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Van Edm Trade

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Old
08-19-2009, 05:08 AM
  #51
jimmybonzai
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheatking View Post
Oilers
Goals For 5 on 5: 152
Goals Against 5 on 5: 150
Team +/-: +2
Gilbert: +6

Canucks
Goals For 5 on 5: 153
Goals Against 5 on 5: 126
Team +/-: +27
Mitchell: +29

Again, Mitchell's stats are very impressive but it's also a team stat and proportional to the team he was playing on. A team that had better defensive players, a more defensive system, a Selke nominee and an elite goalie. Sure Mitchell was a big part in the cause but I bet Gilbert finishes the season a lot better than +6 if he played for the Canucks.

...and I don't understand why the ability to put up 45 points is being so underrated. 19 defenseman hit that 45 points. 38 forwards scored 30+ goals last season. 25 forwards had 75+ points.
Conversely why is a guy that is a pretty effective shutdown dman that routinely goes against the other teams top lines being underated?

I don't think anyone should overlook his production - trying to compare Mitchell and Gilbert is an exercise in futility....apples and oranges.

You realise it was a flames fan who began this comparison....pretty nice stir job there


Last edited by jimmybonzai: 08-19-2009 at 05:18 AM.
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Old
08-19-2009, 10:18 AM
  #52
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this doesn't fill the obvious void's in edmonton. not to take anything away from bernier and raymond.. we just dont need guys like that, right away.

also, edmonton is pretty darn close to 50 contracts if im not mistaken... i'm not sure if they are even allowed to pull this off.

can a team have more than 50 contracts during the off season as long as they get under 50 before the season starts? i know they can be over the cap by a certain percentage during the off season.

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Old
08-19-2009, 10:47 AM
  #53
Oilfan2
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Originally Posted by pork chop sandwiches View Post
this doesn't fill the obvious void's in edmonton. not to take anything away from bernier and raymond.. we just dont need guys like that, right away.

also, edmonton is pretty darn close to 50 contracts if im not mistaken... i'm not sure if they are even allowed to pull this off.

can a team have more than 50 contracts during the off season as long as they get under 50 before the season starts? i know they can be over the cap by a certain percentage during the off season.
As far as I know, a team cannot have more than 50 contracts, no matter what but I could stand corrected.
As for the Oilers, I believe they're at 45 or less so, for a change, that shouldn't be a problem.

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08-19-2009, 11:04 AM
  #54
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This trade leaves us softer than the Oilers and the Canadiens.

Why would Vancouver trade away its only physical forward?

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08-19-2009, 11:22 AM
  #55
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I'm not even commenting on a trade for Gilbert but I am curious about something:

The Oilers have one of the best Def. units in the league....
There forwards are so good and so deep that Raymond and Bernier would be useless to them...
Duane Roloson was their MVP.....

Sooo... What's the problem??? I mean they've been consistently mediocre for years (other than a couple 20 game stretches)
Something doesn't add up here.

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Old
08-19-2009, 11:39 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Dufresne View Post
I'm not even commenting on a trade for Gilbert but I am curious about something:

The Oilers have one of the best Def. units in the league....
There forwards are so good and so deep that Raymond and Bernier would be useless to them...
Duane Roloson was their MVP.....

Sooo... What's the problem??? I mean they've been consistently mediocre for years (other than a couple 20 game stretches)
Something doesn't add up here.

The Oilers are missing a top line. They have given awful contracts that have handcuffed the team.

In terms of 2-3 line depth they probably have more than just about any team, which is why Raymond and Bernier are useless to them.

Also, although Gilbert is a solid young defenceman, Willie Mitchell is clearly the more valuable guy right now.

However, for Canucks fans dismissing Gilbert, he is exactly what you need. A young puck moving defenceman. After Edler and Bieska's numbers come back down to Earth this year, you will be begging for a guy like Gilbert.

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08-19-2009, 11:57 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by oilfan22 View Post
As far as I know, a team cannot have more than 50 contracts, no matter what but I could stand corrected.
As for the Oilers, I believe they're at 45 or less so, for a change, that shouldn't be a problem.
Oilers have 46 contracts, 47 when they sign RFA Schremp.
However, Eberle and Rajala's contracts won't count unless they play more than 11 NHL games this season, which seems unlikely (though Eberle might just get regular duty this season).
In real terms, the Oilers have 45 contracts and room for 5 more.


