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The Lisin Debate

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Old
08-19-2009, 11:55 AM
  #51
FutureGM97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbop View Post
OK, I have Coyote season tickets so that should qualify me as a first hand source.

Lisin has a chance to be a special player. He may be the fastest player in the league. No kidding. He is every bit as fast as Gaborik. He has a good shot, goes to the net and has very good offensive instincts. What impressed me more than anything last year was how many battles for the puck he won in the offensive zone. I sit in the end where the Coyotes attack twice. Often I see the battle along the wall before I can identify the player. I was amazed how many times it was Lisin who came away with the puck.

When he was traded to the Rangers, my wife (who is a social hockey fan) said "isn't he the guy you are always raving about"?

As promising as he was offensively, he was completely disengaged at the other end of the ice. He doesn't go back deep or show the same work ethic. He is always looking to be the first person out of the zone. Gretzky certainly isn't the greatest tactical coach in hockey but he knows enough about the game to have Lisin drive him crazy. Pardon the stereotype but he looks like a lot of young Russian forwards. And some nights, the coaching staff felt he didn't show up at either end of the ice.

His draft stock dropped because of concerns about the transfer agreement. Sound familliar? Before the draft, he was thought to be a sure first round pick.

As I have said in other threads, I think the guy has a chance to be special. He has more upside than Korpikoski, Callahan or Dubinsky. If the light goes on and he can start putting a complete game together, he could be a consistent 30-40 goal scorer. And just as easily, he could be the second coming of Zherdev with a one way game and an annoying tendency to disappear on too many nights. The one thing I can tell you is that people with the Coyotes liked him, the appreciate that he has tried very hard to assimilate (when he came over he knew about 5 words of English) and he was generally thought of as a good kid. He should be more comfortable in a multicultural market like New York and if his game evolves, he can be special. Very special.
Spot on

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Old
08-19-2009, 12:01 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MSG the place to be View Post
Its completely different. Those guys went from being unknowns to being superstars. Lisin went from being a one-dimensional prospect and still remains a one dimensional prospect 5 years later. The fact that we didnt take a shot at him at the draft when people thought he had first round talent is worth noting since we had 2 first rounders and 2 second rounders before he got picked that year.

If management is so in love with this guy and is willing to throw him on one of the top lines, despite the fact that he is as much of a project in 2009 as he was in 2004, it makes no sense that we wouldnt have just drafted him. This makes me believe the contrary which is that we made an irrelevant trade and the organization doesnt expect Lisin will contribute significantly.
I'm not sure why you are having such a hard time understanding that while the figurehead (Sather) is the same, the regime that drafted Korpikoski and chose not to draft Lisin (Maloney) is no longer running the ship here. You're basically trying to say that we consciously gave Korpikoski away for nothing. The truth of it is that we sent Korpikoski back to the guy that loves him for a player that the people in charge here now have high hopes for. It's not complicated.

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Old
08-19-2009, 12:01 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
Nope, none of us can because training camp hasnt occurred yet. We are just throwing out our opinions of him considering only a handful of us have seen him play. I find it funny how everyone saying he should play in the AHL or the 4th line because they obviously havent seen him play and yet they are calling out everyone else.

I dont know who will be playing where and who will even be around when the season starts but if Lisin is on the 4th line or in the AHL I will be pretty pissed and that is because this guy has quite a bit of talent and deserves a shot.
On the wings, Gaborik, Prospal, Higgins, Callahan, Avery, and Kotalik.

Lisin will have to make a monumental impression in camp to unseat those wingers from the top 9. Talent, potential, and upside dont mean he should be coddled and handed a spot on the scoring lines.

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Old
08-19-2009, 12:07 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
On the wings, Gaborik, Prospal, Higgins, Callahan, Avery, and Kotalik.

Lisin will have to make a monumental impression in camp to unseat those wingers from the top 9. Talent, potential, and upside dont mean he should be coddled and handed a spot on the scoring lines.
You say that as if Higgins/Prospal/Kotalik/Gaborik should just be given those top 9 spots. They are in the same situation as Lisin is. None of those players have earned any kind of 'seat' in the Top 9. Sure, they are more than likely to have that spot because of their past, but nothing is certified until Training Camp ends.

