade leaves Boston's lines looking like:

Sturm-Savard-Heatley
Lucic-Sobotka-Ryder
Bitz-Begin-Kobasew
Lehtonen-Marchand-Thornton
Whitfield

That's a huge downgrade from the team that was the #1 seed in the east last year, and a needless one.

There really is no reason for Boston to be in this deal. If Ottawa wants to deal Heatley they should find a good package out there, but it's not going to be from Boston who has cap issues they are trying to deal with. That is the "base" of the deal and it is why Boston will not be involved.

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Old
08-15-2009, 09:49 PM
  #32
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Let's trade Heatley to the Grand Ole Opery for Carrie Underwood and a clarinet.

Done Deal on Ottawa's part

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Old
08-16-2009, 12:15 AM
  #33
Xspyrit
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Spanky View Post
Still need work on those reading comprehension skills.
Still need to get your head checked... Where did you say that IF A TEAM HAD THE CAP SPACE, they would pick Heatley before Setoguchi???

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Spanky View Post
I would say Setoguchi himself has more value than Heatley. 30 goal scorer on an entry level deal > 50 goal scorer on 7.5/yr contract
??? You only said your basic usual ******** and i'm just adding to your tought, but as usual, you just don't get it, or DON'T WANT to get it.

So, don't you think the Rangers, for example, would pick Heatley before Setoguchi if they had the cap space? Or any other team for that matter

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
No team all things being equal will take Setoguchi over Heatley. However, in the real world that we live in and the current structure of the NHL, it's not equal.
That's exactly what i'm trying to say. So, overall, if any team was able to move enough salary to make space for Heatley on their team, they probably would, unless they don't need a pure goal scorer. The problem is that most teams can't make that space, for financial reasons (bury players in the AHL and buy-outs is expensive in terms of actual $ dollars)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Quincy View Post
Yeah I know what you meant by "base" and no the "base" isn't good. Boston isn't trading 3 young, core players in one deal which reduces their overall depth and ties up too much money in one player they have no interest in...
Read again :

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xspyrit View Post
The "base" is nice meant i dunno... the main players involved, and where they are going? And i never said Boston weren't giving up too much. Remove Wheeler, add something going back to Boston and it's all good?:


Last edited by Xspyrit: 08-16-2009 at 12:21 AM.
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Old
08-16-2009, 09:46 AM
  #34
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Read again: The base is not good for Boston. We don't want to give up any of the players listed, and we don't want to add the player listed as coming to us. Can I be any clearer?

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Old
08-16-2009, 10:05 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoSenators11 View Post
The basis could be changed...

To OTT: Kessel, Michalek

To SJ: Heatley

To BOS: Erhoff
L-O-freaking-L

So you think losing Kessel is worth picking up Ehrhoff, eh? Please, just stop man. Did you visit Boston and get mugged or something?

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Old
08-16-2009, 11:14 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diskothek View Post
L-O-freaking-L

So you think losing Kessel is worth picking up Ehrhoff, eh? Please, just stop man. Did you visit Boston and get mugged or something?
Not to mention that it puts Boston well over the salary cap. And while SJ is only adding a teeny bit of salary, they are in effect in a worse position under the cap as they now need to replace Erhoff.

Michaelek & Erhoff= 7.4
Heatley & min. salary D= 8.0

So it puts SJ, already in a tight cap situation, in a worse place.

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Old
08-16-2009, 01:13 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Quincy View Post
Read again: The base is not good for Boston. We don't want to give up any of the players listed, and we don't want to add the player listed as coming to us. Can I be any clearer?
Isn't opinion vs opinion? Unless your opinion is the truth or the same as Bruins GM... I want sources then

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Old
08-16-2009, 01:31 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Xspyrit View Post
Isn't opinion vs opinion? Unless your opinion is the truth or the same as Bruins GM... I want sources then
That's some weird logic right there. GMs usually don't comment on rumours, obviously you have to go by common sense to make up for that. I haven't seen Murray come out an specifically state that he won't trade Nick Foligno for a career-AHLer. By your logic that should be enough to assume that it's a viable deal, as long as it is my opinion, regardless of whether it makes any sense or can be based on the GMs behaviour.


