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Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XIV: The Wrath of Baum

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Old
08-22-2009, 03:32 PM
  #76
poetryingasoline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy_Ike View Post
Let's get this straight right now - Bettman is as strong now as he has ever been. He has won fight after fight after fight for the owners. Even now, he has taken someone who thought he had a slam dunk loophole in the courts and taken him to task. He is successfully defending the rights of leagues to maintain their control over who owns their teams. The mouthbreathing "average fan" with their cro-magnon "buttman hates canada" warchant is not who he works for. The people he works for just voted unanimously in his favor. His peers are standing side by side with his position in court. Where, in all of that, do you see "he's getting canned, no doubt"?

I do not have the information in front of me nor do I have the time to look through all of the articles and documents pertaining to the vote.

My gut feeling on votes like this are shown to be "unanimous" but in all actuality there was probably some dissent amongst the BoG and ownership that stays in the back room and is not aired publicly. This is found throughout Canadian politics where the leader of a political party cannot do no wrong. Even when Cabinet is called into meetings, they are allowed to air their feelings behind closed doors, but outside they have a united front.

Remember, the NHL had this united front during the most recent lockout, and I suspect that a few teams would have sooner lived without a salary cap at that time.

As for Bettman getting canned, I am certain it will happen. The reasons for this are stated in my previous comment

"While I am not fully disagreeing with you (Mulder), GB has had far more costly misfires such as the sunbelt strategy, the selling/mess of Nashville Predators and the American t.v. contract(s). When compared to his successes (the expansions into Columbus were his greatest unquestioned successes) the mistakes are far more costly and there is only so much loss that the owners will put up with..."


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Originally Posted by Crazy_Ike View Post
This demonstrates you have no idea why the league is fighting it the way they are. You have about thirteen thousand posts worth of reading to do on this board.
you know, I think I will leave that up to you.



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Originally Posted by Crazy_Ike View Post
There hasn't been a single question as to the viability of expansion into southern Ontario and the league had a pretty darn GOOD answer to why Balsillie shouldn't own a team.

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/NHL...457096-ap.html

"Baum said the league must produce any NHL study of expansion into the Hamilton market in the past 10 years, and it must disclose all expansion and relocation fees it has charged since 1999."

http://www.nationalpost.com/sports/s...tml?id=1890367

"PSE Sports & Entertainment, the company Canadian billionaire Jim Balsillie formed to pursue ownership of the Phoenix Coyotes, filed a document into bankruptcy court on Wednesday accusing the Leafs of exercising their territorial veto to prevent Balsillie of purchasing the Coyotes and then moving them to Hamilton."



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Originally Posted by Crazy_Ike View Post
Might want to read up on what the NHL actually said is the basis for their choice to exclude Balsillie, not the media soundbite of it. Might also want to read up on the difference between league response to the misdeeds of a current owner, and that of a prospective one.
Please provide a link. I am too lazy too look for one.

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08-22-2009, 03:51 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by poetryingasoline View Post
I do not have the information in front of me nor do I have the time to look through all of the articles and documents pertaining to the vote.
It ain't hard. 26 rejections, 3 abstains (2 were Toronto and Buffalo to cover their butts, we have no idea who the third was), one did-not-vote (Phoenix).

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My gut feeling
Your gut feeling isn't a fact.

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Remember, the NHL had this united front during the most recent lockout, and I suspect that a few teams would have sooner lived without a salary cap at that time.
And yet they followed Bettman to victory. I don't think that is proving what you think it is proving.

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As for Bettman getting canned, I am certain it will happen. The reasons for this are stated in my previous comment
You mean the one that was already rebutted?

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"While I am not fully disagreeing with you (Mulder), GB has had far more costly misfires such as the sunbelt strategy
The strategy that predated his appearance in the league? Or are Columbus and Nashville in the sunbelt now? How is it costly? How has it misfired?

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, the selling/mess of Nashville Predators
How was this Bettman's fault? How was this costly?