Last edited by Steveorama: 08-19-2009 at 12:03 PM.
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Old
08-19-2009, 11:58 AM
  #58
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The trade doesn't really work for either team. In order for Vancouver to get a 40 point dman that can move the puck they'll have to give at least one good asset. 2 23/24 year old players who have not broken thru yet and a draft pick is not going to cut it. I understand Vancouver would not want to give up the good asset it would cost to get an offensive Dman, and thats fair.

If/When Gillis trades for a dman, it'll be a small deal. It'll be a young Dman who the Canucks believe can break thru. I'm not sure who that Dman is or if there's a Dman out there like that available, but thats whats likely to happen. They are fine with Salo, Edler, Bieksa and Mitchell as their top 4 with SOB as #5. Unfortunately Salo will miss about 20 games and they need to expect that. They need a young guy who can potentially have a good season similiar to how SOB developed last year, except the guy they get this year should develop offensively. SOB improved quite a bit as the season wore on. If he could just stop taking stupid penalties he'd be a much better Dman.

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Old
08-19-2009, 12:00 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Dufresne View Post
I'm not even commenting on a trade for Gilbert but I am curious about something:

The Oilers have one of the best Def. units in the league....
There forwards are so good and so deep that Raymond and Bernier would be useless to them...
Duane Roloson was their MVP.....

Sooo... What's the problem??? I mean they've been consistently mediocre for years (other than a couple 20 game stretches)
Something doesn't add up here.
On paper the Oilers have a pretty good team and 5 on 5 last season they were pretty good. Definitely good enough to be a playoff team. It was special teams. The PP was 22nd in the league and the PK was 27th. I don't know if it was the system MacT put in place(I'm hoping it's this one) or if it was as simple as the players just not meshing but either way it was ugly.

Another thing that gets over looked is the fact that the Oilers played with next to no heart down the stretch. Just based on what I saw and the way players word their answers when asked about MacT, it really sounds like they quit on the coach. I know it's really sad that a pack of professionals that have become millionaires by playing a game could do that but it seems like it to me.

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Old
08-19-2009, 12:03 PM
  #60
blankall
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Originally Posted by Wheatking View Post
On paper the Oilers have a pretty good team
Really? What was their goalie situation like last year? Who was on their starting line?

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Old
08-19-2009, 12:11 PM
  #61
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EDM/ MTL deal

MTL

Plekanec, Hamrlik, Laraque, 2nd Round Pick

for

EDM

Penner, Visnovski, Jacques


I like this deal because it gives both teams what the want. Edm would get the scoring player they need to center a line to play with hemsky and what better as a fellow country man of czech to play with the czech hemsky. Chemistry must be there, since they would of played together in the world cup this past spring. That was a main problem with Edmonton down the stretch needing cluctch scoring in close 3rd period games. They had the grit, not a problem with Horcoff, Moreau, Stortini, Reddox. They would now add Laraque back into that role and use him alot more than Montreal would since they got Moen this offseason. Laraque could go back to his great physical play back when he was Edmonton before. Edmonton had good scoring from the first line. But with this deal they would get a solid first line and a second line that would have the likes of:

O'Sullivan Horcoff Moreau
Cogliano Plekanec Hemsky
Nilsson Gagner Pisani
Laraque Pouliot Stortini/ Brule/ Reddox

Defense, Edmonton has been talking about moving out one of their Dman because they all play the same style. Visnovski out and Hamrlik in brings them a physical Defenseman who can put up 30 or more points a season. Has 2 years left which is good to work around for a core. With scoring from Souray, Gilbert, and Grebishkov. They would have 3 scoring Dman and 3 Physical with Staios, Hamrlik, and Smid. Hamrlik like I said would fall into both categories of Physical and can score goals and make points. The defense would round out like this:

Souray Gilbert
Hamrlik Grebishkov
Smid Staios/ Strudwick

Montreal in this deal would get Penner who can play center and put him in the 2nd line slot at C. Jacques is a player that can be brought in to play 4th line minutes but, could possibly see alot of time in the AHL. Penner will bring them the size the needed for center for second line. Their offense will look something like this:

