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Old
08-19-2009, 12:10 PM
  #1
MorrisWanchuk
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team conditioning

It seems that Torts is talking a lot in interviews about how camp is going to be tough and the team are going to be in a lot better shape this season. But I remember in the Tom Renney era that MSG were forever showing us Blair Betts on the stationary bikes and saying how great the fitness staff were. So, is this just typical pre-season tittle-tattle or was there seriously a conditioning problem last year?

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08-19-2009, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MorrisWanchuk View Post
It seems that Torts is talking a lot in interviews about how camp is going to be tough and the team are going to be in a lot better shape this season. But I remember in the Tom Renney era that MSG were forever showing us Blair Betts on the stationary bikes and saying how great the fitness staff were. So, is this just typical pre-season tittle-tattle or was there seriously a conditioning problem last year?
Well the team did look pretty worn down in the 3rd periods playing under Torts' style, so I think there was.

Juding from interviews from the players in the offseason, all of them have pretty much said Torts has been sending out conditioning information and telling them to expect hell at camp.

So I think its a little more then pre-season tittle-tattle as you stated.

If the team isn't well conditioned, then his system will not work. As it was somewhat evident last season in the 3rd periods.

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08-19-2009, 12:25 PM
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Renney liked his teams well conditioned, but I'm wondering if they got "out of shape" playing a more conservative style most of the season.

Just speculation. Or Renney's version of well conditioned isn't anything like Tortorella's. One or the other

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08-19-2009, 12:26 PM
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i think they got out of shape when they gave up on Renney. They just kinda stopped playing hard mid way thru.

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08-19-2009, 12:31 PM
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You have to remember, last year the Rangers played a more aggressive style in the preseason and early on, than they did later in the year. They may have been in great shape to start, but trailed off significantly when Renney dialed down the pace. Once Torts took over towards the end of the year, the players probably weren't conditioned to play the forechecking style that Tortorella's system demands.

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08-19-2009, 12:33 PM
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Being well conditioned for a Renney style of play is much different than being well conditioned for a John Tortorella style of play.

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08-19-2009, 12:41 PM
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Sammy the Great
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Tom Renney era = country club.

Go watch a practice run by Ron Wilson, Torts, Julien, etc etc. You will see a fast paced, high tempo non stop practice. Renney's practices were never as fast paced or up tempo. Hence the lagging conditioning.

Were they well conditioned last year? In Renney's eyes, yes. Compared to the rest of the NHL? No.

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08-19-2009, 12:49 PM
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I don't think that's accurate at all...

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08-19-2009, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Sammy the Great View Post
Tom Renney era = country club.
...
Were they well conditioned last year? In Renney's eyes, yes. Compared to the rest of the NHL? No.
Absolute nonsense.

Just like when political commentators and dissenters throw around the word, "Nazi" inappropriately, "country club" should be equally used correctly, especially considering we are not that far away from the country club teams of the late 90s.

Tortorella is especially known for running extremely physically challenging camps, or as the nickname goes, "Torto-Hella", but the notion of Tom Renney turning a blind eye to conditioning is untrue.

The injury load, or lack thereof the last few seasons is a testament to the conditioning of recent Ranger teams. Renney and Reg Grant worked together in creating an offseason conditioning program.

Any drop in conditioning could perceivable in a few causes. The team gave up on Renney could contribute a small amount. Being later in the season also is known to put a significant wear on all players. It is a known practice in the NHL to focus on gameplay practices opposed to conditioning as the season progresses.

The extra skating and coaching philsophy change takes some time for players to adjust. The Rangers weren't perfectly conditioned for John Tortorella's vision, but the notion that they were under-conditioned compared to the rest of the NHL is a gross exaggeration.

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08-19-2009, 01:23 PM
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On being hired Tortorella made noises that some (Gomez, was one--he had some knee or groin problems for a while which may have played a part) weren't in great shape. Judging by the playoffs where we were pinned in our own end a disproportionate amount of time to the Capitals--one has to wonder whether it was the Caps obvious superior top end talent or our team just couldn't hack it any more--more likely a combination of the two. Judging by Tortorella's remarks he thinks the conditioning factor was a huge problem. He's talked about how the team was gassed just playing the one round and has wondered how they could have got through the semi's let alone the conference finals and the final Stanley Cup round. No matter your talent--the truth is if you can't run the marathon you have no chance of winning. So I expect this camp is going to be tough and the players are warned.