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and the American t.v. contract(s).
You mean getting the biggest contract the league has ever seen? Yeah I see how that would contribute to him being fired, good show.

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When compared to his successes (the expansions into Columbus were his greatest unquestioned successes) the mistakes are far more costly and there is only so much loss that the owners will put up with..."
I'd like to see your evidence FROM the owners to support that. What I see is owners constantly voting his way, giving him significant large raises, and never saying boo.

Otherwise, the only objective view here can be that you are projecting YOUR opinions onto those of the owners.

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you know, I think I will leave that up to you.
I've been here for every thread. You'd find, if you look through them, most of your points have already been thoroughly answered. Other threads as well.

Perhaps thirteen thousand posts is a bit much "catch-up", though, so here I am to keep the record straight. No, no, you can thank me later.

Quote:
http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/NHL...457096-ap.html

"Baum said the league must produce any NHL study of expansion into the Hamilton market in the past 10 years, and it must disclose all expansion and relocation fees it has charged since 1999."
Yeah? So? Have you seen any study?

Quote:
http://www.nationalpost.com/sports/s...tml?id=1890367

"PSE Sports & Entertainment, the company Canadian billionaire Jim Balsillie formed to pursue ownership of the Phoenix Coyotes, filed a document into bankruptcy court on Wednesday accusing the Leafs of exercising their territorial veto to prevent Balsillie of purchasing the Coyotes and then moving them to Hamilton."
Is a debunked demand proof of something? Even Baum has already rejected this fishing trip.

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Please provide a link. I am too lazy too look for one.
End of last thread or beginning of this one, in one of my posts.

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Originally Posted by Arthur Rimbaud View Post
When Gary Bettman leaves his position as the Commissioner of the NHL, it's very likely that the announcement will say that his departure will be a result of his own decision.

Some will say he was fired and that the BOG is letting him say it's for health/family reasons to save face.

Some will say, like you, that he wasn't fired and that he could have had the job as long as he wanted it.

There'll be a ton of speculation, of course, but only those personally involved will know.
Obviously. However, I am telling you, if you guys think that Bettman is actually looking BAD right now to the people who MATTER in this regard (ie, not the average hockey fan or the canadian sports media), you are very, very, very wrong.

The NHL has never had a president that was as firmly ensconced with support as Bettman is right now. You guys who think that he is in any kind of trouble, your opinion is not that of the owners. They look at what he has done for THEM, and it kinda, well, rocks.

There's been people predicting owner revolts against Bettman for ages. Haven't been right about it since the first lockout... where Bettman's position was eventually proven right. I wouldn't be putting money on it now.

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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Uh, that's not what you said, Ike. You said he wanted to buy a commodity far below its actual value. I personally doubt he thought it'd be that easy, but it would be equally ridiculous if he'd offered $500 MM at the outset. Why pay more than you have to?
Why indeed? However, let us not forget that Balsillie's original proposal asked the bankruptcy court to break the lease with no real penalty, prevent the Leafs and Sabres from collecting a territorial fee, and keep the league from charging for relocation. This is what he originally asked for. All of it has been since rejected, is very likely to be so, or will stand as fodder for an anti-trust suit once the initial fallout settles if he can get it that far. Had his original proposal been successful, he was looking at about a 200% INSTANT return on his investment. Was it ever really for Canada? Or was it for his pocketbook?

Motive might be revealed to be something else entirely if he suddenly pulls his offer because of the cost...

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The patriotism card, I don't really get.
The impression I got was that it was suggested by Rodier as a way of pressuring the league, misunderstanding what exactly the league would be fighting for. Rodier, like many, seems to believe that the ability of the league to protect its control of where franchises are located isn't important.


Last edited by Crazy_Ike: 08-22-2009 at 05:19 PM.
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08-22-2009, 04:56 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Crazy Ike:

Obviously. However, I am telling you, if you guys think that Bettman is actually looking BAD right now to the people who MATTER in this regard (ie, not the average hockey fan or the canadian sports media), you are very, very, very wrong.

