HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > Fantasy Hockey Talk > All Time Draft
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

All Time Draft Fantasy league where players of the past and present meet.

All-X2 Draft Sign Up Thread

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-05-2005, 12:31 PM
  #801
Frightened Inmate #2
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Calgary
Posts: 4,385
vCash: 500
Yeah Woooo Doug Wilson....

Frightened Inmate #2 is offline  
Old
03-05-2005, 12:36 PM
  #802
monkey_00*
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Country:
Posts: 5,022
vCash: 500
BM67..........

I couldn't help but to go over that roster of yours once more....like I said before I think you have too many players from before 1967.........like I said too many guys on your roster from before 1967.....in their day those guys were great players but alot of them wouldn't be as good going up against the greats of today....anyways the players from your roster from before 1967:

Ted Lindsay
Charlie Conacher
Dit Clapper
Dickie Moore
Earl Seibert
Teeder Kennedy
Elmer Lach
Turk Broda...no mask
Frank Boucher
Syl Apps Sr
Lester Patrick
Woody Dumart
George Hainsworth...no mask Part II
Doug Mohns

14 guys from before 1967...........alot of those guys YES got first allstar team selections but if they had to go up against alot of the modern day guys they wouldn't even have HALF the number of allstar team selections that they had IMO.........

....................Oh well.........good luck in the next draft.

monkey_00* is offline  
Old
03-05-2005, 02:12 PM
  #803
monkey_00*
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Country:
Posts: 5,022
vCash: 500
At this stage of the game I just wanted to let everyone know that I will personally come out with a more accurate ranking for each of the teams in this League of ours.........some teams had too many Russians and others had too much pure talent and not enough GRIT.......remember Team Canada 1972?.....their most effective line was the Ron Ellis-Bobby Clarke-Paul Henderson line.........every team needs their "muckers and pluggers".......you need a good balanced team to go all the way........PLUS some of the teams in this draft of ours were LOADED with NHL playoff calibre performers...and NHL playoff CLUTCH players...(like my team for example)........can anyone tell me a more gruelling hockey tournament then the Stanley Cup playoffs?.......How many of those Russian hockey players played in the NHL Stanley Cup playoffs that Maxwell Edison drafted for his hockey team?.....exactly..........not too many..........

I'll have something ready in about a months time.........until then:


KEEP YOUR STICKS ON THE ICE

monkey_00* is offline  
Old
03-05-2005, 02:13 PM
  #804
monkey_00*
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Country:
Posts: 5,022
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benton Fraser
Yeah Woooo Doug Wilson....
...............Ummmm....you say something?

monkey_00* is offline  
Old
03-05-2005, 02:53 PM
  #805
Frightened Inmate #2
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Calgary
Posts: 4,385
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkey_00
At this stage of the game I just wanted to let everyone know that I will personally come out with a more accurate ranking for each of the teams in this League of ours.........some teams had too many Russians and others had too much pure talent and not enough GRIT.......remember Team Canada 1972?.....their most effective line was the Ron Ellis-Bobby Clarke-Paul Henderson line.........every team needs their "muckers and pluggers".......you need a good balanced team to go all the way........PLUS some of the teams in this draft of ours were LOADED with NHL playoff calibre performers...and NHL playoff CLUTCH players...(like my team for example)........can anyone tell me a more gruelling hockey tournament then the Stanley Cup playoffs?.......How many of those Russian hockey players played in the NHL Stanley Cup playoffs that Maxwell Edison drafted for his hockey team?.....exactly..........not too many..........
Your seriously saying that they are worse players for being in a brutal Soviet sports system where they had to train more than any players do in the NHL, and at the same time represent their nation at all of the international tournements and all the rest of that crap.

Here is a little blurb from Tretiak about the Soviet method of training.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladislav Tretiak
Training camp was in a suburb of Moscow. It started in July. We had rest for only one month. In July 1, we started a two-month training camp. We had three practices every day. We'd wake up at 7:15, then at 7:25 run for one hour. Breakfast at 9. Eleven to 1 was training on dry land that was very hard. Then after lunch we'd sleep for two hours, then have one more practice from 5-7. It was very tough. I didn't like training camp. Because sometimes the start of the season I would be so tired because it was unbelievable. In Chicago it's three hours, no more. In Russia, training camp was so hard. And we did this for 11 months out of the year with the same team. It was tough.

If that isn't enough proof for you just look at some quotes for Firsov about Tarasov and the way in which he coached.

Quote:
Interviewer: When Tarassov...?
Firsov: I saw him, when I played with TsSKA for Spartak in Sokol'niki, we won 3:1. I drove to Puchkov such a puck that nobody could see it. There was no Tarassov yet at that time, but I felt that this was an idea of Tarassov coming. That was in September, and in November I was already recruited to the Army. And sometime in early January Tarassov had come, and it was here, where the most horrible suffering had begun. I came puny, 67 kilograms, weight was light, technical and mental abilities were so much faster, that physical capabilities were not enough. And so Tarassov started 2-3 trainings [per day] with me. I did not imagine [before] what are these trainings. Guys, who were trained under Tarassov before that, sustained that. But I, during first days, fell down after trainings and could not even stand up.

These trainings continued sometime until April. In April he gave me a schedule, how to spend vacations, and he wrote me three trainings for every day.

Interviewer: How important was hockey for Tarassov?