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08-19-2009, 01:26 PM
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Seeing Torts in Tampa, he plays a tough aggressive system. It will definitely be an adjustment for some players.

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08-19-2009, 01:27 PM
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HockeyBasedNYC
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Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
Renney liked his teams well conditioned, but I'm wondering if they got "out of shape" playing a more conservative style most of the season.

Just speculation. Or Renney's version of well conditioned isn't anything like Tortorella's. One or the other
I agree with this to a certain degree.

In a way its apples and oranges because both coaches employ vastly different systems.

It could be said that the Rangers were acclimated to Renneys system and practice habits and therefore were completely unprepared for Tortorellas theory of each. I was surprised when i first heard what Torts said about the conditioning not being up to par, because the Rangers have one of the best training facilities and staffs.

But it soon became clear why.

There really are different ways to approach conditioning for this sport in the offseason and I think Tortorella has his views on that and will demand that commitment to conditioning throughout the year, for the body and just as important - the mind. He thinks he inherited a "soft thinking" team.

I was one of the people who complained about Renney and what I thought was his "playing not to lose" approach to the game. I believe this is exactly what Tortorella has issue with. Not directly, but indirectly. I believe this approach gelled into the psyche of the team and bad habits formed. I maintained this view all season last year.

I also think Renney had every intention and plan to keep his teams conditioned well, but his standards might not have been nearly as high as Tortorella's. I think part of that has to do with the fact that even if Renney kept a standard as high as his, he doubted his own ability to enforce it in such an autocratic way - or didn't want to come off as that type of coach to the players willingly.

Tortorella could give a rats ass how he comes off to the players. He just wants the job done and at the highest possible level.


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08-19-2009, 01:37 PM
  #13
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I agree with this to a certain degree.

In a way its apples and oranges because both coaches employ vastly different systems.

It could be said that the Rangers were acclimated to Renneys system and practice habits and therefore were completely unprepared for Tortorellas theory of each. I was surprised when i first heard what Torts said about the conditioning not being up to par, because the Rangers have one of the best training facilities and staffs.

But it soon became clear why.

There really are different ways to approach conditioning for this sport in the offseason and I think Tortorella has his views on that and will demand that commitment to conditioning throughout the year, for the body and just as important - the mind. He thinks he inherited a "soft thinking" team.

I was one of the people who complained about Renney and what I thought was his "playing not to lose" approach to the game. I believe this is exactly what Tortorella has issue with. Not directly, but indirectly. I believe this approach gelled into the psyche of the team and bad habits formed. I maintained this view all season last year.

I also think Renney had every intention and plan to keep his teams conditioned well, but his standards might not have been nearly as high as Tortorella's. I think part of that has to do with the fact that even if Renney kept a standard as high as his, he doubted his own ability to enforce in such an autocratic way - or didn't want to come off as that type of coach to the players willingly.

Tortorella could give a rats ass how he comes off to the players. He just wants the job done and at the highest possible level.
Very good post. One thing for sure the Rangers weren't able to ramp up their game against the Caps in the playoffs. The difference between the two teams was telling. Lundqvist was literally on the verge of highway robbing the whole series. The thing though it is so very hard when you're on your heels all the time. That was another factor on why they were gassed.

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08-19-2009, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by HockeyBasedNYC View Post
I agree with this to a certain degree.

In a way its apples and oranges because both coaches employ vastly different systems.

It could be said that the Rangers were acclimated to Renneys system and practice habits and therefore were completely unprepared for Tortorellas theory of each. I was surprised when i first heard what Torts said about the conditioning not being up to par, because the Rangers have one of the best training facilities and staffs.

But it soon became clear why.

There really are different ways to approach conditioning for this sport in the offseason and I think Tortorella has his views on that and will demand that commitment to conditioning throughout the year, for the body and just as important - the mind. He thinks he inherited a "soft thinking" team.

I was one of the people who complained about Renney and what I thought was his "playing not to lose" approach to the game. I believe this is exactly what Tortorella has issue with. Not directly, but indirectly. I believe this approach gelled into the psyche of the team and bad habits formed. I maintained this view all season last year.

I also think Renney had every intention and plan to keep his teams conditioned well, but his standards might not have been nearly as high as Tortorella's. I think part of that has to do with the fact that even if Renney kept a standard as high as his, he doubted his own ability to enforce in such an autocratic way - or didn't want to come off as that type of coach to the players willingly.

