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Bos - Nyi (Kessel to Islanders)

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Old
08-17-2009, 11:27 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Isles_Guy View Post
um...... no. okposo is better than kessel (simply because he's as soft as they come.... he could skate all season with a dozen eggs in his pockets and break not even one) i can buy, but not this.
Soft as in he never hits anyone, yes. But not soft mentally and he has gone though cancer, mono and a torn shoulder to still score PPG in the PO's.

It takes all kinds to make a hockey team and I'll be upset if the Bruins lose Kessel, despite his not being a "prototypical Bruin". Neither was Adam Oates by those standards, but he was great for the B's.

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08-17-2009, 11:27 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Isles_Guy View Post
very true, and Bruins fans are clueless as to what kessel is thinking. he wants his money period . otherwise why hasnt he just resigned...?

and i wouldnt trade Okposo for kessel if you had my genitals in a meat grinder. why trade a soft player for an all around player who may score 30 goals himself. the top 2 isles centers had 71 points combined and the top 2 bruins had 161. Kessel would be lucky to score 10 with the centers okposo had

but bruins fans dont consider context, give kessel neilsen as a center and see what he does
Perhaps if those top two centers on the Isles had people who could score some goals, there numbers would be better? How do you know which scenario is the truth here.

Fact of the matter is, Kessel's ability has always been highly regarded, and his promise was quite high. Last season's performance isn't surprising at all. As for being a product of his centers, Marc Savard has never made a goal scorer better then he actually is. It's not like he turned PJ Axelsson into a 20 goal scorer. You don't score 36 goals in the NHL at the age of 21 unless you have the talent to do so. Kessel is no different.

And personally, I would be leery to trade Kessel straight up for a guy that MAY score 30 goals at some point in his career. The only reason I would ever consider it would be to address a) cap issues and b) if the kid coming back had plenty of promise just as Kessel does.

All in all, I understand Isles fan saying Kessel is not a better option then Okposo is right now. Just try not to make it seem like Okposo being a better player then Kessel is a forgone conclusion at this point.

As for Kessel being soft, go watch the game against Columbus where he tore his shoulder. After he was driven into the boards and in obvious pain, he got his ass up and parked it in front of the net, then scored a goal while battling for the puck... that isn't soft. Neither is playing through mono or a torn rotator cuff for the remainder of the season. Soft is too broad a definition, Kessel will never be a guy who hits or dolls out physical punishment, but people will look over their shoulder when he's on the ice, simply because he can make them pay with his offensive ability. Not to mention the kid has played through a ton of crap that would see most people sitting in the pressbox.

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Originally Posted by Thisisacodee View Post
Frans Nielsen gets better with each season.

Patrice Bergeron is injury prone and overpaid.

Both scored similar numbers last season.
Ignorance is bliss.

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08-17-2009, 11:32 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by nycbruins View Post
I can't buy that until Okposo does more at the NHL level, but I hear what you're saying. This is HFboards after all, where potential means a lot more than results.

But I agree the Isle wouldn't and shouldn't trade Okposo for Kessel. I just can't agree that he's a better player until he actually shows that he's a better player.

As far as the crappy team argument, it does hold water but people who watch Kessel play know that his rare mix of speed and shot makes him one of the few players around who creates his own chances. Savard definitely hooked him up with some nice passes, but often times, if you get Kessel the puck by his own blueline, he's flying into the offensive zone before you know it.
i know phil has great skills, in the right situation he could score 60, so dont get me wrong, but hes way too soft, i think hes avoiding hits let alone not giving any. and okposo was a ppg player after Gordon told him to stop deferring to the veterans last season.

I think youll see him break 30 this year, just because he knows that its his role from day one... the first 20 games last year he had 5 points (1 g 4 a) and he was passing the puck to the veterans instead of creating and driving to the net, and then he was injured the last 10 games he played, so i think you'll see the difference this year


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08-17-2009, 11:35 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by nycbruins View Post
I understand Okposo is untouchable now, so the conversation starts with Bailey (would make Savvy's pending UFA status more palatable). Any offers involving Nielsen, Petrov etc. are garbage and I think you all know that.
I agree with you, which is why the Isles will not be trading for Kessel. The Isles at this point in time will not replace young cheap talent with expensive talent. Not saying Bailey is or ever will be better than Kessel, but at this point in time the Isles aren't going to add that much salary while at the same time giving up a cheap player who has a chance to put up decent numbers.