Firsov: That was Tarassov could be called a dictator of the hockey. It could not be in any kind of business, either in art or sports or politics without a dictator of some kind. It was not clear to me who that might be, how one can train himself, self-trainings. First time under his leadership I could not train quietly; I could not understand what he demands from me. But then, when he rooted me love to these trainings, I trained permanently until 27. I did not understand how it is to train once or twice a day. Even on vacations, when I went to Zhemchuzhnyi, there was a stairway of 150 steps. I necessarily in the morning went down on my left foot, than on my right foot, then went to swim, made big exercises with a weight in the afternoon, played tennis in the evenings, forces permitting, run on a hill in the evenings. Therefore today this stairs was named after me.


To say that the Soviets had it easy because they didn't play in the NHL is ignorant to say the least. These players were in better shape than any player in the NHL today, and I mean it when I say any player.

Frightened Inmate #2 is offline  
Old
03-05-2005, 03:53 PM
  #806
monkey_00*
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Country:
Posts: 5,022
vCash: 500
.................OK kids..........OFF to Round #3.....ding ding ding ding

monkey_00* is offline  
Old
03-05-2005, 08:51 PM
  #807
monkey_00*
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Country:
Posts: 5,022
vCash: 500
"To say that the Soviets had it easy because they didn't play in the NHL is ignorant to say the least. These players were in better shape than any player in the NHL today, and I mean it when I say any player."
----------------------------------------

Benton Fraser...............

I couldn't help but notice that last little bit you had to say there....now you are starting to put words in my mouth.........I NEVER said the 'Soviets had it easy'........what I did say HOWEVER is there isn't a MORE gruelling tournament than the Stanley Cup playoffs which most (if not all) of those Russians on your roster didn't participate in...........I have alot of respect for Russian hockey players since I drafted 3 to my own hockey club; Pavel Bure, Alexander Yakushev and Vladimir Lutchenko...PLUS you can also throw in the head coach Mister Viktor Tikhonov........ALSO, you can't have both ways either.....on one hand you are telling all of us in here that Viktor Tikhonov wouldn't be a great coach against the NHLers or coaching a club like mine made of of mostly NHLers and then on the flip side of the coin you are telling us that the Russians can compete in the NHL (which I do agree).......Trust me I know you wanted Tikhonov on your roster it's just too bad he's on my hockey club.......I also think he was on ALOT of other peoples minds in here as well since at that stage of the draft the only coach that had been selected was Scotty Bowman BUT as soon as I drafted Viktor Tikhonov guess WHAT?.....at least half of the guys in our draft when on to draft their head coach with their very next pick...so what does that tell you right there?.....It tells me that alot of guys wanted to draft him too not just the two of us BUT as soon as I drafted the guy half the guys figured they'd better start chasing down a head coach for themselves since the two best ones are no longer available in the draft.

monkey_00* is offline  
Old
03-05-2005, 08:55 PM
  #808
monkey_00*
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Country:
Posts: 5,022
vCash: 500
.............one more point regarding Viktor Tikhonov.........I wish the guy would have been able to coach in the NHL.....we've seen the players come over.......I think he would have done some amazing things with that NHL club he was coaching if he was given the opportunity to do so...........Oh well.

monkey_00* is offline  
Old
03-05-2005, 09:49 PM
  #809
BM67
Registered User
 
BM67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In "The System"
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,632
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkey_00
BM67..........

I couldn't help but to go over that roster of yours once more....like I said before I think you have too many players from before 1967.........like I said too many guys on your roster from before 1967.....in their day those guys were great players but alot of them wouldn't be as good going up against the greats of today....anyways the players from your roster from before 1967:

Ted Lindsay
Charlie Conacher
Dit Clapper
Dickie Moore
Earl Seibert
Teeder Kennedy
Elmer Lach
Turk Broda...no mask
Frank Boucher
Syl Apps Sr
Lester Patrick
Woody Dumart
George Hainsworth...no mask Part II
Doug Mohns

14 guys from before 1967...........alot of those guys YES got first allstar team selections but if they had to go up against alot of the modern day guys they wouldn't even have HALF the number of allstar team selections that they had IMO.........

....................Oh well.........good luck in the next draft.

Wow, what an argument. All the players before 1967 suck. I surrender.

Bobby Orr played before 67. He sucks!

Bobby Hull played before 67. He sucks!! If only he could skate or shot the puck!

Gordie Howe played before 67. He sucks!!

Rocket Richard played before 67. He sucks!! If only he had of worked on his backhand or shown just a little heart, he might have been a decent player!

Henri Richard, Dave Keon, Alexander Yakushev, Vladimir Lutchenko, and Vladimir Dzurilla all played before 67. They suck!!! Why would someone waste perfectly good picks on players like them?

What's your next arguement monkey_00? That Lester Patrick sucks because he's dead?

One more time for those not paying attention:

Hamilton Tigers Allstar team selections:
1st Team Allstars:

1973, 1976, 1977, 1978, 1979...Ken Dryden
1977, 1979, 1980,...Larry Robinson
1982...Doug Wilson
1958...Henri Richard
1994...Pavel Bure
2001, 2002, 2004...Joe Sakic
2002...Jarome Iginla
1987...Ron Hextall
2004...Zdeno Chara


That's 17 for Hamilton.

All-star Teams:
Orr - 1st: 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75
Mikita - 1st:68
Hasek - 1st: 94, 95, 97, 98, 99, 01
Howe 1st: 83, 86, 87 WHA: 79
Horton 1st: 68, 69

That's 20 for NJ, not including Mark's WHA spot, from just 68 and on.

