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When will the CBJ make their next splash?

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Old
08-17-2009, 03:17 PM
  #51
General Jacket70
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
Yawn...

I guess only those who want to toe the party line are allowed to have an opinion again.

Scott Howson's job is no harder than the other 29 GMs in this league except for maybe Glen Sather who gets a free pass no matter what he does.

If you call treading water a splash, I guess its true that the key to happiness for some is lowered expectations. Personally, I'd like to see this team contend for the Cup and last year's squad wasn't good enough to do it.
That wasn't much of an eye-opener either.

Oh, and as my ol' boss use to say: "Opinions are like (blank)holes, everyone has one"

If you think that signing Nash was treading water, I see what you mean, although I don't agree.

Fact is, everyone these days wants a short-term fix to a long term problem. Whether its the economy, health-care, or even the arena lease. There's no magic green band-aid thats going to work. Make a plan, stick to the plan, revise small parts of the plan to fit reality, build it for the long term. Works with most things, including hockey teams. Obviously, someone like Sather doesn't have a plan. I tend to belive Howson does and he's doing a good job of sticking to it (although not perfectly; i.e. almost signing Redden). Bottom line, I like what I see and the team has made progress to this point. I'd be disappointed if he abandoned the plan by signing one or a couple of big name free agents this year with the HOPE of leaping forward from a first round sweep to winning the cup.

GO HOWSON !!!--------------------------------------------<towing the line ->


Last edited by General Jacket70: 08-17-2009 at 04:21 PM. Reason: improve my point
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08-17-2009, 03:19 PM
  #52
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There is alot of truth in what you say. We really don't have the cash or the prestige to court the big UFA's.
Are you sure there was any truth in what TW was saying? Sounded like a lot of rubbish.

Howson was going after Redden like a "big UFA" even if we didn't think he was. Remember he wasn't going to lose based on price or term?

We are one year away from Huselius, Commie, RJ, and then getting Vermette and Tyutin in trades. All of them seem "better" then Pahlsson.

As far as offensive players not wanting to play here. Huselius had no issues coming here. He's not exactly a "Hitch" player. He had a small fall off because he missed some games and kept hitting the post. Never mind they had him on the wrong wing for quite a while, as well as the lack of a good center. Vermette came in here and lit it up. JW is about as offensive as you can get and wanted to come back. I'm sure there's some players that don't want to play for Hitch. And there's probably a few that don't want to play for any coach in the league.

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08-17-2009, 03:29 PM
  #53
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Here's why you won't see a "big splash" (other than who the heck is there to sign?)

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=162356

In summary, we all know there is a salary cap, and a salary floor. There is also a midpoint between the two. Teams above that midpoint get no revenue sharing.

So in addition to the internal cap, to keep the budget down, it's also important for when the attendance gets up enough so that revenue sharing becomes an option the team isn't paying too much in salary that they don't qualify for the extra income from the league.

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08-17-2009, 03:32 PM
  #54
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I suppose I should apologize for using the word "splash" because it got us going the wrong direction.

I don't know about most of you but "splashing" isn't dead with the Howson administration... I would say turning over 40% of the roster last summer was the most significant change in CBJ history...

I'd say trading our second best forward for our current best defenseman a splash.

As well as signing a potential "number one center" in Umberger (as he was proposed at the time...)

And replacing our #2 forward with Huselius...

But with all the kids needing resigned in the next 3 years, it doesnt appear to be happening anytime soon. Chimera+ for Ehrhoff would be a significant change, but I dont count on it happening. With that said, a number of teams are still going to have to shed salary (Detroit, Chicago, Ottawa, Boston, and Washington are currently over the cap - and San Jose will be over once they fill their roster) and Howson could be quietly waiting until someone becomes more desperate...

So I guess to answer my own question...I see a move for a defenseman coming during training camp, or in two years after Voracek and Mason resign

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08-17-2009, 03:33 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by General Jacket70 View Post
Fact is, everyone these days wants a short-term fix to a long term problem. Whether its the economy, health-care, or even the arena lease. There's no magic green band-aid thats going to work.
Trudat. I catch myself getting impatient now that we have some momentum. I really am patient generally.


Last edited by Double-Shift Lassť: 08-17-2009 at 03:35 PM. Reason: unneeded
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08-17-2009, 03:48 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
Yawn...

I guess only those who want to toe the party line are allowed to have an opinion again.

Scott Howson's job is no harder than the other 29 GMs in this league except for maybe Glen Sather who gets a free pass no matter what he does.