Pacioretty Gomez Gionta
A.Kostitsyn Penner Cammalleri
Moen Lapierre Latendresse
Stewart Chipchura D'Agostini/ Metro/ S.Kostitsyn/ Jacques

Their Defense with bringing in Vishnovski who is often hurt alot, but replacing him over Hamrlik would be alright Same amount of points, I do know that Vishnovski only played 50 games last year as well. Montreal's D would look like this:

Markov Spacek
Vishnovski Mara
Gill Gorges/ Weber/ Subban/ O'byrne

I think this deal will help both teams Montreal gets grit they need and a 2nd line center. Edmonton gets a scoring second line center to play with hemsky and what better than a fellow country man and round out 2 first solid lines. As well as giving them girt with them bringing back Laraque. D would be fixed up for both sides and both teams looking for that they want. On the point. Montreal puck mover, Edmonton Physical scoring D man.

This deal will free up $625 000 for Edmonton and move them up from the 1.1 mill remaing for their team too 1.735 mill, and help them considering the cap supposely for next year will go down. With Plek also at 1 year it could help them financially but I believe him and Hemsky will gel fine together.

At the end of this too Edmonton gets a 2nd round draft to look at getting to fill out their roster for the future.


Last edited by BigHabs: 08-19-2009 at 12:12 PM. Reason: add more info
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Old
08-19-2009, 12:13 PM
  #62
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the minute you see a Canuck-Oilers proposal, you can automatically conclude it would never happen, regardless of how fair the trade is or how much it could help both teams.

the entire management team in Edmonton hates Gillis... they have publicly insulted him making it clear that there would be no deals involved between these clubs. Lowe holds grudges, and Tambellini did not leave on good terms. So again, just making a proposal between these clubs just isn't ever going to happen!

as far as the trade itself, the Canucks, IMO, can't afford to give up Bernier... he is the most physical forward on the team... the only forward in the top 9 that hits consistently, and the only one besides Burrows and Kesler, in the entire top 9, that bring any level of grit and sandpaper to the team... in the pipeline you have a lot of similar players - Grabner, Shirokov, Rodin, Schroeder, Hodgson, etc... all of them still are missing that grit element that the Canucks simply don't have enough of.

This is why you won't see Bernier moved IMO.

but regardless of the deal, Edmonton and Vancouver won't be making any trades with each other before you see a change in team management first.

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08-19-2009, 12:16 PM
  #63
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Really? What was their goalie situation like last year? Who was on their starting line?
I don't really know what you mean by "starting line" and I don't know what last season's goalie situation has to do with next season when we have a new #1 goalie.

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Old
08-19-2009, 12:16 PM
  #64
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Not that an interdivision trade would happen but why are some people saying Bernier wouldn't interest the Oilers? The Oilers need to get bigger and more physical up front and Bernier provides that. Bernier brings an extremely consistent physical game.

I'm still surprised the Oilers haven't moved one of their dmen for some size and scoring up front. I don't think Sheldon Souray finishes next season in Edmonton.

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08-19-2009, 12:54 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gamblor506 View Post
MTL

Plekanec, Hamrlik, Laraque, 2nd Round Pick

for

EDM

Penner, Visnovski, Jacques


I like this deal because it gives both teams what the want. Edm would get the scoring player they need to center a line to play with hemsky and what better as a fellow country man of czech to play with the czech hemsky. Chemistry must be there, since they would of played together in the world cup this past spring. That was a main problem with Edmonton down the stretch needing cluctch scoring in close 3rd period games. They had the grit, not a problem with Horcoff, Moreau, Stortini, Reddox. They would now add Laraque back into that role and use him alot more than Montreal would since they got Moen this offseason. Laraque could go back to his great physical play back when he was Edmonton before. Edmonton had good scoring from the first line. But with this deal they would get a solid first line and a second line that would have the likes of:

O'Sullivan Horcoff Moreau
Cogliano Plekanec Hemsky
Nilsson Gagner Pisani
Laraque Pouliot Stortini/ Brule/ Reddox

Defense, Edmonton has been talking about moving out one of their Dman because they all play the same style. Visnovski out and Hamrlik in brings them a physical Defenseman who can put up 30 or more points a season. Has 2 years left which is good to work around for a core. With scoring from Souray, Gilbert, and Grebishkov. They would have 3 scoring Dman and 3 Physical with Staios, Hamrlik, and Smid. Hamrlik like I said would fall into both categories of Physical and can score goals and make points. The defense would round out like this:

Souray Gilbert
Hamrlik Grebishkov
Smid Staios/ Strudwick

Montreal in this deal would get Penner who can play center and put him in the 2nd line slot at C. Jacques is a player that can be brought in to play 4th line minutes but, could possibly see alot of time in the AHL. Penner will bring them the size the needed for center for second line. Their offense will look something like this:

Pacioretty Gomez Gionta
A.Kostitsyn Penner Cammalleri
Moen Lapierre Latendresse
Stewart Chipchura D'Agostini/ Metro/ S.Kostitsyn/ Jacques

Their Defense with bringing in Vishnovski who is often hurt alot, but replacing him over Hamrlik would be alright Same amount of points, I do know that Vishnovski only played 50 games last year as well. Montreal's D would look like this:

Markov Spacek
Vishnovski Mara
Gill Gorges/ Weber/ Subban/ O'byrne

I think this deal will help both teams Montreal gets grit they need and a 2nd line center. Edmonton gets a scoring second line center to play with hemsky and what better than a fellow country man and round out 2 first solid lines. As well as giving them girt with them bringing back Laraque. D would be fixed up for both sides and both teams looking for that they want. On the point. Montreal puck mover, Edmonton Physical scoring D man.

This deal will free up $625 000 for Edmonton and move them up from the 1.1 mill remaing for their team too 1.735 mill, and help them considering the cap supposely for next year will go down. With Plek also at 1 year it could help them financially but I believe him and Hemsky will gel fine together.

At the end of this too Edmonton gets a 2nd round draft to look at getting to fill out their roster for the future.
Terrible for the Oilers. Hamrlik and Laraque are useless and cost too much, and we dont need Plekanec.

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Old
08-19-2009, 01:15 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Wheatking View Post
I don't really know what you mean by "starting line" and I don't know what last season's goalie situation has to do with next season when we have a new #1 goalie.
I was referring to your top forward line.

As for the goalie thing, your post was in reference to last year, so my response was also in refernce to last year.

So who is on your top forward line that looks good on paper?

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08-19-2009, 01:24 PM
  #67
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Brutal comparison when player A is a shutdown dman.....was this a response to the +/- stats for Mitchell posted above??
You got it.

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Old
08-19-2009, 01:36 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Not that an interdivision trade would happen but why are some people saying Bernier wouldn't interest the Oilers? The Oilers need to get bigger and more physical up front and Bernier provides that. Bernier brings an extremely consistent physical game.

I'm still surprised the Oilers haven't moved one of their dmen for some size and scoring up front. I don't think Sheldon Souray finishes next season in Edmonton.

The Oilers need top line forwards. Bernier thus far is a third line forward, with the potetial to be a second line guy. The Oilers have an entire team of that.

I also wouldn't describe the Oilers as the smallest team out there either. They have plenty of forwards with size: Moreau, Penner, Horcroff, Stortni, Pisani, etc.. are all 200+ pounds. Each one does what Bernier does, only better.

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08-19-2009, 01:48 PM
  #69
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I was referring to your top forward line.

As for the goalie thing, your post was in reference to last year, so my response was also in refernce to last year.

So who is on your top forward line that looks good on paper?
Well I think it's kind of irrelevant but last season Roloson was 15th in wins and 17th in Save%. The goaltending was fine.

As for the top line, it's Penner, Horcoff and Hemsky. I don't know why we have to single out that line to prove the team is good on paper. At even strength the team as a whole was pretty good. The Oilers scored 16 more ES goals than the Sharks but the Sharks also scored 27 more powerplay goals than the Oilers. Like I said before, it was the special teams that failed.

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08-19-2009, 01:56 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Wheatking View Post
Well I think it's kind of irrelevant but last season Roloson was 15th in wins and 17th in Save%. The goaltending was fine.

As for the top line, it's Penner, Horcoff and Hemsky. I don't know why we have to single out that line to prove the team is good on paper. At even strength the team as a whole was pretty good. The Oilers scored 16 more ES goals than the Sharks but the Sharks also scored 27 more powerplay goals than the Oilers. Like I said before, it was the special teams that failed.
A top line is kind of an important part of a hockey team? Don't you think? There is a reason teams are willing to pay 20+ million for a good one.