The NHL has never had a president that was as firmly ensconced with support as Bettman is right now. You guys who think that he is in any kind of trouble, your opinion is not that of the owners. They look at what he has done for THEM, and it kinda, well, rocks.

There's been people predicting owner revolts against Bettman for ages. Haven't been right about it since the first lockout... where Bettman's position was eventually proven right. I wouldn't be putting money on it now.


Ike: in case you are considering me to be part of "you guys" -- those who "think that Bettman is actually looking BAD right now" -- you are making a mistake. I'm not.

What I am is a guy who's saying that much the same as "we have no idea who the third was", we "the average hockey fan " don't know all the ins and outs of Mr. Bettman's situation.

I just wonder how you can sound so sure that you can make statements like:

"However, I am telling you, if you guys think that Bettman is actually looking BAD right now to the people who MATTER in this regard (ie, not the average hockey fan or the canadian sports media), you are very, very, very wrong."

What's your source?

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08-22-2009, 05:18 PM
  #79
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You know, there's a quote button.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Rimbaud View Post
I just wonder how you can sound so sure that you can make statements like:

"However, I am telling you, if you guys think that Bettman is actually looking BAD right now to the people who MATTER in this regard (ie, not the average hockey fan or the canadian sports media), you are very, very, very wrong."

What's your source?
That would be the owners various votes, the increase in value of franchises, quotes from individual owners, and Bettman's contract raises.

What's the source of people who claim he's in trouble?

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08-22-2009, 05:24 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post

I think Balsille should be realising by now that he has made some major mistakes.

Throwing the bomb at Melnyk was a large one.

Another would have been the leak re the Habs sale.

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08-22-2009, 05:30 PM
  #81
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From Melnyk's quote and from certain articles earlier in the process, it seems clear that Balsillie actually had support to get a team at one point. Maybe even to the point where Hamilton was being considered a viable expansion target.

Now, he can't get a single yes vote and that was BEFORE he dragged the league's owners through the mud.

Is his job at RIM being some sort of people-person?

Speaking for myself, there was a time when I would have liked to see Balsillie and Hamilton get a team. This goodwill evaporated when I read him selling Hamilton Predators tickets while pretending to negotiate a possible non-relocating deal. Since then, nothing he has done has suggested to me he'd be anything but an unmitigated disaster of an owner.

His actions simply don't demonstrate the character and integrity the league would like to see from owners. Unlike some, this is one that, like Del Baggio, has been caught before any harm has been done. Let's be thankful he's been rejected and hopeful the bankruptcy court respects its boundaries.

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08-22-2009, 06:35 PM
  #82
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Absolutely it is just stupid that Balsillie decided to name Samueli and Melynk who were charged with the exact same thing that JB was. Correct if I am wrong but the NHL NEVER said anything about Balsillie's problems with the OSC when questioning his intregrity.
Yup, they did, there was something in one of the last few threads. I just wonder why they would bring that up at all when they know that many of their current owners have had the same or worse issues.

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08-22-2009, 07:08 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Crazy_Ike View Post
You know, there's a quote button.



That would be the owners various votes, the increase in value of franchises, quotes from individual owners, and Bettman's contract raises.

What's the source of people who claim he's in trouble?


You know, there's a quote button.

Hey, I'm a rookie! Ain't been 'round these parts for 13,000 quotes like some folks...(the kids have been watching "Toy Story", Woody).

That would be the owners various votes, the increase in value of franchises, quotes from individual owners, and Bettman's contract raises.

Thanks -- I thought that because your post was so adamant that somewhere in the 13K you had insider info on Gary Bettman's position as commissioner.

What's the source of people who claim he's in trouble?

Not being one of those people, ('Ike: in case you are considering me to be part of "you guys" -- those who "think that Bettman is actually looking BAD right now" -- you are making a mistake. I'm not.') I have no idea. I can guess if you want.