If you call treading water a splash, I guess its true that the key to happiness for some is lowered expectations. Personally, I'd like to see this team contend for the Cup and last year's squad wasn't good enough to do it.
I disagree with the bolded part. This years team will be much improved over last years team as long as the younger guys (Brassard, Voracek, Filatov, Russell, even Tyutin) keep maturing and improving. That is the plan for improvement. Hoping/planning that the 19-22 yo's have further upside. You are correct, if they don't improve we will be treading water. I disagree that this is lowered expectations too. Hitch/Howson will expect/demand that the youngsters improve, or they will make changes. I think we as fans expect that too. But I'm expecting improvement and will be disappointed if they don't deliver.

Offhad the only player in the declining part of his career, who we should expect less from would be Modin. And he didn't contribute greatly last year anyway. All in all, I don't see how you can call it a plan to tread water.

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08-17-2009, 05:21 PM
  #57
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By "splash" do you mean major event? New player acquisition? Throwing around "stupid money"?

I guess when I hear splash it's something that is a big occurance. In the NHL, to me, that usually means overpayment for underperformance when going outside the organization. One could argue we made a splash by re-signing Rick Nash. I hope he justifies his contract and it simply becomes a good signing.

A splash to me would be trading a guy like Filatov for Phaneuf. that's a whale in my book. I don't see that as a Columbus move. I think Columbus has the youth to develop into a Cup caliber team and although it will surely take more time than some fans would like, it's one way to build a long term winner. I guess the next splash I see is when we have the unfortunate position of trading one of our young players at a time they come into stardom. Let's face it, if Filatov, Voracek, Brassard, Mason and Moore are all successful at the level Rick Nash has shown "success" then there is no way we keep this team together beyond 5 years or so. At that time we'll make our splash by trading one of them for a bundle of young players and picks to replenish.

Just my opinion.....3-5 years down the road for a big deal.

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08-17-2009, 07:02 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
Yawn...

I guess only those who want to toe the party line are allowed to have an opinion again.

Scott Howson's job is no harder than the other 29 GMs in this league except for maybe Glen Sather who gets a free pass no matter what he does.

If you call treading water a splash, I guess its true that the key to happiness for some is lowered expectations. Personally, I'd like to see this team contend for the Cup and last year's squad wasn't good enough to do it.
Last summer, Tampa and the Rangers made all of the biggest splashes. It was a lot like watching a fantasy draft. Were you stunned by their rousing successes on the ice?

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08-17-2009, 07:15 PM
  #59
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Last summer, Tampa and the Rangers made all of the biggest splashes. It was a lot like watching a fantasy draft. Were you stunned by their rousing successes on the ice?
Glen Sather is the GM of the Rangers, no?

These straw men arguments that anyone who is arguing against the team's present budget are automatically arguing that we spend to the cap make me laugh. The choices aren't (a) you spend to the cap, or (b) you have some artificially low budget. There are numbers between there. About 10 million of them.

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08-17-2009, 07:30 PM
  #60
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I disagree with the bolded part. This years team will be much improved over last years team as long as the younger guys (Brassard, Voracek, Filatov, Russell, even Tyutin) keep maturing and improving. That is the plan for improvement. Hoping/planning that the 19-22 yo's have further upside. You are correct, if they don't improve we will be treading water. I disagree that this is lowered expectations too. Hitch/Howson will expect/demand that the youngsters improve, or they will make changes. I think we as fans expect that too. But I'm expecting improvement and will be disappointed if they don't deliver.

Offhad the only player in the declining part of his career, who we should expect less from would be Modin. And he didn't contribute greatly last year anyway. All in all, I don't see how you can call it a plan to tread water.
I'll be honest--I don't think that much of Kris Russell. I think he's a typical fools gold kind of player that shows flashes of greatness but never puts it all together. And he's the only defenseman we have with any real offensive upside. Tyutin is what he is. If you are expecting him to suddenly turn into an offensive stud, I think you are going to be disappointed.

Given the carping we are already hearing from the Hitch lovers about Filatov, I think we'd be best served to trade the kid now to a team that does want him instead of watching him sit on one of the bottom two lines. Use him as the bait to get a defenseman because he's got no place on this team as long as Ken Hitchcock is the coach. I think the kid has a lot of upside, but given what those who claim to be "in the know" about the coach's views on the kid have to say these days, I already have a sense of where this is headed.

I don't see Voracek doing much better on the goal-scoring side. Based on the scouting reports on this kid when he was drafted, my immediate thoughts were Vyborny 2.0, and that sure looks like the type of career he'll put up. He's a nice enough setup player, but I don't see him as a super star.

Brassard has the most potential on this team. Hopefully he can stay healthy. If not, that doesn't bode well for the future for him.

