There seems to be a consensus that the Leafs' defence top 4 will consist of Kaberle, Komisarek, Beauchemin and Schenn, but what pairings do you want to see FROM THOSE 4 PLAYERS?
A part of me would love watching Komisarek and Schenn bringing the pain to the opposition forwards as a tandem, another part of me would love to see Schenn given top line duties alongside Kaberle, but a 3rd part (I would like to remind you that the extent that I've watched Komisarek play is only against the Leafs and I was too busy hating his guts to be watching his defensive play) wonders if Komi needs to play alongside a puck mover like Kabs, and thinks that they would play well together as a top pairing. I'm torn, but at the moment I'm leaning towards Kabs and Komi, and BeacheSchenn (get it? ).
Last edited by russmatuss: 08-24-2009 at 09:36 AM.
I think Beauchemin's experience would do well in a pairing with Kaberle. Last season whenever Schenn and Kaberle were together it seemed that some of Kaberle's defensive responsibility left Schenn out to dry so leaving the two of them together might hinder Schenn's development. On the plus side, I think Schenn could look up to Komisarek as a hard-nosed defensive defenseman he could emulate and surpass.
If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. As quoted in Listening and Speaking : A Guide to Effective Oral Communication (1954) by Ralph G. Nichols and Thomas R. Lewis, p. 74
Kaberle - Komisarek (Offense from Kabs, Defense from Komi. Montreal fans say that Komi played his best hockey when paired with Markov, Kaberle plays a very similar game) Beauchemin - Schenn (this will be our shut down pair. Beauch is as steady as a rock if he continues playing as he did with the Ducks that is. Perfect mentor for Schenn) White - Finger (White provides the offense and puckmoving, Finger provides grit and a defense first mentality)
Reserve: Van Ryn, Exelby, Frogren
We have a lot of good defensemen on this roster, it feels wrong that we will be sitting one of Van Ryn, White or Finger. These players are all too good to
If people put Stajan, Grabovski in the top 2 for the Leafs centers, does it mean they don't like Kadri?
Wilson and Fletcher said last year that if Schenn wasn't playing in the team's top 4 he wasn't making the team. He made the team. Schenn is not getting demoted to the bottom pairing this season for Mike Van Ryn. Nice try though...
One of the choices has to be eliminated immediately. The Leafs aren't going to form pairs with two right side defenders and two left side defenders (Beauchemin-Kaberle, Schenn-Komisarek). I like a Komisarek-Kaberle pairing because it puts the toughest and most puck skilled of Schenn and Komisarek at this moment in time with Kaberle hopefully enhancing Kaberle's effectiveness.
Wilson and Fletcher said last year that if Schenn wasn't playing in the team's top 4 he wasn't making the team. He made the team. Schenn is not getting demoted to the bottom pairing this season for Mike Van Ryn. Nice try though...
One of the choices has to be eliminated immediately. The Leafs aren't going to form pairs with two right side defenders and two left side defenders (Beauchemin-Kaberle, Schenn-Komisarek). I like a Komisarek-Kaberle pairing because it puts the toughest and most puck skilled of Schenn and Komisarek at this moment in time with Kaberle hopefully enhancing Kaberle's effectiveness.
Obviously, Schenn has a guaranteed spot like some of the other choices.
The question wasn't what pairings do you expect, it was what pairings do you want to see.
I'd go with the best 4, not the best future 4.
Also Fletcher and RW didn't have Beauchemin and Komisarek to chose from.
Obviously, Schenn has a guaranteed spot like some of the other choices.
The question wasn't what pairings do you expect, it was what pairings do you want to see.
I'd go with the best 4, not the best future 4.
Also Fletcher and RW didn't have Beauchemin and Komisarek to chose from.
Fair enough. But seriously, you think Mike Van Ryn is better than Luke Schenn, especially defensively which is by far the area the Leafs are desperate to improve this season? That's going against most of the hockey universe. Heck, it's debatable whether Mike Van Ryn stays with the team this fall.
Fair enough. But seriously, you think Mike Van Ryn is better than Luke Schenn, especially defensively which is by far the area the Leafs are desperate to improve this season? That's going against most of the hockey universe. Heck, it's debatable whether Mike Van Ryn stays with the team this fall.
If he is healthy, yes. Unfortunately, he was injured more than healthy the past few years. Turned out to be a horrible trade for McCabe.
Plus Beauchemin and Komisarek are very good defensively.
Obviously, Schenn has a guaranteed spot like some of the other choices.
The question wasn't what pairings do you expect, it was what pairings do you want to see.
I'd go with the best 4, not the best future 4.
Also Fletcher and RW didn't have Beauchemin and Komisarek to chose from.
ULF you make a good point.. it is who i would like to see, and i think van ryan with beauchimen over schenn because of his offensive abilities and if you were to put white and schenn as your third pairing then you have 3 complete defensive lines with both offensive and defensive potential.
however, i expect to see schenn on the second pairing with beauchimen.
and remember who we started out with last season.. schenn didnt have the defensive core he does this year to compete with. if beauchimen and komi were here last season with a healthy can ryan schenn would have played in the WHL, IMO
Fair enough. But seriously, you think Mike Van Ryn is better than Luke Schenn, especially defensively which is by far the area the Leafs are desperate to improve this season? That's going against most of the hockey universe. Heck, it's debatable whether Mike Van Ryn stays with the team this fall.
i dont think its going against the hockey universe.. i mean outside of toronto schenn is just another player that is overrated by leaf fans.
sure, they all believe he has the potential but last season all he proved is that he can compete in this level at a young age and look good doing it. most young defenders get eaten alive and shenn didnt, IMO.
however, van ryn.. why is he debatable about starting with the team? logjam. not at all to do with his skill. If it were to do with his skill, he would have been gone for a 2nd rounder by now. IMO he is a better player than a 2nd round pick, if he can stay healthy. the only question mark around van ryn is the fact that he gets injured quite often. when he was in the line-up last year, he definately looked better than schenn.