Last edited by Arthur Rimbaud: 08-22-2009 at 07:14 PM.
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08-22-2009, 07:19 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Woof View Post
Yup, they did, there was something in one of the last few threads. I just wonder why they would bring that up at all when they know that many of their current owners have had the same or worse issues.
Actually, you are wrong. There is no record of it ever being brought up during the interview with Balsillie and it wasn't quoted by Daly as one of the reasons for rejection.

http://docs.bmcgroup.com/phoenixcoyo...k-9488_544.pdf

It appears it was Balsillie who brought it up. So, as you said, I wonder why he would bring that up at all when he knew that he himself had had the same (or worse) issue?

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Originally Posted by Arthur Rimbaud View Post
[Thanks -- I thought that because your post was so adamant that somewhere in the 13K you had insider info on Gary Bettman's position as commissioner.
I think the fact he hasn't even needed a vote of confidence would also be a fairly good indicator. His position is so strong he doesn't even need it validated.

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08-22-2009, 07:35 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Crazy_Ike View Post
I think the fact he hasn't even needed a vote of confidence would also be a fairly good indicator. His position is so strong he doesn't even need it validated.
Usually when an owner gives a GM or coach one of those it's a kiss of death...

Something those who think Gary Bettman is in trouble should consider is that the absolute last thing the league needs is bad publicity.

mod delete


Last edited by LadyStanley: 08-22-2009 at 08:07 PM. Reason: OT
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08-22-2009, 08:17 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Crazy_Ike View Post
From Melnyk's quote and from certain articles earlier in the process, it seems clear that Balsillie actually had support to get a team at one point. Maybe even to the point where Hamilton was being considered a viable expansion target.

Now, he can't get a single yes vote and that was BEFORE he dragged the league's owners through the mud.
Melnyk stated "I used to privately feel sympathy for his plight..." I wonder why it had to be private sympathy. Why couldn't he publicly provide support for Balsillie?

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08-22-2009, 08:33 PM
  #87
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Melnyk stated "I used to privately feel sympathy for his plight..." I wonder why it had to be private sympathy. Why couldn't he publicly provide support for Balsillie?
You need to ask?


Okay, it was probably a rhetorical question on your part. Owners cannot really go on record, I'd guess, and tell the public that a team should be placed in another team's territory. With Melnyk, it also wouldn't be a very neighborly thing to do.

 
Old
08-22-2009, 08:39 PM
  #88
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Why does that bother you? Or surprise you that a businessman would use patriotism to advance his cause? Especially in this case where it seems particularly suited and a wise course of action. Itís almost like saying that the point is, proper businessmen donít go around doing things that will only make them money. Are you running out of real things to take a shot at him for? Surely Balsillie gives us enough material to work with on his own.

I wonder what the difference would likely have been between the money the owners would get from balsillie as expansion fees, vs relocation and indemnification fees. Is it reasonable to believe that had Balsillie had a smart enough team to make his venture through bankruptcy court successful, would a judge have allowed relocation and indemnification fees that rivalled the expansion fee? If not, maybe not such a bad poker hand from jb. He doesnt have that many chips in the pot.
Maybe it's just me, but ultra-cynical phoniness is one of the things that pushes my buttons every time.

Speaking from a more disengaged business POV, it has been disastrously unwise. Frankly, it is not only unwise, but it may very well be the absolute dumbest business move that I have seen in a long, long time. Trying to join a partnership by alienating the entire partnership? "Colossal blunder" understates it by several magnitudes. There is not a single aspect of this patriotic bullcrap that has helped JB's efforts. IMO, he is being advised by complete amateurs.

No chips in the pot? I guess we must thoroughly disagree. Assuming his goal was to get into the NHL, he is all in.

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And in the end, regardless of balsillie, hamilton is much more on the radar for an expansion team if they choose to revitalize their core that way. As Daly said, they just hitched their fortunes on the wrong horse.
Please. "On the radar". Is there anyone who seriously thinks that JB's escapades would suddenly cause the NHL to sit up and go "hey, there is this city down the road from Toronto ...".