All-star Teams:
Mikita - 1st: 62, 63, 64, 66, 67
Lindsay - 1st: 48, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 56, 57
C. Conacher - 1st: 34, 35, 36
Clapper 1st: 39, 40, 41
Moore - 1st: 58, 59
Seibert - 1st: 35, 42, 43, 44;
Lach 1st: 45, 48, 52
Broda - 1st: 41, 48
Boucher 1st: 33, 34, 35
Horton 1st: 64
Apps 1st: 39, 42
Bouchard 1st: 45, 46, 47 PCHA: 23, 24 WCHL: 25
Patrick 1st: 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 38 PCHA: 13, 15, 16, 17

That's 45 more not included in the 20 above, and another 7 from the PCHA and WCHL. So that's 65 NHL spots, and 73 in all.

Let's give Hamilton credit for 10 more for his European players, and they have 27. Let's take out Orr and count only the NHL spots from the 50's on, which gives NJ a total of 28.

Do you begin to get the picture yet?

BM67 is offline  
Old
03-05-2005, 11:45 PM
  #810
monkey_00*
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Country:
Posts: 5,022
vCash: 500
BM67.................

You're sounding quite upset tonight.......no need to be........we're simply talking hockey in here.......just breath in a little and relax ok buddy

NOW.........I know your players have more allstar team selections, that's not the point I was making with you.......the point I was making with you is the VAST majority of your players got their allstar team selections in a different ERA a VERY looooong time ago...back when there was only 6-teams in the NHL....AGAIN, those players you selected were great IN THEIR DAY.......HOWEVER, most of my players were selected AFTER 1967 and most people will tell YOU that the players that came AFTER 1967 (for the most part) are MUCH Superior than those players from the past like those "ancient wonders" on your roster........no need to add up how many allstar team selections my team picked up cause I already knew what the answer to that one was already....................

These are your CORE group of players:

Ted Lindsay
Charlie Conacher
Dit Clapper
Dickie Moore
Earl Seibert
Teeder Kennedy
Elmer Lach
Turk Broda...no mask
Frank Boucher
Syl Apps Sr
Lester Patrick
Woody Dumart
George Hainsworth...no mask Part II
Doug Mohns

Alot of these guys by today's NHL-standards are "midgets".....that's not to say that I don't have any small-sized players on my roster because I do BUT, it's like 85% of your roster is 6-feet and under....as well I don't think guys like Dickie Moore, Elmer Lach, Dit Clapper and the Woody Dumarts of the world would stand a chance going up against my guys like the Sakics, Bures, Savards, Yakushevs and Robinsons..........PLUS you have 3-goalies on your squad and TWO of them played withOUT a mask......heh heh heh......having won all those allstar team selections in the NHLs DISTANT past will not change the fact that most of the players on your roster would suffer from what I like to term CULTURE SHOCK, ya....that's right...CULTURE SHOCK and you want to know why that is?.......well I'll tell you why just because I am a nice guy BM67.........my guys like Bure, Yakushev, Sakic and Iginla will be skating down the ice and letting loose one of their BLISTERING slappers and what happens if one of those SLAPPERS ends up getting Turk Broda or George Hainsworth in the face?.....huh?......yes....CULTURE SHOCK!..........you want another scenario?.....ok...here's another.....Teeder Kennedy who stands at roughly 5-foot 8-inches (and the bulk of your forwards are of the same height and weight as Kennedy) skates down the ice into my defensive Zone and then my two GOLIATHS Zdeno Chara and Larry Robinson SANDWICH Kennedy along the boards and knocks him out silly has to be carried out of the rink and onto a stretcher...well maybe not exactly like that exactly but you get the picture right?...... I have some pretty BIG guys on my blueline and guys like Lach, Moore, Kennedy never had to face a netminder like Ken Dryden and ESPECIALLY Ron Hextall who most of the time would end up shooting the puck out of our zone just as FAST as it got in.....those players of yours who played their NHL hockey back in the 1930s, 40s and 50s never played against a netminder like that....How would they handle it?.....again CULTURE SHOCK............

Furthermore, guys like BOBBY HULL and GORDIE HOWE do not suck....I never said they do......there are exceptions to the rule and there are I do admit A HANDFUL of players from the past....I REPEAT, a Handful of players from the past who would do "ok" in todays NHL like HULL and HOWE but Unfortunately for you Sir you did not draft those 2-guys for your hockey club....tisk tisk tisk....Oh well....too bad..so sad......you did HOWEVER draft BOBBY ORR with your first pick (second pick overall) which is what I would have selected myself if I too had the opportunity to draft second overall....IMO I think you have the BEST player in the draft when you drafted #4 ORR.....I also like Hasek and Stan Mikita....your first 3-selections were GOLD...I probably couldn't have done a better job myself...HOWEVER...after those 3-picks your selections in this draft REALLY took a nose-dive...........I know what you were doing...you had one browser open on hfboards.com for the draft...and then you had a second browser opened with a complete listing of the 1st and 2nd team allstar selections from over the years which I might add is not an entirely bad idea BUT where you went wrong is you went TOO FAR BACK and drafted the hockey great from a different ERA in the NHL's DISTANT PAST......players from the 1930s, 40s, and 50s were great in their day but are no match whatsoever for the calibre of players of today and POST-1967 who are MUCH bigger, stronger, faster and BETTER............

.........................Now do you capiche Senior BM67?.............