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08-17-2009, 09:33 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
Given the carping we are already hearing from the Hitch lovers about Filatov, I think we'd be best served to trade the kid now to a team that does want him instead of watching him sit on one of the bottom two lines. Use him as the bait to get a defenseman because he's got no place on this team as long as Ken Hitchcock is the coach. I think the kid has a lot of upside, but given what those who claim to be "in the know" about the coach's views on the kid have to say these days, I already have a sense of where this is headed.

There is a ton of truth to that...

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08-17-2009, 09:35 PM
  #62
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There is a ton of truth to that...

Actually, there is not one ounce of truth to that rubbish.

Yuck...the message board equivalent of stepping in dog crap...


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08-17-2009, 10:59 PM
  #63
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There is a ton of truth to that...


I guess for some people the glass will always be half empty.

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08-18-2009, 09:43 AM
  #64
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Last summer, Tampa and the Rangers made all of the biggest splashes. It was a lot like watching a fantasy draft. Were you stunned by their rousing successes on the ice?
Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
Glen Sather is the GM of the Rangers, no?

These straw men arguments that anyone who is arguing against the team's present budget are automatically arguing that we spend to the cap make me laugh. The choices aren't (a) you spend to the cap, or (b) you have some artificially low budget. There are numbers between there. About 10 million of them.
Is Sather also the GM of the Lightning?

Please show my "strawman" argument that discusses any spending amount?

My contention is that teams that develop to their system from within often succeed much more than teams that are constantly trying to make the big splash

This almost seems to be an axiom in professional sports.

I know Philly is extremely happy Nashville tried to make the big Forsberg splash a few years ago. It rebuilt the Flyers.

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08-18-2009, 12:14 PM
  #65
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I know Philly is extremely happy Nashville tried to make the big Forsberg splash a few years ago. It rebuilt the Flyers.
That statement is just hillarious when you consider the Flyers followed up by going hog wild in free agency and giving Danny Briere a huge contract. Yes, there's more of that conservative develop-from-within approach that wins titles. You know, like the Ducks acquiring Scott Niedermayer in free agency and Chris Pronger via trade. Like the Pittsburgh Penguins standing pat at the trade deadline...oh, they acquired Chris Kunitz and Bill Guerin? My bad. Like the Detroit Red Wings developing Rafalski from a mere draft pick to the piece that put them over the top to win a Stanley Cup...didn't draft him you say?

Its all well and good to develop a core of your team from within and that is an important piece to putting together a contending team. However, at some point that alone does not suffice. At some point you have put together the best team you could via drafting and you have to go out and supplement that to get to the next level. If not, you are no different than teams like Atlanta and Florida, who develop guys, watch them leave in free agency or trade them for spare parts at the deadline only to have to start the cycle all over again.

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08-18-2009, 12:48 PM
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Actually, there is not one ounce of truth to that rubbish.

Yuck...the message board equivalent of stepping in dog crap...
I'm sorry, did you or did you not state...

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If he is to spend more time in the AHL it will be because he hasn't shown comittment to doing the other things that help the team win.
...and similar sentiments on several occasions? The tone suggesting that you are presuming he won't do or hasn't to this point done those "other" things. If that is the feeling about the kid, ship him away to a team that wants his talent and get something our coaching staff is willing to use.

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08-18-2009, 01:08 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post

Its all well and good to develop a core of your team from within and that is an important piece to putting together a contending team. However, at some point that alone does not suffice. At some point you have put together the best team you could via drafting and you have to go out and supplement that to get to the next level. If not, you are no different than teams like Atlanta and Florida, who develop guys, watch them leave in free agency or trade them for spare parts at the deadline only to have to start the cycle all over again.
Isn't that exactly what Howson did in the past year? Umberger, Tyutin, Vermette, Commodore, Huselius, Pahlsson -- I think that's the definition of supplement there.

I don't see money as being the central issue. It's the make-up of the assets. Columbus' most valuable pieces are that untouchable "developing core" much of which unfortunately isn't developed enough to make anyone of value truly expendable.
The rock is their promise. The hard place is the fact that many of them haven't arrived yet. CBJ is stuck in the middle. And compounding the issue is the lack of talent depth at certain positions organization wide which makes holding onto these assets all the more important.

Brings us to category two -- guys like Tyutin, Hueslius and Vermette, for example, who'd have value but arguably are more needed here than as trade bait to fill needs. It'd be robbing Peter to pay Paul. You fill a hole, but create another.

Doesn't leave much left in the deck to play with.
And there's the rub.

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08-18-2009, 01:35 PM
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Isn't that exactly what Howson did in the past year? Umberger, Tyutin, Vermette, Commodore, Huselius, Pahlsson -- I think that's the definition of supplement there.

