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Round 2, Vote 4 (2009 update)

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08-24-2009, 02:05 PM
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Excellent breakdown, overpass.

After the HSP is complete I look forward to seeing more of this kind of stuff (and doing a lot of it myself, too)

sv% breakdowns for goalies based on situation have also proven to be very telling.

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08-24-2009, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
BTW who were the 16 ahead of Brad Park on the ES list? You raised a point kindly support it.
If you bothered to click the link in my post you can easily see that for yourself. The fact that you are even asking leads me to believe that you never even bother to look at evidence that people link contrary to your arguments. I mean come on, I put a friggin link right in the post! How much easier can it get?

Career Even Strength Goals
1. Paul Coffey (241)
2. Raymond Bourque (221)
3. Phil Housley (202)
4. Bobby Orr (178)
5. Denis Potvin (173)
T6. Larry Murphy (164)
T6. Al MacInnis (164)
8. Doug Wilson (143)
9. Larry Robinson (139)
10. Steve Duchesne (133)
T11. Kevin Hatcher (128)
T11. Brian Leetch (128)
13. Reed Larson (126)
14. Ron Greschner (122)
15. Mathieu Schneider (118)
16. Scott Stevens (116)
17. Brad Park (115)
18. Mark Howe (111)
19. Carol Vadnais (109)
20. Guy Lapointe (108)

Career Power Play Goals
1. Ray Bourque (173)
2. Al MacInnis (166)
3. Paul Coffey (135)
4. Rob Blake (132)
5. Phil Housley (129)
6. Denis Potvin (127)
7. Nicklas Lidstrom (116)
8. Larry Murphy (114)
9. Brian Leetch (111)
10. Mathieu Schneider (99)
11. Brad Park (93)
12. Kevin Hatcher (91)
13. Gary Suter (90)
14. Reed Larson (88)
T15. Dave Babych (86)
T15. Sergei Gonchar (86)
T17. Scott Niedermayer (85)
T17. Doug Wilson (85)
19. Steve Duchesne (84)
20. Sergei Zubov (81)
21. Jeff Brown (80)
22. Bobby Orr (76)
T23. Rob Ramage (75)
T23. Scott Stevens (75)
25. Chris Pronger (74)
26. Fredrik Olausson (72)
27. Chris Chelios (69)
T28. Bryan McCabe (67)
T28. Sandis Ozolinsh (67)
30. Larry Robinson (66)
31. Paul Reinhart (65)
32. Dave Ellett (63)
33. James Patrick (62)
34. Doug Bodger (61)
35. Guy Lapointe (59)

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08-24-2009, 04:50 PM
Dennis Bonvie
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Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
Here are my 10 hopefuls for the next round:

Max Bentley
Charlie Conacher
Busher jackson
Doug Bentley
Andy Bathgate
Chuck gardiner
Frank Mahovolich
Marcel dionne
Ted kennedy
Pierre pilote

I think I have 5 in common with GBC but only 3 in common with MXD (surprise, surprise)
Next 10

Dit Clapper
Andy Bathgate
Marcel Dionne
Bill Durnan
Cy Denneny
Earl Seibert
Turk Broda
Pierre Pilote
Anatoli Firsov
Peter Forsberg

3 in common. Its starting to spread out.

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08-24-2009, 05:21 PM
Dennis Bonvie
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I'm on vacation and not in the mood to go on a long rant about Brodeur's unprecendented ability to keep shots against down, so I'll just make a few bullet points.

1) His puck handling ability changed the strategy of entire teams. Dump and chase teams like the Flyers had to adjust their offensive strategy, because they knew that any soft dump was coming right out.

2) Brodeur's ability to move the puck out of his zone by himself meant less wear and tear on his defensemen, is a big reason why they were rarely injured, and thus contributed to the strength of the defense in front of him.

From 94-03, Stevens missed 18 games total.
From 94-00 and 01-04 (removing his holdout), Niedermayer missed 38 games total.

The fact that Brodeur's puckhandling completely negated the soft dump in meant his dmen didn't have to take punishment in the corners, which made them less prone to injuries, which in turn made the defense in front of Brodeur better.

3) The negation of the soft dump in made Brodeur's defensemen able to hold the blue line with much more confidence.

4) The NHL changed the rules because they thought Brodeur's puckhandling was so good, that it was breaking the game! Yes, they never specifically said the trapezoid was because of Brodeur specifically, but everyone knows that if it wasn't for his tremendous success as a 3rd defenseman, they would have never made the rule. Without Brodeur's dominance, the puck moving ability of guys like Turco and Dipietro would be more of an interesting novelty.

The rule was Bobby Clarke's brainchild, and Clarke had been complaining about the way Brodeur negated dump ins for years. (Note point 1 again on the especially large effect Brodeur had on dump and chase teams like the Flyers). I know some around here try to diminish the effect of Brodeur's puck handling, but if it wasn't important, why would the NHL create a new rule to stop it? Gretzky is the only other individual player I can think of who "broke" the game so much that the NHL had to change the rules to stop him from doing so (the end of 4 on 4 for coincidental minors). They did it for the 50s Canadien powerplay, but that was a group of players.

Google "Brodeur Rule" for various links if you want support.

5) Relatedly, Brodeur is very aggressive with the pokecheck, which stops shots before they register on goal. Very different from a butterfly goalie who would tend to let the shots hit him, thus counting as a save.
I think everyone can agree that Brodeur is the best puck handling goalie ever. And you are correct, he is one of the best pokecheckers also.

But I think the conclusions you reach may be a little ambitious.

I don't think Brodeur's ability to handle the puck has anything to do with the good health of Stevens or Niedermayer. In Steven's first 7 seasons with Washington he missed 15 games. Since Niedermayer left NJ, in 3 full seasons he's missed 3 games.

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08-24-2009, 05:54 PM
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Lost in Your Numbers

Originally Posted by Jekyll View Post
Yes. Every debate is being dragged on weird tangents which have little/nothing to do with anything.

Its not surprising that the first 2 rounds of voting had twice as many pages as last year. What is surprising is that those extra pages consist mostly of the rest of the History section arguing with one person looking to be the center of attention.
Lost in your numbers are two convenient facts that you chose to ignore.

Link to previous vote:

This time around you have 35 as opposed to 26 participants so more participants generates more comment and pages. 34.6% increase.

Last time you were voting in groups of five players, this time in groups of ten players.Double the number of players for consideration and the expectation is that the number of pages increase in proportion. Example if you need 5-9 pages to discuss the merit of players for 5 slots, then the expectation would be that you would need 10-18 pages to discuss the merit of players for 10 slots.

Given the 34.6% increase in participants, things seem to be more efficient than anticipated.

Last edited by Canadiens1958: 08-24-2009 at 05:58 PM. Reason: oops
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