Tortorella could give a rats ass how he comes off to the players. He just wants the job done and at the highest possible level.
"Hard" or "soft" thinking cannot be taught to a player by the time they reach the NHL. Their habits are by and large set by themselves and have been for quite some time. I would substitute the word "relentlessness" for thinking also to get a real representation of what is happening.

This constant trashing of Renney, now it's that he ran a country club and they were poorly conditioned, has become almost comical to read about. If this team doesn't improve over the past few seasons in on-ice results, I will be curious to hear the excuses from some that are vehemently pro-Torts and the trashing of him from the rest of the circling vultures.

Fans are fun to listen to. Many are horrible to watch in person but always fun to read or listen to.

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08-19-2009, 02:07 PM
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"Hard" or "soft" thinking cannot be taught to a player by the time they reach the NHL. Their habits are by and large set by themselves and have been for quite some time. I would substitute the word "relentlessness" for thinking also to get a real representation of what is happening.

This constant trashing of Renney, now it's that he ran a country club and they were poorly conditioned, has become almost comical to read about. If this team doesn't improve over the past few seasons in on-ice results, I will be curious to hear the excuses from some that are vehemently pro-Torts and the trashing of him from the rest of the circling vultures.

Fans are fun to listen to. Many are horrible to watch in person but always fun to read or listen to.
This is where i disagree. I think a coach makes a difference and its a large part of his job in motivating a team. Prospal and Tortorella is a perfect example.

Im not trashing Renney, im just pointing out what i think the differences are between the two...

I have no idea what you mean by that second part. Maybe you can enlighten me a little.

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08-19-2009, 02:11 PM
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Sammy the Great
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Absolute nonsense.

Just like when political commentators and dissenters throw around the word, "Nazi" inappropriately, "country club" should be equally used correctly, especially considering we are not that far away from the country club teams of the late 90s.

Tortorella is especially known for running extremely physically challenging camps, or as the nickname goes, "Torto-Hella", but the notion of Tom Renney turning a blind eye to conditioning is untrue.

The injury load, or lack thereof the last few seasons is a testament to the conditioning of recent Ranger teams. Renney and Reg Grant worked together in creating an offseason conditioning program.

Any drop in conditioning could perceivable in a few causes. The team gave up on Renney could contribute a small amount. Being later in the season also is known to put a significant wear on all players. It is a known practice in the NHL to focus on gameplay practices opposed to conditioning as the season progresses.

The extra skating and coaching philsophy change takes some time for players to adjust. The Rangers weren't perfectly conditioned for John Tortorella's vision, but the notion that they were under-conditioned compared to the rest of the NHL is a gross exaggeration.
Look at how many players each of the last few summers have stayed in NYC to work out under Reg Grant. Few, very, very few. That is because most players have their own summer strength coaches they use, though they work towards the testing outlined by the team. So, the summer program Renney & Mr. Grant create is not actually used, thus it cannot be cited as a reason for supreme conditioning. I won't get into what some players actually have to say about the NYR's conditioning staff.

In terms of drop of conditioning [when I use conditioning I am referring to game shape], this should only occur in two instances:
1. injury
2. numerous, consecutive scratches.

The latter player will do extra sprints as well know after practice and additional workouts to try to maintain game shape, but that is pretty hard to do when you are not actually playing games. Those with injuries will do the same (extra work) and eventually get back into game shape.

The players use the summer to get the "base" of their conditioning and through training camp, and first half or so of the season the coach will try to further/strengthen that base, so that as the season goes on, they can diminish practice time yet not lose much conditioning. That is done through high, high temp but shorter practices. 30-45 minutes.

So in short, yes, they were under-conditioned when compared to other teams. However, was it the coaching staff to blame or the players? A combo of both?

Personally, I think it was a by product of many things: the system used, the practices, and the approach (players coach) that Renney used.

All coaches have a shelf life. The players coach loses his steam when guys start to run the show, tune him out because they know they can w/out repercussions. Guy like Torts will lose his steam when the players tune him out because they are sick of him.

If you read the papers, Torts did make some allusions to issues that one sees in a country club atmosphere. Believe he cited, the players were taking limo's here and there etc, but now they needed to put their hands in their pockets and earn that stuff.

As one poster down line pointed out. The conditioning required for Renney's system is different than needed to effectively play w/ Torts system.

All that said, it is really is not even relevant anymore as this is a new season and Renney is no longer here.

