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Why Didn't We Make the Playoffs?

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Old
04-07-2004, 09:21 AM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jj@jj.com
I'd like to just add to this point that this is emerging as a pattern for Biron, and this is why the team needs to go in a different direction.
Ding! Not to belabor the Biron-Noronen fan grudge match further, the biggest thing for the team is to get consistent goaltending from start of season to finish, regardless of who that is.

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04-07-2004, 09:43 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Chainshot
Ding! Not to belabor the Biron-Noronen fan grudge match further, the biggest thing for the team is to get consistent goaltending from start of season to finish, regardless of who that is.
The question is can Noronen provide that? I'd think not.

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Biron's worst stretch was November and December, where he lost Ruff's confidence, where he had an .887 save percentage and was 3-6 in 10 starts. Not four games. Two months.
Well now that's a way to get in the groove!!! 10 games in 60 days!!!

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Miller didn't get a fair shot. 2 games and back to Rochester? That's fair, especially considering the 0 goals the Sabres scored in his first two games.
I agree that Miller didn't get a fair shot. But IMO, a few good starts in exibition games doesn't deserve the starting job in this particular situation.

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04-07-2004, 09:49 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by LALALALALALAFONTAINE
Facts are a *****:
http://www.sportsline.com/nhl/stats/...IE?&_1:col_1=8

Sabres team goaltending was 21st. 21st in the NHL doesn't get you in the playoffs. It means that there 66% of the teams out there with better goaltending than us.

By goaltender:
http://www.sportsline.com/nhl/stats/...rint_rows=9999

Biron is 23rd among goalies with 25 or more games.
Cool. Good Job.

So, how many of the other goalies in the league do you think would have improved our club enough to get us in the playoffs?? Maybe 15% of them.

Stats are good, but they are not proof by any means. Trust me, I know how to log onto CBS Sportline and check the stats.

Remember our defense was putrid to start the season. How many goalies could have overcame that to steal enough games early in the year to get us in?
Just as you said, Noronen's first half numbers were very good, and his W-L record is disastrous. What does that tell you?

So if Mika played so good in the first half, and Biron played just as well in the second half, how is our failure to make the playoffs this year Biron's fault?

I mean he wasn't even the starting goalie this season.

Blame the team for the early problems....not Biron.

Either way, if Biron is gone before next season, I'll be on your back when Noronen can't hold down the job for more than a couple months, then Miller struggles, and we're all wishing for Biron.

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04-07-2004, 10:16 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Fan-of-#9
The question is can Noronen provide that? I'd think not.

Well now that's a way to get in the groove!!! 10 games in 60 days!!!

I agree that Miller didn't get a fair shot. But IMO, a few good starts in exibition games doesn't deserve the starting job in this particular situation.
Why don't you think Noronen can provide that??? Why do you think Biron can, when he's shown he can't???

10 games in 60 days??? He actually played 9 of those games in 36 days!!! That's more than half of the Sabres games over that time period!!! He sucked, so Ruff only started him twice after 12/06/04!!! He earned his place on the bench!!! Noronen had no problem getting into a groove with fewer games in November, and Biron's best game was either against Ottawa after a 5 game layoff or against Washington after a 12 game layoff!!!

Why does four years of mediocrity deserve an automatic coronation as a starter??? Noronen had the best save percentage of the goaltenders last year, and Miller had the best winning percentage (not important to me, but apparently important, but maybe only this year)...

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04-07-2004, 10:35 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Fan-of-#9
Cool. Good Job.

So, how many of the other goalies in the league do you think would have improved our club enough to get us in the playoffs?? Maybe 15% of them.

Stats are good, but they are not proof by any means. Trust me, I know how to log onto CBS Sportline and check the stats.
15% I can think of 15 who could have gotten us into a playoff spot, and 22 who would have gotten us closer to a playoff spot. Where the hell do you get 15% from?

And if you know Biron is 23rd among goaltenders with 25 or more games under their belts and Sabre goaltending is 21st overall, why are you happy with our goaltending?

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Originally Posted by Fan-of-#9
Remember our defense was putrid to start the season. How many goalies could have overcame that to steal enough games early in the year to get us in?
Just as you said, Noronen's first half numbers were very good, and his W-L record is disastrous. What does that tell you?
It tells me that wins and losses are a team achievement. Our defense was putrid all year, not just in the first half. Stop trying to justify Biron's poor play in the first half. He played bad in the first half. Noronen played bad in the second half. The defense played badly all year. Where's the relationship between bad defense and bad goaltending? There is none. Ask Luongo for further proof.