As long as you want something, you are the one who has to bring the sources, not just some wishful thinking.

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Old
08-16-2009, 01:31 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Quincy View Post
Not to mention that it puts Boston well over the salary cap. And while SJ is only adding a teeny bit of salary, they are in effect in a worse position under the cap as they now need to replace Erhoff.

Michaelek & Erhoff= 7.4
Heatley & min. salary D= 8.0

So it puts SJ, already in a tight cap situation, in a worse place.
600k isn't anything. San Jose can waive two players and create ~5m worth of space.

Let's not make mastiffs out of chihuahuas

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Old
08-16-2009, 02:05 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Mr.Bridge View Post
600k isn't anything. San Jose can waive two players and create ~5m worth of space.

Let's not make mastiffs out of chihuahuas
It's not necessarily the salary you are adding, it's the addition of salary coupled with the loss of roster players. You now have to go out and replace those guys.

If I'm the sharks, I'm not packaging multiple mid-priced guys and adding one high priced one. Instead, I'm dealing one mid-priced guy and adding multiple low priced ones.

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Old
08-16-2009, 02:08 PM
  #41
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Brutal for the Bruins. Without even getting into arguments about the 'value' of the players involved, this creates too many holes in the Bruins lineup (especially when you include the fact that they would have to trade Kobasew for picks to get under the cap).

Furthermore they have no interest in contracts like Heatley's. The $$$ would be a pain to get under the cap for this year, but in the future would be even more of a headache. In addition to Savard's UFA, the Bruins would have a few important young forwards coming up for RFA during the duration of Heatley's contract.

There are teams in the league that Heatley has a fair amount of value to. The Bruins are not one of them. If we were interested in a player+contract like Heatley we would have at least sniffed around Havlat and Hossa during UFA.

Trades like this make no sense, I mean, take two teams that have trouble completing a trade due to cap reasons. Then add a third team that is in an even more difficult cap situation, and there we go, blockbuster complete.

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Old
08-16-2009, 04:38 PM
  #42
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Boston doesnt want Heatley,hes a POS

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Old
08-16-2009, 10:28 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanderson View Post
That's some weird logic right there. GMs usually don't comment on rumours, obviously you have to go by common sense to make up for that. I haven't seen Murray come out an specifically state that he won't trade Nick Foligno for a career-AHLer. By your logic that should be enough to assume that it's a viable deal, as long as it is my opinion, regardless of whether it makes any sense or can be based on the GMs behaviour.


As long as you want something, you are the one who has to bring the sources, not just some wishful thinking.


Nevermind, nevermind, nevermind please. I'm quitting this rumor board very soon don't worry, it's a total waste of time.

Why do you get implicated in that anyway? The guy said the base is not good and i'm saying it is. Read again the thread before minding other's people business.

It was (for Boston) :

Kessel + Bergeron + Wheeler for Heatley + Sj's 1st

I told the guy the "base" was good. Then he replied "no", then i said "ya i meant the "base", not the value". Then i said "remove Wheeler, add something going back to Boston" (didn't say anything specific)... Then he still said the "base is not good". What am i suppose to say then? "Ok, you're right" ???

If Kessel + Bergeron for Heatley + ??? + 1st isn't good for him, then ok it is HIS opinion. I just don't share it, can i please?

Yep, getting really tired of this rumor board.

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Old
08-16-2009, 10:52 PM
  #44
Dr Quincy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xspyrit View Post


Nevermind, nevermind, nevermind please. I'm quitting this rumor board very soon don't worry, it's a total waste of time.

Why do you get implicated in that anyway? The guy said the base is not good and i'm saying it is. Read again the thread before minding other's people business.