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Old
08-19-2009, 02:12 PM
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All that said, it is really is not even relevant anymore as this is a new season and Renney is no longer here.
Yep.

Now, is there any topic that HASN"T been beaten to death this offseason?

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08-19-2009, 02:32 PM
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Yep.

Now, is there any topic that HASN"T been beaten to death this offseason?
As a matter of fact, yes. We haven't spoken enough about what outfits Avery wears when he goes clubbing.

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08-19-2009, 02:35 PM
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I have no idea what you mean by that second part. Maybe you can enlighten me a little.
I meant that I get a kick out of what fans say and write because we are all so opinionated and we all naturally think we are right.

The flip side is that I don't care all that much for quite a few "fans" that actually attend the games. Too many ignorant slobs who don't know the game, yelling out nonsense so they can try and get their equally stupid buddies to laugh.

Too many beer-fueled idiots looking to have a fight and to curse even if there is a 5 year-old girl seated right in front of them. Too many aholes in one spot. Makes it embarrassing at times to bring somene who isn't a regular.

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08-19-2009, 03:10 PM
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As a matter of fact, yes. We haven't spoken enough about what outfits Avery wears when he goes clubbing.
I smell a sasson comeback !

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_R2yHiPgsaj...ny+rangers.jpg

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08-19-2009, 03:19 PM
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I meant that I get a kick out of what fans say and write because we are all so opinionated and we all naturally think we are right.

The flip side is that I don't care all that much for quite a few "fans" that actually attend the games. Too many ignorant slobs who don't know the game, yelling out nonsense so they can try and get their equally stupid buddies to laugh.

Too many beer-fueled idiots looking to have a fight and to curse even if there is a 5 year-old girl seated right in front of them. Too many aholes in one spot. Makes it embarrassing at times to bring somene who isn't a regular.
I never think im right.

I hear you loud and clear. Agree on all counts.

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08-19-2009, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Sammy the Great View Post
Tom Renney era = country club.

Go watch a practice run by Ron Wilson, Torts, Julien, etc etc. You will see a fast paced, high tempo non stop practice. Renney's practices were never as fast paced or up tempo. Hence the lagging conditioning.

Were they well conditioned last year? In Renney's eyes, yes. Compared to the rest of the NHL? No.
As I understand it Renny's practices were more tactical in line with his defense first philosophy. If the players got out of shape as the season wore on shame on them. They are paid to be pros.

There is a reason we suffered the least number of games lost to injuries during the Renny years. A badly conditioned team would suffer from injuries. Watch how we go down like flies under Torts balls-to-the-Wall style and the Olympics. But as someone mentioned, they may have been out of shape to play the style of a coach brought on with 21 games to go in the season to take over a team that supposedly "quit on its coach." Says more about the players than the coach, IMO.

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08-19-2009, 04:41 PM
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As I understand it Renny's practices were more tactical in line with his defense first philosophy. If the players got out of shape as the season wore on shame on them. They are paid to be pros.

There is a reason we suffered the least number of games lost to injuries during the Renny years. A badly conditioned team would suffer from injuries. Watch how we go down like flies under Torts balls-to-the-Wall style and the Olympics. But as someone mentioned, they may have been out of shape to play the style of a coach brought on with 21 games to go in the season to take over a team that supposedly "quit on its coach." Says more about the players than the coach, IMO.
On another note, how many games did we lose last season where we outworked the other team and still lost? I can't think of many.

Rangers did not have a reputation as the hard working team we saw the first 10 games of the season... We let other teams take the game to us and I remember many losses where we simply got outworked...

I think Tortorella is trying to avoid that. He's going to mandate that we be a hard-working team game in and game out, and will enforce that mandate by benching players who fail to show up....

I have no problem with this team losing games because of bad calls or bad bounces or bad luck, but I get real frustrated when another team clearly out hustles, out battles, and out works us.

The Islanders under Ted Nolan were a hard-working team, they just didn't have the skill level to compete with most teams in the league... I would love to see a similar hard-working Rangers squad...

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08-19-2009, 05:12 PM
  #24
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I am anxiously waiting for that first day of camp where Torts says you can tell from one practice who worked out, and who didn't.

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08-20-2009, 12:15 AM
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2nd line center? - $7 million dollars

2nd pair D-man? - $6 million dollars

Coach who can instantly turn players into rabid, goal-scoring, forechecking wolves with a glance? - Priceless.

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