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Originally Posted by Fan-of-#9
So if Mika played so good in the first half, and Biron played just as well in the second half, how is our failure to make the playoffs this year Biron's fault?

I mean he wasn't even the starting goalie this season.

Blame the team for the early problems....not Biron.
So give the team credit for the late surge. Biron deserves some credit for the late surge, and he deserves some blame for the early problems.

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Originally Posted by Fan-of-#9
Either way, if Biron is gone before next season, I'll be on your back when Noronen can't hold down the job for more than a couple months, then Miller struggles, and we're all wishing for Biron.
Biron hasn't held down the starting job EVER for more than a few months. And if you'll remember, or "log onto" ESPN to check the stats, you'll note that Noronen was brought in to split the duties two years ago when Biron was on a 9 games winless streak.

And when Noronen turns into Kiprusoff or Giguere, I'll be on your back for years to come.

I've already wished for Roloson, who should have been kept instead of Biron. BTW, that's one of those goalies who we'd be in the playoffs with.

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04-07-2004, 10:38 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by jj@jj.com
I personally felt that the door what open for Mika, but he couldn't capitalize on the opportunity. By the time he was starting to look like he had a shot at holding on to the #1, Biron grabbed the job back and the Sabres were on streak. Unfortunatly, when Biron let up a little after that, Norenen was not ready and didn't perform all that well, or the team didn't play that well in front of him, whatever the case, they did not win with him in net.

The issue at hand here is that this team has a tandem of TWO slow starters, and that doesn't add up to the playoffs. If Miller were any kind of Opportunist, he'll work his behind off to come into camp and take the job.
I agree that Noronen didn't capitalize on his opportunity, and when he started to, he got hurt.

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04-07-2004, 10:48 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by LALALALALALAFONTAINE
I agree that Noronen didn't capitalize on his opportunity, and when he started to, he got hurt.

I was just about to bring that up. I thought I was the only person who remembered that Noronen got hurt this year.


Fan-o-9, you're argument that Biron didn't get a fair chance this year doesn't hold any water. It's not like he is just breaking into the league. He had 2 and a half years as a starter (I'm counting 99-00 when Hasek went down), Noronen had zero. His past certainly has a bearing on Ruff's decision with him this year. If we were talking about two goalies that had little experience prior to this season you have a point. Not when one of them has been a clear starter. Even playing 72 games one year as you're so ready to bring up. You can't take this year in a vacuum with Biron. He's shown a consistant pattern over the past five seasons. I don't see why you think that's going to change.

And to put this in no uncertain terms: I trust Noronen more than I do Biron. I have nothing against Biron as a person and you brought up two people who I think he compares very well to: Cloutier and Cechmanek. I don't see Biron as ever reaching more success than those two and I think it's time to cut the cord.

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04-07-2004, 10:52 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LALALALALALAFONTAINE
15% I can think of 15 who could have gotten us into a playoff spot, and 22 who would have gotten us closer to a playoff spot. Where the hell do you get 15% from?

And if you know Biron is 23rd among goaltenders with 25 or more games under their belts and Sabre goaltending is 21st overall, why are you happy with our goaltending?



It tells me that wins and losses are a team achievement. Our defense was putrid all year, not just in the first half. Stop trying to justify Biron's poor play in the first half. He played bad in the first half. Noronen played bad in the second half. The defense played badly all year. Where's the relationship between bad defense and bad goaltending? There is none. Ask Luongo for further proof.



So give the team credit for the late surge. Biron deserves some credit for the late surge, and he deserves some blame for the early problems.



Biron hasn't held down the starting job EVER for more than a few months. And if you'll remember, or "log onto" ESPN to check the stats, you'll note that Noronen was brought in to split the duties two years ago when Biron was on a 9 games winless streak.

And when Noronen turns into Kiprusoff or Giguere, I'll be on your back for years to come.

I've already wished for Roloson, who should have been kept instead of Biron. BTW, that's one of those goalies who we'd be in the playoffs with.
In Biron's first year as a starter he lead the league in GP (maybe 2nd to Brodeur, I'm not 100% sure), and was in the TOP 10 in every major goaltending category.

What about that? 72 GP, 31-28-10 2.22 GAA, .915 SV%. That's stellar for a first year starter.

So again, Marty can't be a starter in this league???

As far as I'm concerned, if Ruff gave the starting job to Biron from DAY 1, we'd be in the playoffs.