At the same time, there is no way Boston is going to give up a young 35 goal scorer for average players and fringe prospects. Yes, Isles fans (myself included) may think guys like Gregoire and Petrov have good potential, but they are not top prospects, and certainly not enough to get Kessel, no matter how many you throw into a deal.

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08-17-2009, 11:36 AM
  #80
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Boston needs to shed some cap by trading Kobasew and Ference for draft picks, maybe to a western team or something like to Nashville or Dallas. then we'd need to call up boychuck, then we sign Kessel

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08-17-2009, 11:52 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Thisisacodee View Post
Bergeron is injury-prone and has regressed since the Randy Jones hit.

I think DiPietro is a better goaltender than, say, Tomas Vokoun, but I'd rather have Vokoun on the Islanders because of his ability to, you know, play in games.
First of all, you can make an argument that Vokoun is better than Dipietro when they are both healthy anyway...the same argument can't be made for Nielsen and Bergeron. Second of all, Bergeron played in 75 (64 regular season) games last year if you include the playoffs. Nielson played in 59 games, and missed 23 with a leg injury, which is more than Bergeron missed.

I'm sort of embarrassed for you that you actually attempt to back up this absurd premise instead of just admitting that it was an asinine assumption.

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08-17-2009, 12:12 PM
  #82
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Sigh.

All I'm saying is I'd rather have Frans Nielsen, with a cap hit of 525k, than an injury-prone Patrice Bergeron, with a cap hit of 5 million, on my team.

If both players were at 100%, I'd take Bergeron. If I was playing NHL 10, I'd rather have Bergeron. In the real world, I wouldn't want a concussion-prone center making 5 million a season on my roster.

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08-17-2009, 12:25 PM
  #83
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I'd rather give Bergeron 2 more full years to make his way all the way back than to take Nielsen, no matter his contract.
It's not all about points. Somebody has to win faceoffs, play the penalty kill etc. If Bergy gets back even to 50 points, then his contract is worth it because other aspects of the game are just as important as scoring.

Nielsen isn't good at anything besides playmaking, and he's not really all that amazing at that either.

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08-17-2009, 12:27 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Dr Quincy View Post
Wow that's horrible.

Nielsen would be at best our 4th line center. Petrov is totally useless to us, and no interest in your 2nd or Gregoire.

Sorry, but you would have to part with some of those guys you don't want to trade. Or at the very least figure Ness + 2010 #1, with probably something else being added by you.

But seriously this is the worst Kessel offer i've seen on HF.
The offer isn't very good, yes, but Neilson is much better than your giving him credit for. He has 2nd line center potential, and has showed us that in a few short glimpses on the NYI's.

Again, that deal is crap, but Neilson is not.

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08-17-2009, 12:28 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by nycbruins View Post
I'd rather give Bergeron 2 more full years to make his way all the way back than to take Nielsen, no matter his contract.
It's not all about points. Somebody has to win faceoffs, play the penalty kill etc. If Bergy gets back even to 50 points, then his contract is worth it because other aspects of the game are just as important as scoring.

Nielsen isn't good at anything besides playmaking, and he's not really all that amazing at that either.


Right.

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08-17-2009, 12:32 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by PatientlyWaiting View Post


Right.
Yeah, I forgot Nielsen's awesome. An undersized, maddeningly inconsistent soft center who is 25 and has never put up any big point totals at any level of hockey.

A team with Savard, Krejci, Bergeron, Sobotka, Hamill & Colborne all in the system must be dying to get him. Maybe the Bruins should be adding to the package.

Isle fans need some good hockey to watch so they can recognize it again.

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08-17-2009, 12:32 PM
  #87
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The offer isn't very good, yes, but Neilson is much better than your giving him credit for. He has 2nd line center potential, and has showed us that in a few short glimpses on the NYI's.

Again, that deal is crap, but Neilson is not.
I never said he's crap. He's a good player and he indeed might have 2nd line potential. Is he going to play ahead of Savard? No. Krejci? No. Bergeron? No... Yes I know they put up similar numbers last year, but Bergeron just does so much more on the ice than Nielsen. It's kind of like Isles fans preferring Okposo over Kessel: Kessel may score a little bit more but Okposo is tougher, stronger etc

Well Bergeron will probably score more than Nielsen AND is better defensively, more physical and better at face offs.

Basically for the Bruins, if they are trading Kessel they are NOT looking for an NHL center back in the deal. That was my point, not that Nielsen wasn't good.

For Kessel think defensive prospects and/or high picks.