.....................It's now 12:40 pm Sunday morning March the 6th and your listening to the monkey_00 on hfboards.com

monkey_00* is offline  
Old
03-06-2005, 01:17 AM
  #811
Hockey Outsider
Registered User
 
Hockey Outsider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,033
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkey_00
NOW.........I know your players have more allstar team selections, that's not the point I was making with you.......the point I was making with you is the VAST majority of your players got their allstar team selections in a different ERA a VERY looooong time ago...back when there was only 6-teams in the NHL....
Yes, many of BM67's players played in a smaller league. But wouldn't this fact mean that the quality of the talent pool was higher? Most of his players played in eras with fewer teams and smaller rosters; only the best of the best made the NHL. They consistently played against elite players, night in and night out. The same isn't true today.

Also, older players regularly played 40-50 minutes per game. I'd love to have Dit Clapper and Frank Boucher able to play 3/4ths of every game. You're lucky if you can get 30 minutes out of the most durable modern players.

[QUOTE=monkey_00]I REPEAT, a Handful of players from the past who would do "ok" in todays NHL like HULL and HOWEGordie Howe scored 41 points playing in the NHL as a 52 year old in 1980. Howe, way past his prime, was more than "ok" in the modern NHL; in his prime he still would have dominated.

Hockey Outsider is offline  
Old
03-06-2005, 09:19 AM
  #812
BM67
Registered User
 
BM67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In "The System"
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,632
vCash: 500
OK, we'll use your list of player sizes for your team from your post above and compare forwards.

Tim Kerr, RW/C 63, 230
Alexander Yakushev, LW 63, 200
Dit Clapper, D/RW - 62, 195
Bob Gainey, LW 62, 190
Peter Bondra, RW - 61, 205
Charlie Conacher, RW - 61, 202
Jerome Iginla, RW 61, 202
John Tonelli, LW 61, 195
Woody Dumart, LW - 60, 200
John MacLean, RW - 60, 200
Syl Apps Sr., C - 60, 195
Joe Sakic, C 511, 185
Teeder Kennedy, C - 511, 180
Glenn Anderson, RW 511, 175
Pavel Bure, RW 510, 192
Dickie Moore, LW - 510, 185
Dino Ciccarelli, RW 510, 180
Denis Savard, C 510, 175
Elmer Lach, C - 510, 170
Butch Goring, C 510, 165
Frank Boucher, C - 59, 185
Newsy Lalonde, C - 59, 170
Stan Mikita, C/RW 59, 170
Dave Keon, C 59, 165
Ted Lindsay, LW 58, 165
Henri Richard, C 57, 160

Average Sizes
Tigers: F: 5'11.4", 185.7
Devils: F: 5'10.9", 186.3

Now say again about how my players are way too small to compete. Tell me again how slow skaters like Dave Andreychuk can't cut it in the modern NHL. Tell me again how small players like Theo Fleury can't cut it in the modern NHL. Then tell me one bad thing about any of my players besides "he played before 67 so he sucks", and I might believe you know anything about them.

I can say Kerr lacks foot speed, and is better suited to playing the wing, or Bure plays defense like he thinks he'll get fined every time he goes behind his own teams blueline.

Come on monkey, tell me Boucher takes bad penalties, or Lach and Apps are poor skaters. Tell me Conacher and Seibert were terrible fighters.

1979-80: Gordie Howe age 52, John Tonelli age 23
Howe 80 gp 15 g 26 a 41 pt 42 pim +9
Tonelli 77 gp 14 g 30 a 44 pt 49 pim +8

BM67 is offline  
Old
03-06-2005, 10:32 AM
  #813
Spitfire11
Registered User
 
Spitfire11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,786
vCash: 500
I don't want to look through 55 pages, so does anyone know what page has all the rosters listed, or could someone please post one.

Spitfire11 is online now  
Old
03-06-2005, 10:44 AM
  #814
BM67
Registered User
 
BM67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In "The System"
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,632
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfire11
I don't want to look through 55 pages, so does anyone know what page has all the rosters listed, or could someone please post one.
I posted the final rosters on 48. If you're looking for lines and such, I'd guess you'd have to look at the pages just before that for when people made their last few picks.

BM67 is offline  
Old
03-06-2005, 01:46 PM
  #815
monkey_00*
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Country:
Posts: 5,022
vCash: 500
Yes, many of BM67's players played in a smaller league. But wouldn't this fact mean that the quality of the talent pool was higher? Most of his players played in eras with fewer teams and smaller rosters; only the best of the best made the NHL. They consistently played against elite players, night in and night out. The same isn't true today.

Not necessarily so.....exactly his players (most of them) played in an earlier Era with fewer teams and your not going to tell me that the overall talent level of the NHL back then was as good as it is today...It's not even close.....the NHL back then didn't have all those skilled Russians and Europeans that we see now playing in the NHL........guys like Turk Broda and George Hainsworth didn't have to go up against players like Pavel Bure, Alexander Yakushev and Joe Sakic in their day....don't start comparing todays elite players with the players from the past like Dit Clapper, Elmer Lach and Woody Dumart cause it's not even close...........

Also, older players regularly played 40-50 minutes per game. I'd love to have Dit Clapper and Frank Boucher able to play 3/4ths of every game. You're lucky if you can get 30 minutes out of the most durable modern players.