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04-07-2004, 11:01 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Fan-of-#9
As far as I'm concerned, if Ruff gave the starting job to Biron from DAY 1, we'd be in the playoffs.

And there's the flaw in your argument right that. You don't give jobs in pro sports, they have to be earned. And Biron didn't earn the #1 job until Noronen got hurt.

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04-07-2004, 11:20 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Ruckus007
And there's the flaw in your argument right that. You don't give jobs in pro sports, they have to be earned. And Biron didn't earn the #1 job until Noronen got hurt.
OK, then please explain what Mika has done to earn the #1 job...in his first 69 games at the NHL level he has been below average....at least Biron is AVERAGE if not ABOVE AVERAGE.

Again it seems like you guys are not able to deal with inconsistency from your goaltender, if that's the case we better try and pry Brodeur out of NJ.

Look at Biron's career stats, they are very good. He is almost a .500 goalie on a team that has missed the playoffs for 3 straight seasons. If you expect Biron to post Turco-like numbers on a sub-par defensive team, you're nuts.

Biron is an AVERAGE goalie right now. Mika is a BELOW AVERAGE goalie right now.

If these are our 2 options right now, please explain to me why we should go with Noronen. It's like you guys are simply HOPING that Mika Noronen becomes the next Mika Kiprosoff. What if that doesn't happen?

We know what we are getting with Biron. A goalie that is AVERAGE, who posts decent numbers and can play .500 hockey on a team where the other goalies seem to lose a lot more than they win.

If Bob Essensa could have won 3 of his 9 games in 01-02 (instead of 0), Biron was good enough for us to get in the playoffs that year...Actually Biron was our MVP that year Are we forgetting these minor details?????????????

Go get Brodeur, or else accept the fact that we have Biron and he is our best shot at the playoffs.



WHAT HAS MIKA DONE ????????????????????????????????????



....absolutely NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


If you can forget about last season (02-03), which all of us would like to do, considering every player from the offense to the goalies were garbage, Biron hs had an exceptional career.

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04-07-2004, 11:35 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Fan-of-#9
OK, then please explain what Mika has done to earn the #1 job...in his first 69 games at the NHL level he has been below average....at least Biron is AVERAGE if not ABOVE AVERAGE.
He outplayed Biron in December and January easily and was starting the lion's share of games before being hurt. Not only that he was outplaying Biron over the final month last season when they were essentially splitting time. Not only that but he won some key games down the stretch in 2001-02 when Biron needed a rest because of those 72 games you so like to bring up. Before I go on I want to make this clear that I'm talking about actually watching these guys play (both of them) for the majority of their professional careers. I'm not basing this on stats, I'm basing it on what I've seen.

Quote:
Again it seems like you guys are not able to deal with inconsistency from your goaltender, if that's the case we better try and pry Brodeur out of NJ.
And you can't seem to deal the inconsistancy from your goaltender. And don't make this into me liking Noronen and not liking Biron. I think keeping Noronen around is better for the Sabres, it has nothing to do with who I like.

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Look at Biron's career stats, they are very good. He is almost a .500 goalie on a team that has missed the playoffs for 3 straight seasons. If you expect Biron to post Turco-like numbers on a sub-par defensive team, you're nuts.
See above. I don't expect Turco like numbers. I'd like faith that the starting goalie on game night gives the Sabres a chance to win. I don't have that with Biron, I do with Noronen. This comes from watching them play.

Quote:
Biron is an AVERAGE goalie right now. Mika is a BELOW AVERAGE goalie right now.
IMO, they're equal at least. Biron's proven he's a mediocre goalie, Noronen doesn't have a 72 game season under his belt yet to prove he isn't.

[quoteIf these are our 2 options right now, please explain to me why we should go with Noronen. It's like you guys are simply HOPING that Mika Noronen becomes the next Mika Kiprosoff. What if that doesn't happen? [/quote]

1. $$ 2. From watching the Sabres I think they have just as good a chance with Noronen/Miller as they do with Biron/Noronen. Frankly you can put that Miller/Noronen or Miller=Noronen I don't care. I haven't seen any growth in Biron over the last three years, have you?

[quoteWe know what we are getting with Biron. A goalie that is AVERAGE, who posts decent numbers and can play .500 hockey on a team where the other goalies seem to lose a lot more than they win. [/quote]

Having seen both goalies over most of their careers I've always thought Noronen's ceiling was higher than Biron's. Biron is Cloutier/Cechmanek. Noronen has the potential to be Nabokov, IMO.