It was (for Boston) :

Kessel + Bergeron + Wheeler for Heatley + Sj's 1st

I told the guy the "base" was good. Then he replied "no", then i said "ya i meant the "base", not the value". Then i said "remove Wheeler, add something going back to Boston" (didn't say anything specific)... Then he still said the "base is not good". What am i suppose to say then? "Ok, you're right" ???

If Kessel + Bergeron for Heatley + ??? + 1st isn't good for him, then ok it is HIS opinion. I just don't share it, can i please?

Yep, getting really tired of this rumor board.
Look here are the many ways the deal is bad for Boston. I'm not talking about "value" but about the basic concept of the deal.

1) Your deal puts Boston over the cap by about 1 million dollars. If we take Wheeler out of the equation as you suggested, the deal puts Boston 2million over the cap.

2) You are taking Boston's best all around and most defensively responsible center off of the team at a time when 1) one of their other centers is out for the first couple months of the season and 2) their other C is a UFA at the end of the year. There is just no reason for Boston to trade Bergeron. It weakens them hugely defensively, it makes Vlad Sobotka or Steve Begin their 2nd line C and makes them a worse team.

3) The Bruins are giving up 3 high performing under 25 year old players for one guy who is making a ton of money. Not only did the deal put the B's over the cap for this year, but it has devastating long term implications next year when we have several other players to resign. It's a horrible move with the cap in mind and a tremendous waste of 3 young resources.

4) Boston was the #1 seed in the east last year. Ok they failed in the playoffs but I don't see the necessity to blow the team up by trading their leading goal scorer, their best 2 way C, and a winger who has the size they are trying to build the team around for one guy who had a whopping 3 more goals than Kessel. The B's are trying to contend now, so the late 1st round pick from SJ doesn't do a whole lot for us.

I'll repeat what I said in another post. After this trade this is what our line up looks like for the 1st couple of months:

Heatley-Savard-Ryder
Sturm-Sobotka-Kobasew
Lucic-Begin-Bitz
Lehtonen-Marchand-Thornton

That's an AHLer on the 2nd line, 2 4th liners on the 3rd lineW and 2 AHLers on the 4th line.

So yeah, the basics of the deal: Boston trading 3 young players they really like for one very expensive player they don't need, is a total fail for Boston. That doesn't mean that SJ and Ottawa can't work something out, but there is really no reason for Boston to be included.

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Old
08-16-2009, 11:04 PM
  #45
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Kessel Bergeron and Wheeler?
And all we get is Heatley and a 1st? BWHAHAHAH...no thanks

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Old
08-16-2009, 11:18 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Quincy View Post
Look here are the many ways the deal is bad for Boston. I'm not talking about "value" but about the basic concept of the deal.

1) Your deal puts Boston over the cap by about 1 million dollars. If we take Wheeler out of the equation as you suggested, the deal puts Boston 2million over the cap.

2) You are taking Boston's best all around and most defensively responsible center off of the team at a time when 1) one of their other centers is out for the first couple months of the season and 2) their other C is a UFA at the end of the year. There is just no reason for Boston to trade Bergeron. It weakens them hugely defensively, it makes Vlad Sobotka or Steve Begin their 2nd line C and makes them a worse team.

3) The Bruins are giving up 3 high performing under 25 year old players for one guy who is making a ton of money. Not only did the deal put the B's over the cap for this year, but it has devastating long term implications next year when we have several other players to resign. It's a horrible move with the cap in mind and a tremendous waste of 3 young resources.