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Old
08-19-2009, 12:08 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
On the wings, Gaborik, Prospal, Higgins, Callahan, Avery, and Kotalik.

Lisin will have to make a monumental impression in camp to unseat those wingers from the top 9. Talent, potential, and upside dont mean he should be coddled and handed a spot on the scoring lines.
No, I agree. But I guarentee if Lisin was a player who came up through the system like Callahan or Dubi he would have a spot immediately and if his spot was taken people would be up in arms around here.

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Old
08-19-2009, 12:12 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by NYRMatt View Post
You say that as if Higgins/Prospal/Kotalik/Gaborik should just be given those top 9 spots. They are in the same situation as Lisin is. None of those players have earned any kind of 'seat' in the Top 9. Sure, they are more than likely to have that spot because of their past, but nothing is certified until Training Camp ends.
All of those players are multiple 20 goal scorers in the NHL.

If their camps are on par with Lisin's who do you think will get the benefit of the doubt?

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Old
08-19-2009, 12:50 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by DubiSnacks17 View Post
IMO the fact that Prospal was signed (leaving no spots in the top 9 unless Dubinsky is traded/holds out or the unlikely event of AA starting the year in HFD) shows that they don't really see him as a top end player for this team.
Agreed, now we have a glut of wingers and someone is going to be the odd man out.

If Lisin is a top 9 player, Sather screwed up because now we have too many wingers who are capable of playing in the top 9, but placing these wingers on the 4th line would be below their skill level.

Granted, it will make camp more competitive and I'm sure Torts will have some tough decisions to make. There's nothing we can do about it now except wait...

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Old
08-19-2009, 12:52 PM
  #58
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Better to think you have too much than to know you have too little.

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Old
08-19-2009, 12:57 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Ian View Post
Better to think you have too much than to know you have too little.
Thats the major difference between this season and last season.

Today, we apparently have too many forwards capable of fulfilling top 9 spots. Last season, we were reaching up and down the lineup.

Depth is a good problem to have. The best way to approach it as a fan is to not play favorites and trust that the coaching staff makes the right personnel decisions.

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Old
08-19-2009, 02:22 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Even though I completely disagree with the notions above that Lisin deserves to simply be handed top 6 minutes on this team, Ill play along.

Whose going to be demoted in order to promote Lisin to the top 6? Noone can answer that question because there is no answer.
Sean Avery, apparently.

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Old
08-19-2009, 02:25 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
No, I agree. But I guarentee if Lisin was a player who came up through the system like Callahan or Dubi he would have a spot immediately and if his spot was taken people would be up in arms around here.
yea if it was Korpikoski still people would be snapping saying he needs top 3 line icetime.......I think Lisin will get his time. IF he scores goals they will have to play him.

I still think Avery just starts on the 4th line and in the PK rotation and gets bumped up from time to time in a game depending on the situation. He is a better defender than Lisin so last 10 minutes if they are leading he is in that spot

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Old
08-19-2009, 02:31 PM
  #62
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Just my two cents on the Lisin "debate". The only reason we are discussing this is because Prospal fell into the Rangers' lap. The Rangers acquired Lisin about 3 weeks before Prospal got bought out. As evidenced by giving him a 1 way-deal, I felt that management felt his upside was good enough to make a 3rd line spot his to lose in camp, until Prospal got signed Sunday. 13 goals in 48 games on Phoenix isn't anything to balk at, and he (if he does happen to get top 9 minutes) is now playing in a higher attack system, with more talented forwards. We'll see how it goes, but Sather did the smart thing and got the sure depth in Prospal, instead of banking on Lisin on the 3rd line.

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Old
08-19-2009, 03:35 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
No, it's not plausible because I believe he signed a 1-way contract so if he is down, he would have to go through waivers and undoubtedly would be picked up for free. The guy is still maturing like any other 23 y/o but he has great speed and a pretty good shot that he can get off while on the move.
His one way contract has no bearing on his waiver status only his salary.