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If Bob Essensa could have won 3 of his 9 games in 01-02 (instead of 0), Biron was good enough for us to get in the playoffs that year...Actually Biron was our MVP that year Are we forgetting these minor details?????????????
If Bob Essensa has won 3 games maybe he could have actually pushed Biron for a job and Marty could have earned his playing time instead of being given the job because Essensa was unreliable and Noronen wasn't ready. What the hell's your point here? If Biron had won three games in the first half they'd have made the playoffs too. They didn't and his inconsistancy is a key reason (though not the only one) why.

Quote:
Go get Brodeur, or else accept the fact that we have Biron and he is our best shot at the playoffs.
What's your obsession with Brodeur anyway? I don't need the best goalie in the league, just one I can trust. That is not Biron.



Quote:
WHAT HAS MIKA DONE ????????????????????????????????????



....absolutely NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


If you can forget about last season (02-03), which all of us would like to do, considering every player from the offense to the goalies were garbage, Biron hs had an exceptional career.

Two games below .500 is exceptional? Three straight missed playoffs on your watch is exceptional? I guess we have different definitions of the word. The only thing that's close to an exceptional player that's worn a Sabres uniform the past three years is Drury. Satan maybe but he forfeited his chance this season.

Again, in no uncertain terms: I trust Noronen more than Biron. This is based on what I've seen of them, not just their stats.

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04-07-2004, 12:01 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruckus007
He outplayed Biron in December and January easily and was starting the lion's share of games before being hurt. Not only that he was outplaying Biron over the final month last season when they were essentially splitting time. Not only that but he won some key games down the stretch in 2001-02 when Biron needed a rest because of those 72 games you so like to bring up. Before I go on I want to make this clear that I'm talking about actually watching these guys play (both of them) for the majority of their professional careers. I'm not basing this on stats, I'm basing it on what I've seen.



And you can't seem to deal the inconsistancy from your goaltender. And don't make this into me liking Noronen and not liking Biron. I think keeping Noronen around is better for the Sabres, it has nothing to do with who I like.



See above. I don't expect Turco like numbers. I'd like faith that the starting goalie on game night gives the Sabres a chance to win. I don't have that with Biron, I do with Noronen. This comes from watching them play.



IMO, they're equal at least. Biron's proven he's a mediocre goalie, Noronen doesn't have a 72 game season under his belt yet to prove he isn't.

If these are our 2 options right now, please explain to me why we should go with Noronen. It's like you guys are simply HOPING that Mika Noronen becomes the next Mika Kiprosoff. What if that doesn't happen?

1. $$ 2. From watching the Sabres I think they have just as good a chance with Noronen/Miller as they do with Biron/Noronen. Frankly you can put that Miller/Noronen or Miller=Noronen I don't care. I haven't seen any growth in Biron over the last three years, have you?

We know what we are getting with Biron. A goalie that is AVERAGE, who posts decent numbers and can play .500 hockey on a team where the other goalies seem to lose a lot more than they win.

Having seen both goalies over most of their careers I've always thought Noronen's ceiling was higher than Biron's. Biron is Cloutier/Cechmanek. Noronen has the potential to be Nabokov, IMO.



If Bob Essensa has won 3 games maybe he could have actually pushed Biron for a job and Marty could have earned his playing time instead of being given the job because Essensa was unreliable and Noronen wasn't ready. What the hell's your point here? If Biron had won three games in the first half they'd have made the playoffs too. They didn't and his inconsistancy is a key reason (though not the only one) why.



What's your obsession with Brodeur anyway? I don't need the best goalie in the league, just one I can trust. That is not Biron.






Two games below .500 is exceptional? Three straight missed playoffs on your watch is exceptional? I guess we have different definitions of the word. The only thing that's close to an exceptional player that's worn a Sabres uniform the past three years is Drury. Satan maybe but he forfeited his chance this season.

Again, in no uncertain terms: I trust Noronen more than Biron. This is based on what I've seen of them, not just their stats.

In 01-02, Biron was a TOP 10 goalie in the league. He played 72 games and finished with solid stats and 31 wins. He did more than enough to get us in the playoffs. Bob Essensa couldn't stop a beach ball that season, and couldn't help this team even get 1 point in the standings. Biron earned every game he got that season. HE WAS A TOP 10 goalie in the NHL that season, that shoes me that he can be a TOP 10 goalie. Goalies hit their peak at around 28-30, I expect that from Biron.

Mika has proven NOTHING.

I CAN deal with inconsistency from my goalies, you have to. Every goalie in the league will have slumps in their career, I don't see Marty being anymore inconsistent than most goalies in the league.