4) Boston was the #1 seed in the east last year. Ok they failed in the playoffs but I don't see the necessity to blow the team up by trading their leading goal scorer, their best 2 way C, and a winger who has the size they are trying to build the team around for one guy who had a whopping 3 more goals than Kessel. The B's are trying to contend now, so the late 1st round pick from SJ doesn't do a whole lot for us...
1) it's not my deal

2) But when Krejci comes back, Bergeron makes 4.75 as your 3rd line center? Some Sens fans are pissed off because Kelly makes 2.1 as our 3rd line C... imagine

3) Why do you keep saying Bruins give 3 players? Bergeron + Kessel = 2 or maybe i dunno how to count. I AGREED WITH YOU THAT THE OP DEAL WAS TOO MUCH TO GIVE FROM BOSTON. THAT'S WHY I SAID REMOVE WHEELER AND EVEN ADD SOMETHING ELSE BACK TO BOSTON

3) Yes Heatley makes a ton of cash but only 2.75 more than Bergeron. If you think trading Bergeron for Heatley straight-up (means the GM would have to bury some cash elsewhere, let's say put Kobasew in the AHL) wouldn't make your team better, i'm not going to convince you. Keep your opinion for yourself, it's fine

4) This deal (re-arranged) basically replace Kessel by Heatley and Bergeron by a cheaper 3rd line center. The Bruins also save a bit of cap space* (that they don't have actually to sign Kessel) depending on the player X they get. They also add a 1st round pick for the next draft. Only thing to determine would be who is the player X.

* Before you cry "murderer" Kessel (4.0?) + Bergeron (4.75) = 8.75
Heatley = (7.5) + Player X (i'd suggest a cheap/young center)

Finally, this wasn't my proposal at all. I never tought those 3 teams could be trading partners. I only said "the base of the deal is nice" to be nice with the OP... If i only knew, i would have kept my mouth shut because posting an opinion in here is not an easy thing to do.


Last edited by Xspyrit: 08-16-2009 at 11:26 PM.
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Old
08-17-2009, 08:28 AM
  #47
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This trade is almost gonna be impossible with Ottawa and Boston above the cap and SJ squeezed towards it. If your gonna have a clean deal that makes sense 4 all 3 team there will still be one team under the cap and 2 still remain above. My suggestion is:

SJ: gives BOS: Cheechoo and a 1st round pick
while Bos gives SJ: Patrice Bergeron and a 2nd round pick
the Ottawa sends Heatley to SJ for: Patrice Bergeron and the 2nd round pick that belonged to Boston.

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Old
08-17-2009, 08:42 AM
  #48
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I don't think Boston is willing to give up wheeler and in one of the posts i saw that boston should give kessel to Sj for Erhoff. Whomever posted that u must be really crazy, Boston isn't willing to give up their top goal or one of their top goal scorers for an under achieving defenseman who has yet to prove he's established himslef as an elite rearguard in the NHL. U must of suggested that trade so Boston doesn't have to worry about signing Kessel to a large contract, causing a greater issue with the CAP. Well u could just trade Kessel and Kobasew for Heatley (although boston would ends up above the cap) atleast they get more value in return. And as an Ottawa fan I like Kessel and Kobasew more than Bergeron,Michalek,Erhoff, or Cheechoo.

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Old
08-17-2009, 08:42 AM
  #49
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Could this three way deal between Sens-Oilers-Sharks work? I am not sure of the cap constraints of each team??

Sens trade Heatley and Shannon and get back Vlassic, Penner and Setogouchi,
Sharks trade Cheechoo, Vlassic and Setogouchi and get back Heatley and Smid,
Oilers trade Penner and Smid and get back Cheechoo and Shannon,

I think the Sens get fair value on Heater, Oilers move Penner and get two scoring wingers, the Sharks get Heatley, replace Vlassic with a promising young dman and move enough salary(I think) to make it all work(ie move out Cheechoo)

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Old
08-17-2009, 08:46 AM
  #50
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Quote:
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This trade is almost gonna be impossible with Ottawa and Boston above the cap and SJ squeezed towards it. If your gonna have a clean deal that makes sense 4 all 3 team there will still be one team under the cap and 2 still remain above. My suggestion is:

SJ: gives BOS: Cheechoo and a 1st round pick
while Bos gives SJ: Patrice Bergeron and a 2nd round pick
the Ottawa sends Heatley to SJ for: Patrice Bergeron and the 2nd round pick that belonged to Boston.
I forgot to include Erhoff getting sent from SJ to OTT

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