Sure they did your right....guys like Dit Clapper and Frank Boucher played 40-50 minute games against a much inferior talent base than what we have today....it was a different ERA altogether.....those 2 guys you're using as example wouldn't stand a chance playing in today's NHL logging up that much ice time against the Bigger, Stronger and MUCH Faster players of today....If Boucher and Clapper played in the NHL today are you telling everybody here that those two guys would log up 40-50 minute games in the NHL 2005?....ummm, I don't think so bro.........those two guys may have been some of the best in their day but if we were to somehow bring those two guys (when they were still in their prime) upto 2005 via a time machine they wouldn't even finish among the Top-25 of defencemen playing in the NHL today......on the flip-side of the coin if we invent a time machine and shuffle Zdeno Chara off to those early days of the NHL when the Bouchers and the Clappers played in the League CHARA would EASILY be better than both of those two guys AND would be the best defenceman in the NHL....he would even get quite a few 1st alstar team selections......same thing with Larry Robinson.....all those 1st place allstar team selections that some of those guys may have gotten back then doesn't mean a thing if they play in the NHL in 2005 simply because almost all of them would never get those 1st place allstar team selections that they picked up in the past playing against the MUCH superior talent base of today's NHL........

Gordie Howe scored 41 points playing in the NHL as a 52 year old in 1980. Howe, way past his prime, was more than "ok" in the modern NHL; in his prime he still would have dominated..........

Yes Gordie Howe was great......if you go back and look at what I've been saying all along you would quickly discover that I said only a HANDFUL of players from the past would do ok playing today and he was one of them Bobby Hull being the other BUT unfortunately for BM67 he didn't draft those two guys to play on his hockey club....he did however select players like Elmer Lach, Dickie Moore and Woody Dumart..................................Oh well.

monkey_00* is offline  
Old
03-06-2005, 02:16 PM
  #816
Frightened Inmate #2
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Calgary
Posts: 4,385
vCash: 500
Monkey, do you know anything about the players that he selected, because your entire argument is based around some pretty weak logic. In the six team NHL most of the players were Canadian that is correct. However you make the mistake of thinking that is a bad thing. Think of it this way around 55-60 percent of the players are Canadian and I would say around 5-10 percent of the players are American today. So it would be reasonable to state that in the golden days of the NHL the league would have 100% canadian players. That is correct. So Lets be conservative and say that 65% of the players of todays NHL would be eligable to make the league in the old days. However there were only 20% of the teams in the league then as there are today. So really the numbers don't match up there.

If you would then try to bring up the arguement of training being different my team would absolutely decimate any team that you would enter into the draft because I strongly believe that my team would be trained better than any team in the league... a point that you seemed to dismiss because this was nothing compared to playing in the Stanley Cup playoffs apparently.

And the mask thing, we must assume that every player is playing with the same equipment so them not wearing a mask would be a moot point in my opinion. Now if you want to make an arguement that the game was differnet in the sense that there were no forward passes and all that stuff, then fine, but to say he sucks because he didn't wear a mask is grasping for straws at the best of times.

Plus you seem to be overrating some of your players (Yakushev in particular) and thinking that just because some of them played later they are better.....

Pluis gordie would do more than ok today he would still be the dominant player it the league.

Frightened Inmate #2 is offline  
Old
03-06-2005, 02:21 PM
  #817
monkey_00*
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Country:
Posts: 5,022
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BM67
OK, we'll use your list of player sizes for your team from your post above and compare forwards.

Tim Kerr, RW/C 63, 230
Alexander Yakushev, LW 63, 200
Dit Clapper, D/RW - 62, 195
Bob Gainey, LW 62, 190
Peter Bondra, RW - 61, 205
Charlie Conacher, RW - 61, 202
Jerome Iginla, RW 61, 202
John Tonelli, LW 61, 195
Woody Dumart, LW - 60, 200
John MacLean, RW - 60, 200
Syl Apps Sr., C - 60, 195
Joe Sakic, C 511, 185
Teeder Kennedy, C - 511, 180
Glenn Anderson, RW 511, 175
Pavel Bure, RW 510, 192
Dickie Moore, LW - 510, 185
Dino Ciccarelli, RW 510, 180
Denis Savard, C 510, 175
Elmer Lach, C - 510, 170
Butch Goring, C 510, 165
Frank Boucher, C - 59, 185
Newsy Lalonde, C - 59, 170
Stan Mikita, C/RW 59, 170
Dave Keon, C 59, 165
Ted Lindsay, LW 58, 165
Henri Richard, C 57, 160

Average Sizes
Tigers: F: 5'11.4", 185.7
Devils: F: 5'10.9", 186.3

Now say again about how my players are way too small to compete. Tell me again how slow skaters like Dave Andreychuk can't cut it in the modern NHL. Tell me again how small players like Theo Fleury can't cut it in the modern NHL. Then tell me one bad thing about any of my players besides "he played before 67 so he sucks", and I might believe you know anything about them.

I can say Kerr lacks foot speed, and is better suited to playing the wing, or Bure plays defense like he thinks he'll get fined every time he goes behind his own teams blueline.

Come on monkey, tell me Boucher takes bad penalties, or Lach and Apps are poor skaters. Tell me Conacher and Seibert were terrible fighters.

1979-80: Gordie Howe age 52, John Tonelli age 23
Howe 80 gp 15 g 26 a 41 pt 42 pim +9
Tonelli 77 gp 14 g 30 a 44 pt 49 pim +8
---------------------------------------------

BM67.......................

First off I just want to start off by stating that Gordie Howe was not selected to play on your hockey club.....this is probably the third time you have raised up Gordie Howe's name and why not?...he was great but AGAIN you did not select Gordie Howe to play on your hockey club so doesn't make any sense for you to be comparing Gordie Howe to one of my players for the simple fact that Gordie Howe doesn't even play for your hockey club..........ok?......good.

Syl Apps is another of the handful of players I feel that would do ok in todays NHL but Elmer Lach I REALLY have a hard time admitting that he would do well.......