I posted this somewhere else.
The NHL has Brodeur and Belfour THEN Turco, Luongo and Theodore THEN the Rest of the goalies, including Biron.

Go get one of those 5 goalies, or accept that you will get some inconsistent goaltending. Whether it be Mika, Marty or Ryan. Marty has at leat PROVED that he can be a TOP 10 goalie, he can be our MVP, and he can be the hottest goalie in the league when he's on.

Can Mika? Can Ryan? It's up in the air.

With the team we have assembled if we can't make the playoffs with the goaltending of Biron, we probably can only get in with maybe 8-10 other goalies in the league when they are at their best (which is never guaranteed).

Biron is at his best when he plays most of our games. Play him from Day 1 next season and we're in the playoffs.

Everyone keeps saying that Marty hasn't got us in the playoffs for 3 straight seasons, why would that change? Well considering our team is much better than in the past couple of seasons, any goalie would have a better chance with a better team in front of him.

Again in 01-02 Biron was Top 10 in all major categories. So tell me how that was his fault we didn't get in. We don't have a TOP 5 goalie, we have an average one.

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04-07-2004, 02:45 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Fan-of-#9
In Biron's first year as a starter he lead the league in GP (maybe 2nd to Brodeur, I'm not 100% sure), and was in the TOP 10 in every major goaltending category.

What about that? 72 GP, 31-28-10 2.22 GAA, .915 SV%. That's stellar for a first year starter.

So again, Marty can't be a starter in this league???

As far as I'm concerned, if Ruff gave the starting job to Biron from DAY 1, we'd be in the playoffs.
I never said Marty can't be a starter. He is a starter. An AVERAGE starter. I am saying he is inconsistent to the point where someone replaces him. That has happened in every year.

As far as I'm concerned, Ruff wouldn't have a job if he played Biron 80% of the games from October to December. Biron wasn't stopping 9 of 10 shots at that point. Your opinion is contrary to the facts that Noronen significantly outplayed Biron in the first half.

As far as first year starters, 10th in save percentage is not stellar. It's decent. Kiprusoff or Raycroft are both in the top 5 this year. And which goaltenders aren't you counting? Those playing 40 or fewer games?

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04-07-2004, 02:51 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Fan-of-#9
In Biron's first year as a starter he lead the league in GP (maybe 2nd to Brodeur, I'm not 100% sure), and was in the TOP 10 in every major goaltending category.

What about that? 72 GP, 31-28-10 2.22 GAA, .915 SV%. That's stellar for a first year starter.

So again, Marty can't be a starter in this league???

As far as I'm concerned, if Ruff gave the starting job to Biron from DAY 1, we'd be in the playoffs.
I never said Marty can't be a starter. He is a starter. An AVERAGE starter. I am saying he is inconsistent to the point where someone replaces him. That has happened in every year.

As far as I'm concerned, Ruff wouldn't have a job if he played Biron 80% of the games from October to December. Biron wasn't stopping 9 of 10 shots at that point. Your opinion is contrary to the facts that Noronen significantly outplayed Biron in the first half.

Biron has a .911 save percentage in his last two years. He has a career .911 save percentage. He will be 27 at the start of next season. Players tend to not significantly improve after 27. This includes goaltenders who have played 150 games. He has played 246 games in the NHL. Goalies don't significantly improve after their 150th game. .911 is mediocre.

As far as first year starters, 10th in save percentage is not stellar. It's decent. Kiprusoff or Raycroft are both in the top 5 this year. And which goaltenders aren't you counting? Those playing 40 or fewer games? Amazing how many first year goaltenders wind up in the top five. Seems to me that's a hell of an argument for giving Noronen and/or Miller their shot.

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04-07-2004, 03:07 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Fan-of-#9
In 01-02, Biron was a TOP 10 goalie in the league. He played 72 games and finished with solid stats and 31 wins. He did more than enough to get us in the playoffs. Bob Essensa couldn't stop a beach ball that season, and couldn't help this team even get 1 point in the standings. Biron earned every game he got that season. HE WAS A TOP 10 goalie in the NHL that season, that shoes me that he can be a TOP 10 goalie. Goalies hit their peak at around 28-30, I expect that from Biron.
Expecting improvement from Biron is like expecting a number to pop up on a roulette wheel. There is no basis for your feeling. Goaltenders show what they are when they've hit 27 and have played 150 games. Biron is 27 at the start of next year and he's played well over 200 games. HE WILL NOT IMPROVE.