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08-17-2009, 12:48 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by nycbruins View Post
Yeah, I forgot Nielsen's awesome. An undersized, maddeningly inconsistent soft center who is 25 and has never put up any big point totals at any level of hockey.

A team with Savard, Krejci, Bergeron, Sobotka, Hamill & Colborne all in the system must be dying to get him. Maybe the Bruins should be adding to the package.

Isle fans need some good hockey to watch so they can recognize it again.
Apparently you watch "good hockey", and still can't respect a decent player who is consistently getting better. This same player was injured for 8-10 weeks, and began to get back on track. He's not good enough to land Kessel, and doesn't fit the Bruins needs, yes I agree. The Islanders would need to give more to get Kessel. But Neilson's not as craptastic as your craptastic scouting report would indicate.

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08-17-2009, 01:05 PM
  #89
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How would the Isles be going backwards? They add a young player who already put up 36 goals as a 21 year old? Kessel certainly helps the Isles going forward and would nicely compliment your nice amount of youth.

Well, I think it's safe to say that Kessel will likely have a bigger impact on a team than any of the names listed and if you're hesitant in dealing that package for him, so would the Bruins because that package doesn't help them win now.

Prospects and picks won't help them win the Cup this year.

The only way Kessel gets traded is for an impact player.
i dont disagree with you that kessel being traded for will take more...but what im saying is phil kessel alone minus those prospects does nothing for the islanders...especially this year. It boosts their payroll, thats about it. Nielsen is signed crazy cheap and the isles took a shot on petrov with a 3rd round pick...low risk high reward there. The islanders are in a rebuild that will take a few years, and trading away one of the higher rated prospects, an nhl ready center who is just coming into his own, another good lw prospect and virtually a late 1st rd pick for one player will not help this team in the future...isles JUST started to build a prospect pool that has some depth and aside from dehaan, petrov is pretty much their top rated(Tavares doesnt count, hes on the big club for sure). trading that away would set the back in the rebuild, regardless on how many goals kessel scores this year.

and im not disputing kessels skill...hes very good at scoring goals, thats true. you just need to look at the fact the isles are rebuilding, and kessel already seems to be worried about how much $ hell make, and that wouldnt have him on the island past his 1st contract there...these other kids are isles property for another 5-7 yrs mostly. theres more to a trade than just players, the $$ issue on LI isnt too great

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08-17-2009, 01:14 PM
  #90
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i think they have to dump Sturm's salary instead

Sturm should be pretty cheap to get now

LA, NYI, PHX could use him

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08-17-2009, 01:21 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by nycbruins View Post
Yeah, I forgot Nielsen's awesome. An undersized, maddeningly inconsistent soft center who is 25 and has never put up any big point totals at any level of hockey.

A team with Savard, Krejci, Bergeron, Sobotka, Hamill & Colborne all in the system must be dying to get him. Maybe the Bruins should be adding to the package.

Isle fans need some good hockey to watch so they can recognize it again.
I know the trade package was unfair, but all these snitty comments about the Isles, and your ridculous take on Nielsen (maddenly inconsistent? Soft?) make it quite easy to dismiss your opinion.

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08-17-2009, 01:22 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by AllTheKingsMen View Post
i think they have to dump Sturm's salary instead

Sturm should be pretty cheap to get now

LA, NYI, PHX could use him
Nope. The Isles have no roster spots, and no payroll room. Sturm is a great player, but we have no room for him.

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08-17-2009, 01:26 PM
  #93
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Does Kessel play center?

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08-17-2009, 01:32 PM
  #94
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Nope. The Isles have no roster spots, and no payroll room. Sturm is a great player, but we have no room for him.
really? so those Tanguay or Satan to NYI rumors was pure bs?

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08-17-2009, 01:47 PM
  #95
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really? so those Tanguay or Satan to NYI rumors was pure bs?
I don't know what Tanguay rumors you are talking about. However, Chris Botta confirmed that Isles had never made a significant offer to Tanguay. At one point Tanguay's camp might have called, but the Isles have not been willing to give more than one year.

I don't believe there was ever contact with Satan's camp. That appears to be propaganda from his agent. Satan is loathed by Islander management.

The Isles have 12 forwards on one-way deals and they are at their internal cap. They won't be acquiring Sturm, Kessel, Satan, Tanguay, or any other vet forward. What you see is what you get, as far as the Isles roster is concerned.