You want to talk about Tim Kerr?........ok...Let's talk a little about Tim Kerr........Tim Kerr holds the NHL record for most Powerplay goals in a season.....PLUS Tim Kerr didn't need to be a fast skater....the speed game was not his game....his game was parking that BIG 6-3, 230-pound frame of his in front of the other teams Net and chipping in the goals which worked out just fine for him since he not only owns the NHL record of most powerplay goals in a season but AS WELL went on to score 4-straight 50+ goals seasons between 1983/84-to-1987/88.......PLUS there was that one season when the Flyers went to the Finals against the Edmonton Oilers and lost....Tim Kerr was on the DL in those playoffs....I honestly feel if he was healthy and in their lineup he would have made the difference and won the Stanley Cup....PLUS Ron Hextall that season went on to win the Conn Smythe and he's also on my team............

OK next on the agenda the team's overall size.........that was a comparison you have there between our two groups of forwards....but now let's see what happens when your forwards have to go up against my defencemen who are the BIGGEST group of D-men in the entire draft.........


Hamilton Tigers D: 63.5, 215.3 (63.1, 218.1) r-l 1-6
N Jersy Devils: F: 510.8, 182.7 (510.8, 184) r-l 6-7

Big Difference right?..........that's what your small forwards will have to go up against.........

Zdeno Chara, D 69, 255
Larry Robinson, D 64, 225
Steve Smith, D 64, 215
Ron Greschner, D 62, 205

Dit Clapper, D/RW - 62, 195
Marty McSorley, D 61, 235 r
Vladimir Lutchenko, D 61, 205

Peter Bondra, RW - 61, 205
Charlie Conacher, RW - 61, 202
Doug Wilson, D 61, 187
Woody Dumart, LW - 60, 200
John MacLean, RW - 60, 200
Syl Apps Sr., C - 60, 195
Teeder Kennedy, C - 511, 180
Dickie Moore, LW - 510, 185
Elmer Lach, C - 510, 170
Frank Boucher, C - 59, 185
Newsy Lalonde, C - 59, 170
Stan Mikita, C/RW 59, 170
Ted Lindsay, LW 58, 165

The above is an EXCELLENT illustration of what I was referring to when I talked about CULTURE SHOCK.......now notice the HUGE difference in size when your forwards have to go up against my defencemen..................

ok Now compare your defencemen to my forwards:


Hamilton Tigers Forwards: F: 511.6, 189.2 (511.5, 188.9) r-l 5-8
N Jersy Devils Defencemen: D: 60.3, 190.8 (60.3, 190) r-l 3-4

You have the edge here but only SLIGHTLY....we can live with that difference, less than an inch and less than a pound differential........nothing really to lose any sleep over and nothing like the HUGE differential between your forwards and my defencemen as the above list demonstrates here to everybody.............

One more point before I forget....I just wanted to remind you once more that Gordie Howe doesn't play on your Devils hockey club.........Herby drafted him not you................oh well.

.......................Good luck in the next draft.

monkey_00* is offline  
Old
03-06-2005, 03:00 PM
  #818
Frightened Inmate #2
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Calgary
Posts: 4,385
vCash: 500
Your defense is big there is no doubt about that, but I would rather take a few d-men who were not huge, but could skate and produce even a little bit in an offensive manner. You have players like Smith, McSorley,and Chara - along with Lutchenko. That is a slow blueline that was mainly selected with the lower picks. Being tall doesn't really mean they are great players. You have players on there that were #3-4 or worse (McSorley was usually around a #4 at the best of times, same with Smith) and you seemed to select them because of their size. In my view you have one great defenseman in Robinson, a very good defenseman in Chara (for two years anyways), a could good defensemen in Wilson, and Lutchenko. And the rest are average at best defensmen.

Just being tall doesn't mean they will be great d-men, especially when coming up against some of the fastest players and most dynamic players of all time. Hell Marek Malik is from this era, he is tall why was he not selected for I am sure he would dominate 60 years ago.... well I would if I followed your logic.

Frightened Inmate #2 is offline  
Old
03-06-2005, 03:00 PM
  #819
monkey_00*
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Country:
Posts: 5,022
vCash: 500
Monkey, do you know anything about the players that he selected, because your entire argument is based around some pretty weak logic. In the six team NHL most of the players were Canadian that is correct. However you make the mistake of thinking that is a bad thing. Think of it this way around 55-60 percent of the players are Canadian and I would say around 5-10 percent of the players are American today. So it would be reasonable to state that in the golden days of the NHL the league would have 100% canadian players. That is correct. So Lets be conservative and say that 65% of the players of todays NHL would be eligable to make the league in the old days. However there were only 20% of the teams in the league then as there are today. So really the numbers don't match up there.

Yes I do I know plenty..........I am an avid fan of Sports history........I have on a number of occasions mentioned that those players he selected were great in their day..........I've also mentioned on more than one occasion that only a HANDFUL of the greats from the past would be able to compete with todays NHLers from 2004-05 and Gordie Howe being one of them but AGAIN BM67 did not draft Gordie Howe...Herby drafted Gordie Howe so he shouldn't even be bringing up Gordie Howe's name when his comparing his hockey club to mine for the simple fact that he did not draft him to play on his hockey club........who knows?.....maybe the guy gets REAL lucky and ends up drafting him for the next draft right?......heh heh heh...........the players back then in their day were great but most people will tell you (and this includes alot of the players that played in that ERA) that the players today are much bigger, stronger and faster....better all-around athlete..........the athletes in today's NHL have better training facilities and train ALL YEAR ROUND which most of the NHLers back then DIDN'T do........those NHLers use to use the training camp to get into game shape that's why back in 1972 during the Summit Series the Canadians got off to a very rocky start against the Soviets....those Soviets train all year round and the Canadians showed up to that Team Canada training camp out of shape with those HUGE Beer bellies

If you would then try to bring up the arguement of training being different my team would absolutely decimate any team that you would enter into the draft because I strongly believe that my team would be trained better than any team in the league... a point that you seemed to dismiss because this was nothing compared to playing in the Stanley Cup playoffs apparently.