Younger goalies, who have not played 150 games, like Noronen and Miller, will in all likelihood improve. THEY WILL IMPROVE.

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Originally Posted by Fan-of-#9
Mika has proven NOTHING.
Same with Kiprusoff last year or Raycroft last year. The problem is deciding to go with proven mediocrity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fan-of-#9
I CAN deal with inconsistency from my goalies, you have to. Every goalie in the league will have slumps in their career, I don't see Marty being anymore inconsistent than most goalies in the league.
Twice, Biron has seen his save percentage rise 20 points in the second half of the season.

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Originally Posted by Fan-of-#9
I posted this somewhere else.
The NHL has Brodeur and Belfour THEN Turco, Luongo and Theodore THEN the Rest of the goalies, including Biron.

Go get one of those 5 goalies, or accept that you will get some inconsistent goaltending. Whether it be Mika, Marty or Ryan. Marty has at leat PROVED that he can be a TOP 10 goalie, he can be our MVP, and he can be the hottest goalie in the league when he's on.
If you think Brodeur and Belfour are the best goalies in the league, you are nuts.

Biron hasn't proven anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fan-of-#9
Can Mika? Can Ryan? It's up in the air.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fan-of-#9
With the team we have assembled if we can't make the playoffs with the goaltending of Biron, we probably can only get in with maybe 8-10 other goalies in the league when they are at their best (which is never guaranteed).

Biron is at his best when he plays most of our games. Play him from Day 1 next season and we're in the playoffs.

Everyone keeps saying that Marty hasn't got us in the playoffs for 3 straight seasons, why would that change? Well considering our team is much better than in the past couple of seasons, any goalie would have a better chance with a better team in front of him.

Again in 01-02 Biron was Top 10 in all major categories. So tell me how that was his fault we didn't get in. We don't have a TOP 5 goalie, we have an average one.
Wrong. You say you have the ability to look up stats. Check out the 22 other goaltenders who have better stats than Biron.

Biron's best year was when he played 72 games, but that was due to terrible backups. He was terribly inconsistent in the first half of that year with a heavy workload.

AGAIN in 01-02? That is his only year he was in the top 10 in save percentage, and only if you ignore some goaltenders.

If Biron is average, as you admit, why are you so adamant about not trying to improve on him?

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04-07-2004, 03:36 PM
  #66
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If Biron is average, as you admit, why are you so adamant about not trying to improve on him?
My main reason for not wanting to replace Biron with Noronen/Miller is because there is a HIGH CHANCE that our goaltending will be worse. With the team assembled and 3 years of tinkering to get where we are, I'm not ready to risk all that on the shoulders of 2 unproven and unexperienced goalies. You even said that you want them (Miller and Noronen) to fight it out. That could be disastrous.

Biron has had an average career. He can have a good career when it's over, maybe better than good.

My biggest beef in this argument is that:

A) Biron hasn't been given a FAIR CHANCE by management

B) Biron IS NOT the reason why this team has missed the playoffs for 3 straight years.

C) Biron is just as good as the MAJORITY of goalies in this league.

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04-07-2004, 04:02 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fan-of-#9
The NHL has Brodeur and Belfour THEN Turco, Luongo and Theodore THEN the Rest of the goalies, including Biron.
I have to disagree here:

There's Brodeur, Belfour, Joseph, and Luongo, the games best goalies. Then there's Theodore, Turco, Khabibulin, Giguere, Ceckmanek Nabakov, Vokun and Roloson. THEN you have your Goalies who broke out this year in Dipeitro, Raycroft, and Kiprusoff. Now, you have your average NHL starting goaltender: Hackett, Lalime, Aesbischer, Nurminen, Osgood, Cloutier, Grahome, Weekes, Legace, Turek, Esche, Burke, and Biron. I would happily take a any of the goalies above my average list over Biron. Any day of the week.

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04-07-2004, 04:11 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdoak
I have to disagree here:

There's Brodeur, Belfour, Joseph, and Luongo, the games best goalies. Then there's Theodore, Turco, Khabibulin, Giguere, Ceckmanek Nabakov, Vokun and Roloson. THEN you have your Goalies who broke out this year in Dipeitro, Raycroft, and Kiprusoff. Now, you have your average NHL starting goaltender: Hackett, Lalime, Aesbischer, Nurminen, Osgood, Cloutier, Grahome, Weekes, Legace, Turek, Esche, Burke, and Biron. I would happily take a any of the goalies above my average list over Biron. Any day of the week.
Joseph at this point in his career -?? not sure about that.
What makes Giguere, Vokoun or Cechmanek better than Biron?