Edit: I think at 23 he's surpassed the games limit for being waiver exempt. I believe it's 60 games played for 23 year olds. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

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Old
08-19-2009, 03:45 PM
  #64
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Picking up Lisin was inspired afaik. Would have been ice if were not for Korpedo though. I'd love to have a team of speedy forward creating 60 minutes of mayhem. IMO Lisin is wasted on the 4th line. Heck, he'd be wasted on the 3rd line given what he brings to the table, but thanks to the Mongolian fustercluck personnel management we have too many forward and no centers. I understand that with Torts style of play and the Olympic schedule a lot of bodies will keep the team fresh, but man...

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Old
08-19-2009, 03:50 PM
  #65
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Now that we have Prospal I'm pretty bummed we have Kotalik for 3 years.... Looks like Lisin won't see any top 3 line opportunity unless we see a forward go down to injury...

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Old
08-19-2009, 04:10 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian View Post
Better to think you have too much than to know you have too little.
Exactly. I'd rather waste someone on the fourth line and have them chip in 10 goals rather than 15 (as an example) then count on Aaron Voros to play important minutes all year. Everyone is making such a huge deal of who will play where, but how many games last year did we have the same lines? Everyone will get their chance, be it due to injury (and let's hope that won't be the case) or worthiness. When Fedorov scored to end the season last year, it honestly felt worse than when Hossa scored in OT to end it the year before, as much of a punch to the stomach as that was. When Fedorov scored, I didn't want to give up but every bit of me knew that there was no way this team was going to be able to score in 5 minutes, on a rookie playing his like 10th career game no less and it was one of the most helpless feelings I've ever had about the Rangers. For better or worse, Sather has to get some credit for putting enough pieces together to at least return the hope of offense. No one was going to have this debate between Sjostrom and Voros getting limited time, but it cannot possibly hurt to have 10 guys who can play in the top 9 rather than what we had last year. If the worst thing about our season is that Enver Lisin can't showcase his talent because there are too many guys in front of him, then I'm sure we will all get over it because we will have a working offense. And if not, then we will have a backup plan and that too is important. Right now, I count 18 guys under contract who I could imagine playing forward in the NHL right now (I wouldn't necessarily want them all to but I know if we need them, they could): LW: Prospal, Higgins, Avery, Lisin, Byers, Grachev C: Dubinsky, Drury, Anisimov, Boyle, Arnason, Rissmiller RW: Gaborik, Callahan, Kotalik, Brashear, Voros, Parenteau.

Now look at that. Personally, I think Grachev would be good to go right now, but with the depth we can give him another year. We have enough depth that Rissmiller who has a bunch of NHL experience but we don't really like should never need to see the light of day. We have enough depth that PA Parenteau who has dominated the AHL for years and wanted his shot is still not going to get it. The players may not be perfect (and we all know they are not) but just because it isn't perfect does not mean it isn't MUCH MUCH better and for all the times I've criticized Glen, I have to afford him some credit for taking significant steps to revitalize what was truly a pitiful offense.

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Old
08-19-2009, 04:35 PM
  #67
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It's ironic that so many of the same people who wanted Zherdev gone because of his disappearing act, are the same ones who are raving about Lisin.

Zherdev, at only a year and a half older, has had numerous productive seasons, both in the NHL and Russia, relative to Lisin. Of course Zherdev's issue is that his production would cost $4M. But Lisin has never had a productive season at any level at all. His best production so far might be 2007-08 in the AHL, 16-19-35 in 58 games. (Or do you want to argue 21 points & -13 in 48 games in the NHL last year?) That's hardly worth raves.

I suspect the reason people are so high on Lisin, since most Ranger fans do not watch every Yote game, is that they've seen highlights of his goals. In them he looks like an absolute all-star. But the very fact that he possesses such talent is what is problematic. Why so little production from a player with such immense talent? The popular reply to that is to bash Gretzsky's coaching, but that doesn't explain Lisin's mediocre career at every level. The circumstances do seem to imply that he's a "floater." And although I agree that abysmal +/- ratings can be deceiving, they do collaborate the floater impression in the case of Lisin.