I never said that you drafted badly..........I was saying instead that BM67's team was ranked too high in your rankings and was highly over-rated......your team on the other hand is probably the best in the draft..........BUT what you failed to consider when you ranked my Hamilton Tigers hockey club is I have alot of the BIG TIME NHL PLAYOFF performers........I have 7-Conn Smythe trophy winners......I also have the #1 (Sakic) and the #2 (Anderson) alltime NHL playoff OVERTIME goal scoring leaders on my team........2 of my Goalies won the Conn Smythe trophy.........most of my Smythe trophy winners played on multiple Stanley Cup winning teams and DYNASTIES (Dryden, Robinson, Gainey, Goring, Sakic, Keon)........

The other thing that you failed to consider with my team (and some of the others in our draft) is you can't have a team built soley on PURE TALENT.......you need a good balanced hockey club with talent PLUS your grinders, muckers, forecheckers and defensive-minded players.....the guys that you go to Battle with and win the Wars with like Butch Goring and John Tonelli for example....you remember these two guys?...........they played an integral part in the New York Islanders 4-straight Stanley Cup victories of the early 1980s-decade...........name me a more gruelling tournament then the Stanley Cup Playoffs?........your team has the edge over mine with the training BUT my team has the edge over yours in two other areas; Mental Toughness and HEART!.....that's what these players demonstrated in the Stanley Cup playoffs...............

The other area that you failed to consider (and you didn't even ask) was our SPECIALY teams.............below is the link to my specialty teams; Powerplay and Penalty Killing units:


http://groups.msn.com/HamiltonTigers...trategies.msnw

And the mask thing, we must assume that every player is playing with the same equipment so them not wearing a mask would be a moot point in my opinion. Now if you want to make an arguement that the game was differnet in the sense that there were no forward passes and all that stuff, then fine, but to say he sucks because he didn't wear a mask is grasping for straws at the best of times.

Ya right..........my players are playing with the mask because that is the way they played their hockey when they were in the prime of their hockey careers..........let's not be pulling straws from mid air now and make up the rules as we go along.........what's next?.....you're going to tell us that there's no SLAPSHOTS allowed in our Hockey League..........heh heh heh.........ya ok.

Plus you seem to be overrating some of your players (Yakushev in particular) and thinking that just because some of them played later they are better.....

Yakushev over-rated?..........I don't think so when he played in that 1972 Summit Series against Team Canada Phil Esposito said that Yakushev was the one guy on their hockey club that would do EXTREMELY well playing in the NHL of 1972 because he wasn't your prototypical Russian player.........he was more of a North American style player like Mahovlich and Esposito parking his way in front of the Team Canada Nets..............

I'll just go back to what I've been telling everybody in here all along..........the reason why you ranked my team as low as you did is because I drafted VIKTOR TIKHONOV to coach my team and you wanted for him to be the coach on your roster especially since most of the guys on your hockey club are made up of mostly of Russians.........Furthermore because I had the last pick in the draft at the end of Round #1 this meant that for every round thereafter I had back-to-back picks and in one of those rounds I went on to select Alexander Yakushev and Vladimir Lutchenko and right after that you said' "Damn!....those two guys were going to be my next two picks!"......look it up for yourselves it's still on record......you're just pretty sore that I picked Tikhonov to be my coach and 3 Russians (BURE, Yakushev and Lutchenko) to play on my hockey team.....Oh well......you snooze you lose.

Pluis gordie would do more than ok today he would still be the dominant player it the league.

...................For the FOURTH time BM67 did not draft Gordie Howe to play on his hockey team.......sheesh..............funny thing starting to happen here folks.....two guys Maxwell Smart and BM67 keep referring to Gordie Howe and yet none of these two guys have MR. Hockey playing for their hockey clubs........heh heh heh

....................good luck in the next draft.................It's now 4:00-pm Sunday afternoon March the 6th and your listening to the monkey_00 on hfboards.com

monkey_00* is offline  
Old
03-06-2005, 03:05 PM
  #820
Frightened Inmate #2
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Calgary
Posts: 4,385
vCash: 500
For the last time I don't care if you selected Tikhonov, you know what it really didn't factor into my decision when I ranked the teams. It seems as though you are the only person who is defending your team anyways, and most everyone else who is ranking the teams has taken the position that your team is not one of the elite teams in the draft, especially on defense, which is big, but lacks natural tallent - in a defensive or an offensive way.

Frightened Inmate #2 is offline  
Old
03-06-2005, 03:08 PM
  #821
Frightened Inmate #2
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Calgary
Posts: 4,385
vCash: 500
Second PK Unit

Butch Goring - Pavel Bure

Larry Robinson - Ron Greschner



Bure on the Penalty Kill? I like the guy as much as the next, but come on.....