Out of all those goalies listed I'd say the following would FOR SURE make us better:
Belfour
Brodeur
Luongo
Turco

That's it IMO.

Possibly but not for sure:

Theodore -best of the "possibles"
Khabibulin -good chance
Nabokov -good chance to get us in the playoffs but then what?
Roloson -good chance
Raycroft -not sold on him
Kipprosoff -we'd need more than 40 games from him though
Aebischer -not sold on him
Lalime -not how hw played this year

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04-07-2004, 04:34 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fan-of-#9
What makes Giguere, Vokoun or Cechmanek better than Biron?

Out of all those goalies listed I'd say the following would FOR SURE make us better:
Belfour
Brodeur
Luongo
Turco

That's it IMO.

Possibly but not for sure:

Theodore -best of the "possibles"
Khabibulin -good chance
Nabokov -good chance to get us in the playoffs but then what?
Roloson -good chance
Raycroft -not sold on him
Kipprosoff -we'd need more than 40 games from him though
Aebischer -not sold on him
Lalime -not how hw played this year
Vokoun- Just took a team thats WORSE than Buffalo to the playoffs, though, after thinking about it, I would put Vokoun in with the average goalie category.
Cechmanek, career stats- 110-64-28 with a 2.08 GAA and a .919 SP%.
Giguere- The REASON the Ducks went to the playoffs last year. Conn Smythe trophy for the LOSING team.

Also, you say alot about goalies playoff records (i.e. Nabakov). Hasek's playoff record wasn't that great UNTIL the 98-99 season, also, these goalies all have one thing that Biron doesn't. They've BEEN to the playoffs.

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04-07-2004, 04:45 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdoak
Vokoun- Just took a team thats WORSE than Buffalo to the playoffs, though, after thinking about it, I would put Vokoun in with the average goalie category.
Cechmanek, career stats- 110-64-28 with a 2.08 GAA and a .919 SP%.
Giguere- The REASON the Ducks went to the playoffs last year. Conn Smythe trophy for the LOSING team.

Also, you say alot about goalies playoff records (i.e. Nabakov). Hasek's playoff record wasn't that great UNTIL the 98-99 season, also, these goalies all have one thing that Biron doesn't. They've BEEN to the playoffs.
Right and Biron is the reason why we haven't been to the playoffs. Without Biron (ie. starting a guy like Cloutier or even Noronen) we'd have been contending for the top lottery pick in 01-02, not the playoffs.


It seems that we agree on some things but not all.

01-02 -We all agree (I think) that Biron had a solid year as a 1st year starter.
02-03 -Here's the problem: You blame Biron....I blame the team.
03-04 -You seem to blame Biron for us not getting in this year, but IMO if Noronen played better down the stretch we'd be in. (3-9-1 in last 13 starts) -I also blame Ruff for not starting Biron this year from Day 1.

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04-08-2004, 04:32 AM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fan-of-#9
Right and Biron is the reason why we haven't been to the playoffs. Without Biron (ie. starting a guy like Cloutier or even Noronen) we'd have been contending for the top lottery pick in 01-02, not the playoffs.
Hold your horses here. So, Biron is blameless for how he played in the 1st half...the team played horrible in front of him, but its all because of him we had a great second half???? No, no, and no. Its the way the TEAM played that got Buffalo into the playoff race. Biron got more goal support down the strech than any other Buffalo goalie. You could have put Askey in there and he'd have a winning record.
Biron's record when Buffalo scores 3 goals or less since January 1st:
7-9-3. So, in order to win consistently, Buffalo had to score 4 goals or more down the strech, which they did 13 of Birons last 32 starts. So, Biron did pretty well down the strech, 19-10-3, but over
60% of his wins, all he had to do was keep less than 3 goals out of the net. A quick stat for you: 43 goalies in the NHL this season with a goals against average of less than 3. No, Biron WAS NOT the reason for the late playoff run. Biron was the BENEFACTOR off playing behind a good team!! Just like Cloutier and Lalime, he compiled a good record because of how well his team played in front of him while putting up average stats. Pretty please, get off this 'Biron was the reason Buffalo almost made the playoffs' crap, because its just not true.

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04-08-2004, 10:11 AM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fan-of-#9
My main reason for not wanting to replace Biron with Noronen/Miller is because there is a HIGH CHANCE that our goaltending will be worse. With the team assembled and 3 years of tinkering to get where we are, I'm not ready to risk all that on the shoulders of 2 unproven and unexperienced goalies. You even said that you want them (Miller and Noronen) to fight it out. That could be disastrous.