A weak top line is often the cause of weak PP. The top line is what gets most of the PP time. If that line is not producing neither will your PP.

Trust me, that top line does not look "good on paper".

The Oilers have great secondary scoring depth, but until they fix the problems with that top group, don't expect them to get anywhere.

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08-19-2009, 01:59 PM
  #71
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The Oilers arent trading Visnovsky unless they can get a 30+ goal player.
That habs trade would be useless cause...
Visnovsky> Hamrlik Larauqe
Penner > Plekanec
Jauques < 2nd
Why in hell would the oilers do this trade unless they are trying to make their team much worse terible trade proposal

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08-19-2009, 02:06 PM
  #72
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A top line is kind of an important part of a hockey team? Don't you think? There is a reason teams are willing to pay 20+ million for a good one.

A weak top line is often the cause of weak PP. The top line is what gets most of the PP time. If that line is not producing neither will your PP.

Trust me, that top line does not look "good on paper".

The Oilers have great secondary scoring depth, but until they fix the problems with that top group, don't expect them to get anywhere.
So to you it doesn't matter that the Oilers have secondary scoring, a very good defense and a goalie that was arguably top 10 last season? Because the top line is not to great after Hemsky, the team as a whole is going no where. You may be right. I'm not predicting the Oilers make the playoffs but the top line is far from my top reason. I need to see the new system. They just about made the playoffs last season. If they get a decent powerplay and the PK improves even by a little I think they can sneak into 8th.

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08-19-2009, 02:06 PM
  #73
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Man, Oiler-Canuck threads really are painful to read.

First of all, there is no way an interdivision trade would take place between these two teams that isn't a (more or less) 1 for 1 deal. There will be no quality player for quantity trades, even if one team is looking to contend and the other is "rebuilding".

Second of all, Edmonton gets players they already have a whole lot of. They need to trade players like Gilbert in addition to some of those assets to get what they really need.

Gilbert would be a very nice addition to the Canucks blue-line, he would probably be the Canucks 5th defenseman this year, as I don't believe he is as good as his closest Canuck comparable in Kevin Bieksa and he (when everyone is healthy) is our #3, and most expect Edler to be our unanimous #1 next year. He would be in that position only in name though, with the role he provides, he would get plenty of ice-time (not to mention Canucks injury problems). Although having our 5th defenseman making the most money normally wouldn't be a good idea, but he would be a suitable replacement for Salo when his contract is up. Would love to have him, just won't happen though.

The Canucks also are not trading Steve Bernier. He brings a very important element to the third line and is our most consistantly physical player. He does a lot of good for our third line and makes so much room for players like Wellwood, Raymond, and hopefully Hodgson. He also just signed a new contract for less than he was making previously and agreed to go on a fitness plan over the summer and by all accounts he looks great. He also has the potential to be at least a 25-25 guy which with his size is very valuable in the NHL. He will not be traded unless the Canucks are getting a very good player back and he is an irreplacable piece.

Value isn't far off, or wouldn't be to a team in need of Raymond/Bernier players but being an inder-division trade it just won't work. If the Canucks are getting a puck mover it will probably be from the east.

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Old
08-19-2009, 02:13 PM
  #74
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Gilbert to Edmonton = Edler to Vancouver.

Edmonton says no thank you.

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08-19-2009, 02:43 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Wheatking View Post
Well I think it's kind of irrelevant but last season Roloson was 15th in wins and 17th in Save%. The goaltending was fine.

As for the top line, it's Penner, Horcoff and Hemsky. I don't know why we have to single out that line to prove the team is good on paper. At even strength the team as a whole was pretty good. The Oilers scored 16 more ES goals than the Sharks but the Sharks also scored 27 more powerplay goals than the Oilers. Like I said before, it was the special teams that failed.

The top line is pretty important. They are more or less expected to get 220 points between them to be considered any good.

Do the math. How many extra points does your "depth" have to get to make up for that. A team needs a well fucntioning first line or at the very least two decent 1A/1B lines. The Oilers with one player over 60 points nad one player over 20 goals, have neither.

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