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08-17-2009, 01:50 PM
  #96
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I know the trade package was unfair, but all these snitty comments about the Isles, and your ridculous take on Nielsen (maddenly inconsistent? Soft?) make it quite easy to dismiss your opinion.
I watch the Isle a lot by default, and maybe I'm underestimating his talent level, but I still think he's soft and inconsistent. If he weren't, he probably would have established himself by now. He's not a prospect anymore, and he's not a performer either. Those types of players don't have much value. But the Isle are in rebuild, or just build, mode, so they can have the patience to play him on a top line and see if he puts it together for longer than 10-15 game stretches.

The Bruins, or any upper echelon team for that matter, cannot afford to have that patience and I doubt anyone wants a guy like Nielsen for the 4th line.

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08-17-2009, 01:55 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by nycbruins View Post
I watch the Isle a lot by default, and maybe I'm underestimating his talent level, but I still think he's soft and inconsistent. If he weren't, he probably would have established himself by now. He's not a prospect anymore, and he's not a performer either. Those types of players don't have much value. But the Isle are in rebuild, or just build, mode, so they can have the patience to play him on a top line and see if he puts it together for longer than 10-15 game stretches. .
You're simply incorrect about this player. He is neither soft nor inconsistent. he got progressively better as the season went along and his consistency was actually remarkable despite the major injury.

Nor is he soft. He isn't big or especially physical, but he has a quite fiestiness about hims and goes into the heavy areas to make plays.

I'm also not sure where you got the idea that the Isles plan to play him on the top line.

And, his relatively long development time is probably accounted for by being one of the first Danish players ever in the NHL. He was always a project because he had so little exposure to high level competition.

No offense, but you appear to know little to nothing about this particular player.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nycbruins View Post
The Bruins, or any upper echelon team for that matter, cannot afford to have that patience and I doubt anyone wants a guy like Nielsen for the 4th line.
Just to be clear, I don't see the Bruins and Isles as trade partners, nor do I believe the Isles are interested in moving Neilsen. However, I have no doubt that if he was a Bruin, he'd be a very effective third line forward and would earn a regular shift.


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08-17-2009, 01:58 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by AllTheKingsMen View Post
i think they have to dump Sturm's salary instead

Sturm should be pretty cheap to get now

LA, NYI, PHX could use him
Sturm has a NTC. He has stated he is not willing to waive it. He most certainly won't waive it to go to any of those teams. No offense.

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08-17-2009, 02:26 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by nycbruins View Post
I watch the Isle a lot by default, and maybe I'm underestimating his talent level, but I still think he's soft and inconsistent. If he weren't, he probably would have established himself by now. He's not a prospect anymore, and he's not a performer either. Those types of players don't have much value. But the Isle are in rebuild, or just build, mode, so they can have the patience to play him on a top line and see if he puts it together for longer than 10-15 game stretches.

The Bruins, or any upper echelon team for that matter, cannot afford to have that patience and I doubt anyone wants a guy like Nielsen for the 4th line.
Frans is far from soft. if you watched the isles last yr you know his injury was from a leaping closeline from mike mottau(which wasnt a head shot apparently). Hes from denmark and took a while to adjust to the NA style of game. He has gotten better each season and is very slick with the puck. also isnt a defensive liability...now, that being said, both are 100%, i take patty bergeron...its a no-brainer. but with his injury history and the improvement and fact that nielsen makes 1/10th the salary bergeron makes for the next 3 seasons, i like nielsen. I dont think youre over-valuing bergeron, but i think you are underestimating nielsen. hes a solid center who will easily top 45 points this upcoming season. not a world-beater but its solid from a late-bloomer. not every player bursts onto the scene putting up 70 pts.

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08-17-2009, 02:48 PM
  #100
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Frans is far from soft. if you watched the isles last yr you know his injury was from a leaping closeline from mike mottau(which wasnt a head shot apparently). Hes from denmark and took a while to adjust to the NA style of game. He has gotten better each season and is very slick with the puck. also isnt a defensive liability...now, that being said, both are 100%, i take patty bergeron...its a no-brainer. but with his injury history and the improvement and fact that nielsen makes 1/10th the salary bergeron makes for the next 3 seasons, i like nielsen. I dont think youre over-valuing bergeron, but i think you are underestimating nielsen. hes a solid center who will easily top 45 points this upcoming season. not a world-beater but its solid from a late-bloomer. not every player bursts onto the scene putting up 70 pts.
Fair enough, but I can't see how you can say he'll "easily" top 45 points next season when he hasn't done it before in any league. And everyone keeps talking about Bergy's injury problems, and that's legit, but Nielsen has never played 70 total games in a season combined in any league(s). He does have a bargain contract, I'll give him that.

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