I don't see money as being the central issue. It's the make-up of the assets. Columbus' most valuable pieces are that untouchable "developing core" much of which unfortunately isn't developed enough to make anyone of value truly expendable.
The rock is their promise. The hard place is the fact that many of them haven't arrived yet. CBJ is stuck in the middle. And compounding the issue is the lack of talent depth at certain positions organization wide which makes holding onto these assets all the more important.

Brings us to category two -- guys like Tyutin, Hueslius and Vermette, for example, who'd have value but arguably are more needed here than as trade bait to fill needs. It'd be robbing Peter to pay Paul. You fill a hole, but create another.

Doesn't leave much left in the deck to play with.
And there's the rub.
Who all is the core? I always come back to the Ducks as an example because they reached the ultimate goal of winning a Cup.

Some were up in arms when Lupul was traded. They felt he was a part of the core of the team, had upside, etc., etc. In the end, the value of a Chris Pronger to that team was bigger than the value of Lupul and highly-touted prospect Vladislav Smid. Kunitz and Penner are two other guys who were part of the championship team that were ultimately shipped. Yet the Ducks are still a very competitive team without these alleged "core" guys.

Point being, not every player you develop is a "core" guy at the end of the day.

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08-18-2009, 01:35 PM
  #69
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I'll be honest--I don't think that much of Kris Russell. I think he's a typical fools gold kind of player that shows flashes of greatness but never puts it all together. And he's the only defenseman we have with any real offensive upside. Tyutin is what he is. If you are expecting him to suddenly turn into an offensive stud, I think you are going to be disappointed.

Given the carping we are already hearing from the Hitch lovers about Filatov, I think we'd be best served to trade the kid now to a team that does want him instead of watching him sit on one of the bottom two lines. Use him as the bait to get a defenseman because he's got no place on this team as long as Ken Hitchcock is the coach. I think the kid has a lot of upside, but given what those who claim to be "in the know" about the coach's views on the kid have to say these days, I already have a sense of where this is headed.

I don't see Voracek doing much better on the goal-scoring side. Based on the scouting reports on this kid when he was drafted, my immediate thoughts were Vyborny 2.0, and that sure looks like the type of career he'll put up. He's a nice enough setup player, but I don't see him as a super star.

Brassard has the most potential on this team. Hopefully he can stay healthy. If not, that doesn't bode well for the future for him.
Yipes. Basically your argument here is that all of the kids (except Brassard, if he can stay healthy) have no additional upside. If indeed you are correct, then we are in deep trouble and blowing up the team would absolutely be warranted. We've peaked in 7th place in the West, and can't count on the kids to progress. A huge splash would thus be warranted.

Howson disagrees with your analysis. Howson's proven enough of a talent evaluator and team builder to me in his two years, that I am in with him. Nash resigning long-term this summer further indicates that in the room there is belief in the upside potential as we stand.

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08-18-2009, 01:40 PM
  #70
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Howson was going after Redden like a "big UFA" even if we didn't think he was. Remember he wasn't going to lose based on price or term?

Thats why I said "cash and prestige". Redden's agent pretty well said he wasn't interested in a non contender like Columbus...like Brad Richards before him.

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08-18-2009, 01:58 PM
  #71
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Thats why I said "cash and prestige". Redden's agent pretty well said he wasn't interested in a non contender like Columbus...like Brad Richards before him.
"Pretty well said". Pretty definitive. I call revisionist history on Richards. Regardless, both examples discounted "cash" as a reason.

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08-18-2009, 02:15 PM
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Yipes. Basically your argument here is that all of the kids (except Brassard, if he can stay healthy) have no additional upside. If indeed you are correct, then we are in deep trouble and blowing up the team would absolutely be warranted. We've peaked in 7th place in the West, and can't count on the kids to progress. A huge splash would thus be warranted.
While it's quite possible that all of those prospects will fail, but ol' Casper is doom and gloom.

I doubt Jake will have much of an issue averaging 20 or so goals a year in the near future. Filatov will, very likely, be fine. We'll see what another year of Russell is like, but he's still very young as was brought up too soon.

Keep in mind this is the same person who thought Van should look at Brule as a replacement of Naslund and Comrie was the answer at center, so I wouldn't concern yourself with any player or coaching evaluations he brings to the table.

If I am considered a "Hitch lover" he is the polar opposite.

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08-18-2009, 02:25 PM
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Yipes. Basically your argument here is that all of the kids (except Brassard, if he can stay healthy) have no additional upside. If indeed you are correct, then we are in deep trouble and blowing up the team would absolutely be warranted. We've peaked in 7th place in the West, and can't count on the kids to progress. A huge splash would thus be warranted.