Frightened Inmate #2 is offline  
Old
03-06-2005, 03:13 PM
  #822
monkey_00*
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Country:
Posts: 5,022
vCash: 500
[QUOTE=Benton Fraser]Your defense is big there is no doubt about that, but I would rather take a few d-men who were not huge, but could skate and produce even a little bit in an offensive manner. You have players like Smith, McSorley,and Chara - along with Lutchenko. That is a slow blueline that was mainly selected with the lower picks. Being tall doesn't really mean they are great players. You have players on there that were #3-4 or worse (McSorley was usually around a #4 at the best of times, same with Smith) and you seemed to select them because of their size. In my view you have one great defenseman in Robinson, a very good defenseman in Chara (for two years anyways), a could good defensemen in Wilson, and Lutchenko. And the rest are average at best defensmen.

Just being tall doesn't mean they will be great d-men, especially when coming up against some of the fastest players and most dynamic players of all time. Hell Marek Malik is from this era, he is tall why was he not selected for I am sure he would dominate 60 years ago.... well I would if I followed your logic.

Benton Fraser...................

My guys were tall and they also were great defencemen who played their NHL hockey in modern times.........you seem to be under-estimating Smith and McSorely both of whom were on multiple Stanley Cup winning teams with those high flying dmonton Oilers.....heck even THEY realized you need some muckers and pluggers on your hockey team to help you win Championships...PLUS McSorely is my 7th d-man and will be seeing very little ice time.....if ANYTHING he will be my team's enforcer as a Forward on my 4th line for whenever the opportunity ever presented itself to me..........as long as you have a good solid core of FOUR defencemen like I do then that's all you really need.........look at the Montreal Canadiens of the 1970s......everybody keeps referring to them the BIG THREE of their blueline (Robinson, Savard and LaPointe)....well I have the Big Four on my club (Robinson, Chara, Wilson and Lutchenko)......my 4 top guys on the blueline would be playing 85-to-90% of the time and the #5 and #6 guys (Greschner and Smith) would see only 10-to-15% of the ice time........that's enough.........................Oh and as far as Malik goes I didn't select him for my hockey club...............my guys are big and they are also modern day NHLers who play in an ERA with the best and FASTEST skaters of alltime........this doesn't seem to be hampering their game at all IMO......my BIG players may lack some speed but they more than make-up for it with their GREAT POSITIONAL PLAY.

Cheers!

monkey_00* is offline  
Old
03-06-2005, 03:28 PM
  #823
Frightened Inmate #2
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Calgary
Posts: 4,385
vCash: 500
Ha Smith McSorley and to a lesser extent Ron Greschner were not great defensemen. Chara has only recently come into his own, and really for the better part of the previous decade saying he was a liability would be a compliment. Wilson was a solid offensive defenseman, but really was never really an all time great defenseman. I really don't know much about Lutchenko but from what I have read he wasn't anywhere near a #1 defenseman. Really your only great defeseman is Robinson.

Frightened Inmate #2 is offline  
Old
03-06-2005, 03:34 PM
  #824
monkey_00*
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Country:
Posts: 5,022
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benton Fraser
For the last time I don't care if you selected Tikhonov, you know what it really didn't factor into my decision when I ranked the teams. It seems as though you are the only person who is defending your team anyways, and most everyone else who is ranking the teams has taken the position that your team is not one of the elite teams in the draft, especially on defense, which is big, but lacks natural tallent - in a defensive or an offensive way.
Sure you don't ....................and I know that alot of the guys were seriously thinking of drafting him cause right when I drafted tikhonov the only coach who had been selected upto that point was Scotty Bowman.....BUT as soon as I selected Tikhonov to be my coach what happened next?.........half of the guys in our draft went on to select a coach for their very next pick.....I guess they thought it was a goot time as ever to draft their head coach since probably the two best (Bowman and Tikkhonov) were already selected in the draft at that point.........I'm defending my team and rightfully so simply because you've really under-estimated them and didn't even consider many other areas like past Stanley Cup performances, specialty teams, overall team toughness and leadership.........

My Defencemen are big yes but they have natural talent.........How many times did Robinson win the Norris trophy?.......even won the Conn Smythe......Chara was runner-up last season and who wouldn't want to have him play on their team........Lutchenko was talented...I'm sure he's a guy that you would have drafted for your hockey club....one interesting point regarding Lutchenko that you're probably not aware is everytime this guy was on the ice back in 1972 Summit Series against Team Canada the Canadians only scored 1-goal against the Russians....all other times he helped keep them off the scoresheet........Doug Wilson's bread and butter was the powerplay and he possessed one of the best slapshots from the point in NHL history.........so there's my 4 top guys right there.......that's enough...........

.................again you wanted Viktor Tikhonov to be your coach...........you also wanted Alexander Yakushev and Vladimir Lutchenko to play on your teams and they're on mine.........this is why you rank my team as low as you did.......oh ya....you also wanted Pavel Bure......he's on my team too.

monkey_00* is offline  
Old
03-06-2005, 03:38 PM
  #825
monkey_00*
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Country:
Posts: 5,022
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benton Fraser
Ha Smith McSorley and to a lesser extent Ron Greschner were not great defensemen. Chara has only recently come into his own, and really for the better part of the previous decade saying he was a liability would be a compliment. Wilson was a solid offensive defenseman, but really was never really an all time great defenseman. I really don't know much about Lutchenko but from what I have read he wasn't anywhere near a #1 defenseman. Really your only great defeseman is Robinson.
You don't know much about Lutchenko eh......figures...........I also don't see you mentioning one thing about Doug Wilson either......and yet you ranked my team as low as you did?........heh heh heh..........oh well.............How old are you anyways?.........did you ever see Doug Wilson play hockey?..........How many other guys in our draft do you not know anything about?

monkey_00* is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:06 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2017 All Rights Reserved.