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08-22-2009, 08:43 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Proboscis View Post
Melnyk stated "I used to privately feel sympathy for his plight..." I wonder why it had to be private sympathy. Why couldn't he publicly provide support for Balsillie?
I remember he did speak out in some support of Balsillie during the Predators attempted purchase. I can not find a link but remember it. It was just before the "Hamilton Predators" ticket deposit drive though.

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08-22-2009, 08:44 PM
  #90
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Please. "On the radar". Is there anyone who seriously thinks that JB's escapades would suddenly cause the NHL to sit up and go "hey, there is this city down the road from Toronto ...".
Don't you think Gary would love to see a team in Hamilton NOT owned by Jim?
Not that Gary would stoop to such levels, but what a kick in the face that would be to Jim.

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08-22-2009, 09:01 PM
  #91
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Don't you think Gary would love to see a team in Hamilton NOT owned by Jim?
Not that Gary would stoop to such levels, but what a kick in the face that would be to Jim.
I really, really doubt that Gary has any interest in placing an NHL team in Hamilton for any reason.

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08-22-2009, 09:13 PM
  #92
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Actually, you are wrong. There is no record of it ever being brought up during the interview with Balsillie and it wasn't quoted by Daly as one of the reasons for rejection.
Unfortunately, my friend, I have to correct you on this point somewhat.

In the NHL's Memo to the BoG by the Executive Committee reporting on JB's application (as attached to Jeremy Jacobs' declaration), the options-backdating matter was raised as one of five issues that related to JB's character/integrity evaluation.

http://docs.bmcgroup.com/phoenixcoyo...9488_586_1.pdf

(see starting at page 25)

The five issues were:

1. JB's conduct re the Penguins transaction;

2. JB's conduct re the Predators;

3. The Competition Bureau investigation in 2006 and again in 2007;

4. JBN's involvement in wrongdoing at RIM in relation to the back-dating of options; and

5. JB's conduct in the current matter.

That being said, the focus of the Executive Committee appeared to be not so much focused on the back-dating itself (although that was not ignored) but rather on the fact that:

(a) In his interview in 2006, JB "Downplayed the significance of the ... investigation [and] characterized it as a 'non-issue'."

(b) JB has publicly attributed the entire affair to his lack of knowledge regarding accounting matters and US (as opposed to Canadian) accounting practices (Ed: note that JB is in fact an accountant, although he never practiced as a CPA) and has denied any intentional wrongdoing, despite the fact that the SEC findings directly contradict that "theory".

That all being said, the options-backdating matter consumed only 2 pages out of 20 relating to JB.

Accordingly, it seems clear that the options-backdating issue did play a slight role in the Executive Committee's considerations, although the focus was not so much related to the settlement as it was to the lack of candour with which JB handled the matter both publicly and in his ownership interviews (going to the central issue of trust).

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08-22-2009, 09:18 PM
  #93
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Don't you think Gary would love to see a team in Hamilton NOT owned by Jim?
Not that Gary would stoop to such levels, but what a kick in the face that would be to Jim.
Actually, I don't.

You know, for such an alleged "blood feud" on the part of Bettman, his correspondence to JB during the Predators matter, at a time when he might have been expected to rip a strip off the guy (it was at the time that JB was telling Bettman that he was going to sell tix), his email correspondence was remarkably rancour-free. He was even offering to be "helpful".

The problem is that this realization doesn't sell papers.

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08-22-2009, 09:39 PM
  #94
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I really, really doubt that Gary has any interest in placing an NHL team in Hamilton for any reason.
I agree - this really truly has very little to do with JB IMHO - this has everything to do with the MLSE not wanting hockey in their backyard - everything else is a smokescreen. I don't think anyone could argue that, but not for the attempts by JB to get a team and move it, the NHL would have been happy to have him (character issues and all) if he agreed to stay in Phoenix (or even if he said he wanted to move the team to Vegas or KC or anywhere other than S.O.). So all of this peripheral stuff is nothing but the NHL taking the attention off of the REAL cause of this fight. Call it a big diversion.