Biron has had an average career. He can have a good career when it's over, maybe better than good.

My biggest beef in this argument is that:

A) Biron hasn't been given a FAIR CHANCE by management

B) Biron IS NOT the reason why this team has missed the playoffs for 3 straight years.

C) Biron is just as good as the MAJORITY of goalies in this league.
1. Biron WILL NOT SIGNIFICANTLY IMPROVE. He is 27 next year and has already played over 200 games. You can't count on goaltenders to improve after that. So how the hell is he going to go from average to good to maybe better than good?

2. Biron has been given more than a fair chance by management. Roloson didn't get a fair chance, and was jettisoned so Biron could back up Hasek. Since Hasek has left, Biron has played in over 72% of Sabres games. HOW IS THIS NOT A FAIR CHANCE? To contrast, Noronen has played in under 25% since then and Miller has played in roughly 10% of Sabres games over the past two years. Biron has been the only goaltender to actually play in enough games where we know what we have. And despite your emotionalistic posts featuring emphasis and exclamation points, if you look at Ruff's goaltending choices, he went with the winning goaltender early in the year. In 3 cases, he went back to Biron after a Noronen loss. Not once did he play Noronen after a Biron win. This strategy wasn't employed after Biron became ineffective, and then after Noronen got injured. In any case, the goaltender who got favor in any case is Biron.

3. Biron may not be the only reason we've missed the playoffs, but goaltending has been one of them. And to improve a team, you need to acquire and play players with upside. We are three deep in goaltenders, which represents a strength of sorts. The easiest way to improve our team is deal a goaltender, and Biron - the goalie with the least upside of the three - should be the one to be dealt.

4. Biron is an average goalie. He is 23rd (out of 69) among goalies and 34th (out of 66, so he wasn't better than half) last year. That isn't good enough.

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04-08-2004, 10:17 AM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fan-of-#9
Right and Biron is the reason why we haven't been to the playoffs. Without Biron (ie. starting a guy like Cloutier or even Noronen) we'd have been contending for the top lottery pick in 01-02, not the playoffs.

It seems that we agree on some things but not all.

01-02 -We all agree (I think) that Biron had a solid year as a 1st year starter.
02-03 -Here's the problem: You blame Biron....I blame the team.
03-04 -You seem to blame Biron for us not getting in this year, but IMO if Noronen played better down the stretch we'd be in. (3-9-1 in last 13 starts) -I also blame Ruff for not starting Biron this year from Day 1.
Biron has never had a solid year. He's had lousy half years and great second halfs. He did that in 2001-2 and 2003-4. He was inconsistent most of last year and actually tanked at the very end of 2002-3.

You blame Ruff for not playing a .899 goalie, because that's what Biron was in the first half of this year?

Blame Noronen's second half if you want, but then blame Biron's first half. And if you give credit for Biron's second half, give credit for Noronen's first half.

The difference between Biron and Noronen over the past two years is .003. BIG DEAL. Trade the expensive vet with little upside, and play the cheaper, younger player with more upside.

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04-08-2004, 10:35 AM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdoak
I have to disagree here:

There's Brodeur, Belfour, Joseph, and Luongo, the games best goalies. Then there's Theodore, Turco, Khabibulin, Giguere, Ceckmanek Nabakov, Vokun and Roloson. THEN you have your Goalies who broke out this year in Dipeitro, Raycroft, and Kiprusoff. Now, you have your average NHL starting goaltender: Hackett, Lalime, Aesbischer, Nurminen, Osgood, Cloutier, Grahome, Weekes, Legace, Turek, Esche, Burke, and Biron. I would happily take a any of the goalies above my average list over Biron. Any day of the week.

I have to agree with you on this mdoak...I would take anyone of these goalies over Biron except Chokemanek. The chances of Biron going into next year playing completely different then the past 2 years is very unlikely. Marty is what he is....a goalie who can be awesome one night and terrbile the next....one minute make a huge save the next let in some flutter puck that was just embarrasing to let in. We need to cut our ties and move on with Mika and Miller as our goalies next year..

I propose using Marty as trade bait to possibly move up in the draft...try and grab Barker.Perhaps the Rangers would take him...

Sabres: 6th overall
Rangers: 13th overall, Biron

thoughts?

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04-08-2004, 07:32 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Takeo21
Simple question.
Maybe because we didn't win enough games? Just a hunch.

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