Howson disagrees with your analysis. Howson's proven enough of a talent evaluator and team builder to me in his two years, that I am in with him. Nash resigning long-term this summer further indicates that in the room there is belief in the upside potential as we stand.
Hmm...doesn't look like what I said at all. What a surprise.

I'm pretty sure I said Filatov had "a lot of upside." I'm just not certain our coaching staff has the intestinal fortitude to put the kind where he belongs in the top 6. I also said of Voracek "my immediate thoughts were Vyborny 2.0, and that sure looks like the type of career he'll put up." David's best year was 65 points and 22 goals, which certainly suggests that Voracek still has upside given that he potted 9 goals and had 29 assists last year. Its just not the "superstar" upside some on this board would have you believe. Sorry, he's a two way player who makes a nice pass, but he's not a natural goal scorer.

As for Tyutin and Russell, if you think Howson feels that much differently than I do, I don't think you've been reading the Dispatch this summer.

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08-18-2009, 02:25 PM
  #74
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Who all is the core? I always come back to the Ducks as an example because they reached the ultimate goal of winning a Cup.

Some were up in arms when Lupul was traded. They felt he was a part of the core of the team, had upside, etc., etc. In the end, the value of a Chris Pronger to that team was bigger than the value of Lupul and highly-touted prospect Vladislav Smid. Kunitz and Penner are two other guys who were part of the championship team that were ultimately shipped. Yet the Ducks are still a very competitive team without these alleged "core" guys.

Point being, not every player you develop is a "core" guy at the end of the day.
I get what you're saying, but I don't think the Ducks situation is apples-to-apples with the CBJ. Lupul was expendable because they had Kunitz, Perry and Penner all as younger wingers. Not to mention having Getzlaf, McDonald and Selanne as their other scoring forward depth.

That's 6 pretty damn good forwards (5 who scored 25+ goals in the cup year), most of whom happen to be young. I would've traded him too with that depth.
Columbus isn't there yet. If Brassard and Voracek and Filatov all hit, then the CBJ suddenly have a lot of forward depth.

When you have a stable of younger guys clustered at a position, it makes it a heck of a lot easier to pull the trigger on a deal.

As you note, Kunitz and Penner have since left town, but if the goal is the Cup and the Ducks haven't won the Cup since either have left town, I'm not sure that makes your point.

The core, as I interpret it from management's comments (not necessarily personal opinon) -- I'd say Nash, Brassard, Voracek, Fliatov, Mason for sure -- may not be the same today as it is next year. Players may play themselves into or out of that status.
But as of Aug. 18, that's the core. If you're clammoring for improvements now, then you have to deal with what the situation is now.

Over years, a cord is fluid, no doubt. But in a given moment, as we're dealing with now, it is a static thing.

I don't think we're really arguing philosophy though (actually I think we're mostly in agreement on the philosophy).

I think the core issue is you think Filatov and/or Voracek and/or Russell should be traded, which is fine. I think you're in a minority there, but to each their own.

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08-18-2009, 02:32 PM
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danielfloyd
 
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I am not a pessimist about the current situation, but I do feel like something needs to be done before we embark with the current roster. I think we are set in goal with Mason (obviousy), Garon (a vast upgrade), and LaCosta in the minors ready for call-up, but we need something else on offense and defense. On offense, we lost Malhotra, Peca and Williams, and while I was not necessarily set on bringing any of them back, they did combine for 27-59-86 (+8) for us last year (not including what Williams had before he came to the CBJ), and it has only been replaced by Pahlsson 7-11-18 (-17). I understand Pahlsson was not brought in for offense, but at the same time, he has only been a plus rated player once in his career... Admittedy I never have followed Pahlsson closely, and I know that is not the only indicator to a defensive forward, but 7 of 8 years as a minus and a career -46 doesn't scream defensive powerhouse. Even if he is good on the PK, he is replacing two people we used often on the PK. I also realize Filatov will be taking over some of those minutes, but the difference is still 20-48-68, which is asking a lot from a rookie with only 8 games under his belt. I also do believe in the improvement of Voracek and Brassard, but I don't see the problem with bringing in some proven offense to bolster these players. On defense, our plan to "stand pat" is hopefully a bluff, and I do not hold too much hope that it will be solved by waiting for cap-strapped teams to get desperate. Even with 6 or 7 desperate teams, who is to say that they will try to deal with Columbus, like what we offer, offer what we need, or be reasonable. If nothing changes, I am not predicting any kind of "doomsday," but I do think we will be unlikely to better our first-round exit from last season.

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