This doesn't mean that I'm closing the door on Lisin. If he "gets it" in camp, and produces up to his ability, there's no reason why he should be benched in favor of lesser players. I don't see why Higgins, Kotalik or Prospal should necessarily be guaranteed spots. If and when Lisin gets the opportunity, he needs to seize it. But until he shows that there's more to his game than the random highlight reel goal, in my book he remains a project.

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Old
08-19-2009, 04:37 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D713B View Post
His one way contract has no bearing on his waiver status only his salary.

Edit: I think at 23 he's surpassed the games limit for being waiver exempt. I believe it's 60 games played for 23 year olds. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
Correct. He's already played in 78 Games and is beyond 3 years from his first pro contract.

Given his exemption status, he's going to have to win a roster or reserve spot against some veteran competition, or his shot at seeing ice time with the Rangers is unlikely at best.

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Old
08-19-2009, 05:29 PM
  #69
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Despite the fact that we have 10 guys for the top 9, I firmly believe that Lisin is going to play at least 40 games this season.

We have 1 winger with known injury issues. 1 winger who missed 25 games last year. 1 winger who has played more than 70 games only 3 times in 7 season. 1 winger whose style of play will cause him to miss some time. 1 winger who might have a great alternate year and might have a year you might expect from a 34 yr old on the decline. 1 center coming off surgery. 1 center who hasn't yet stuck in an NHL lineup. Who did I leave out? Oh, Callahan and Dubinsky.

My point is simple. If Lisin is the odd man out on opening night, he's certainly going to be the first one in the lineup when someone is hurt or slumping. I'm not that worried about him getting playing time.

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Old
08-20-2009, 09:00 PM
  #70
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i havent seen lisin play in person but one time when he came to syracuse with san antonio. what i know of him is based upon speaking to people who have seen him play alot- i have some very close friends who are scouts and we talk alot about young players who are playing major junior and ahl- and my own personal research.

if lisin is given top 6 minutes, his skills will be used properly in an offensive role. if he gets some pp time, again, he will show his abilities to create scoring chances. if he gets his chance to show his stuff, i think hes exactly what this team needs.

when you look at higgins, dubi, cally, drury, kotalik, prospal and even avery they're all guys who are decent 2 way players and who really dont have 'get up out of your seat' skills. other than gaborik, there isnt anyone but him and perhaps now.... lisin.

his skating is elite. far better than dubi, cally and certainly arty.

he has filthy moves at top speed. again, better than all 3 above.

he has the ability to score goals all by himself. again, those 3 really havent shown that.

hes pure offense. he a little bit pavel bure and alot of nik zherdev.

he has good size. he has a solid work ethic inspite of him being labeled one dimensional..

he is not, to date, a 2 way player and has been too focused on offense.

however, ask any yotes fan and they will tell you he was used improperly by gretz and he really had no chance to show his stuff on a consistent basis when he was playing 4th line minutes with clowns. thats the rub, hes yet to be given the minutes with skill players to show what he can do.

lisin has jam. hes got 'it'. hes got that flair that we had when we had zherdev but didnt see enough of it. when he has the puck, he does things that make you go ...wow.

and when he scores hes excited. and he loves to score goals.

ill leave you with this, i spoke to a very good buddy of mine who watches a ton of ahl hockey all over the country. he works for the chicago wolves organization. he told me specifically that enver lisin has eye popping talent and if he is given the chance to play with skill, he can score 30 goals in the nhl. easy. and thats a direct verbatum quote.

and this guy knows his schidt.

i have no idea if lisin wil get his chance but i am confident that his skills are exactly what we need to play the uptempo, in your face attacking style torts likes to play.

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Old
08-20-2009, 11:54 PM
  #71
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I fell in love with Zherdev for his skill the moment we aquired him then watching him loaf around it got old. Although it is clear Lisin is not as skilled he undoubtedly has alot, and he seems to hustle(maybe he just has great speed) he just seems to play alot harder thatn Z. Btwn the skill and the effort it is easy for fans to jump on the Lisin bandwagon. I would like to see him work on his deffensive game at the AHL level because as much as I would love to see him flying around with Gabby, it just doesnt seem to work with everyone else.

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