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08-22-2009, 09:43 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Proboscis View Post
Melnyk stated "I used to privately feel sympathy for his plight..." I wonder why it had to be private sympathy. Why couldn't he publicly provide support for Balsillie?
Once again everyone is overblowing Melnyk's comments. Was anything that was said about Melnyk untrue? If that is the case then what is his problem? I am sure he will be handsomely rewarded by Bettman for his loyalty - that is what Bettman does and that is why the owners like him - he takes care of the owners.

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08-22-2009, 09:57 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Fox X Mulder View Post
Don't you think Gary would love to see a team in Hamilton NOT owned by Jim?
Not that Gary would stoop to such levels, but what a kick in the face that would be to Jim.
If the NHL is going to put a second team in Southern Ontario they are probably going to have it be Toronto proper to better get the marquee value of a big city and better capitalize on a bigger market than Hamilton.

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08-22-2009, 10:07 PM
  #97
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I have to roll my eyes at the presumption that you make that everything that is reported in the newspaper is automatically immune to questioning.
I have to roll my eyes at your superior/insulting attitude as expressed in the above quote.

I highly doubt that Fugu, or any other poster for that matter, presumes that "everything that is reported in the newspaper is automatically immune to questioning." That's ridiculous and you know Fugu as a poster well enough to realize he does not in fact hold that view.

GHOST

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08-22-2009, 10:22 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Jaym3000 View Post
I agree - this really truly has very little to do with JB IMHO - this has everything to do with the MLSE not wanting hockey in their backyard - everything else is a smokescreen. I don't think anyone could argue that, but not for the attempts by JB to get a team and move it, the NHL would have been happy to have him (character issues and all) if he agreed to stay in Phoenix (or even if he said he wanted to move the team to Vegas or KC or anywhere other than S.O.). So all of this peripheral stuff is nothing but the NHL taking the attention off of the REAL cause of this fight. Call it a big diversion.
I think Balsillie may have been welcome had he tried to purchase Phoenix via regular route (i.e., not bankruptcy) with a promise not to move them. There would have been a lot of fighting and they may have required that he be a minority owner for a while (call it a probationary period after the issues with Nashville).

But by choosing the method he did, he made it very clear that he has no respect for the way the NHL chooses to conduct their business, and I would bet my life savings at this point that, should an expansion franchise be granted to Hamilton in his lifetime, he would be unanimously told no by the BoG.

The issue in play is not relocation to Hamilton. The issue in play is the ability to sell the team (and potentially move the team) without the NHL's approval. They, and every other league in existence, will never, ever, ever play ball with an owner, no matter how rich, who makes those his terms.

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08-22-2009, 11:14 PM
  #99
Crazy_Ike
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Originally Posted by GSC2k2 View Post
Unfortunately, my friend, I have to correct you on this point somewhat.
Your document was a lot better than mine... Daly didn't bring it up at all.

But, as you said, it was not that he had problems with his stock activities that was at issue, but that he underplayed it to the league.

The league has historically reacted extremely poorly to people who lie to it. Mod: deleted.


Last edited by Fugu: 08-23-2009 at 10:06 AM. Reason: libel
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08-22-2009, 11:23 PM
  #100
bbud
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Originally Posted by RousselRising View Post
If Pro USA = trying to grow the fan base in non-traditional US hockey markets, attempting to expand the reach of the NHL deep into the southern US and make the league and its members, present and future, more profitable for decades to come, then we agree. But I doubt that's what you meant.
i would like to see where his expansion to those said markets hass provided any profits at this point other than expansion fees add up losses and near bankrupts and his own teams are miserable fails , the ones before him ok San Jose does well Anaheim holds on ok but Pho Nashville , Atlanta are barely surviving and we aill see more issues out of his strategy yet but you will blame someone else next so it wont matter , for what its worth Burkie would be 10x better smart knows the game and played i still think that matters.

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