Average ice time for Leafs' defensemen last season:
Luke Schenn:
Overall TOI: 21:32 (4th on the Leafs)
Short-Handed TOI: 3:05 (1st on the Leafs)
Even Strength TOI: 18:10 (2nd on the Leafs)
Power Play TOI: virtually non-existent
Mike Van Ryn:
Overall TOI: 19:37 (6th on the Leafs behind even Jeff Finger)
Short-Handed TOI: 1:53 (4th on the Leafs)
Even Strength TOI: 15:22 (6th on the Leafs)
Power Play TOI: 2:22 (4th on the Leafs)
Come again about how Van Ryn is going to be in the top 2 pairing? Van Ryn wasn't even in the top 2 pairing in terms of even strength ice time. Van Ryn is an injured mess of damaged goods, a situation that didn't improve last season, and somehow he's going to leapfrog a young, up and comer like Luke Schenn, swapping from the left side to the right side to boot at the same time? Bold prediction, I'll give you that.
Average ice time for Leafs' defensemen last season:
Luke Schenn:
Overall TOI: 21:32 (4th on the Leafs)
Short-Handed TOI: 3:05 (1st on the Leafs)
Even Strength TOI: 18:10 (2nd on the Leafs)
Power Play TOI: virtually non-existent
Mike Van Ryn:
Overall TOI: 19:37 (6th on the Leafs behind even Jeff Finger)
Short-Handed TOI: 1:53 (4th on the Leafs)
Even Strength TOI: 15:22 (6th on the Leafs)
Power Play TOI: 2:22 (4th on the Leafs)
Come again about how Van Ryn is going to be in the top 2 pairing? Van Ryn wasn't even in the top 2 pairing in terms of even strength ice time. Van Ryn is an injured mess of damaged goods, a situation that didn't improve last season, and somehow he's going to leapfrog a young, up and comer like Luke Schenn, swapping from the left side to the right side to boot at the same time? Bold prediction, I'll give you that.
once again, you are comparing a healthy season to an injury plagued season.
also, a non-playoff team allowing younger players to get NHL time.
aaaaand, dont put schenn playing both sides as a plus. do you not remember the games that wilson had him playing the wrong side on d? they were brutal.
i like schenn, and thought he had an excellent season. but for a rookie, if he had the same season he did last year as a 5th-8th year veteran then we would be talking about moving him.
i dont think its going against the hockey universe.. i mean outside of toronto schenn is just another player that is overrated by leaf fans.
sure, they all believe he has the potential but last season all he proved is that he can compete in this level at a young age and look good doing it. most young defenders get eaten alive and shenn didnt, IMO.
however, van ryn.. why is he debatable about starting with the team? logjam. not at all to do with his skill. If it were to do with his skill, he would have been gone for a 2nd rounder by now. IMO he is a better player than a 2nd round pick, if he can stay healthy. the only question mark around van ryn is the fact that he gets injured quite often. when he was in the line-up last year, he definately looked better than schenn.
It's interesting that you mentioned Schenn as "just another player that is overrated by leaf fans" then proceed to seriously overate Mike Van Ryn. Van Ryn was a salary dump in order for Florida to take McCabe. Just like Exelby was a salary dump in order for Atlanta to take Kubina. I think some hockey fans are still having trouble fathoming that sometimes the assets returning in hockey trades aren't comparable talents to the talents that left town.
Average ice time for Leafs' defensemen last season:
Luke Schenn:
Overall TOI: 21:32 (4th on the Leafs)
Short-Handed TOI: 3:05 (1st on the Leafs)
Even Strength TOI: 18:10 (2nd on the Leafs)
Power Play TOI: virtually non-existent
Mike Van Ryn:
Overall TOI: 19:37 (6th on the Leafs behind even Jeff Finger)
Short-Handed TOI: 1:53 (4th on the Leafs)
Even Strength TOI: 15:22 (6th on the Leafs)
Power Play TOI: 2:22 (4th on the Leafs)
Come again about how Van Ryn is going to be in the top 2 pairing? Van Ryn wasn't even in the top 2 pairing in terms of even strength ice time. Van Ryn is an injured mess of damaged goods, a situation that didn't improve last season, and somehow he's going to leapfrog a young, up and comer like Luke Schenn, swapping from the left side to the right side to boot at the same time? Bold prediction, I'll give you that.
Schenn is a defensive d-man, and would be competing with Komisarek and Beauchemin, not Van Ryn. Check out the SHTOI/g for Beauchemin with the ducks while healthy, you don't put defensively suspect d-men on PK units. He played that many minutes for Burke.
Average ice time for Leafs' defensemen last season:
Luke Schenn:
Overall TOI: 21:32 (4th on the Leafs)
Short-Handed TOI: 3:05 (1st on the Leafs)
Even Strength TOI: 18:10 (2nd on the Leafs)
Power Play TOI: virtually non-existent
Mike Van Ryn:
Overall TOI: 19:37 (6th on the Leafs behind even Jeff Finger)
Short-Handed TOI: 1:53 (4th on the Leafs)
Even Strength TOI: 15:22 (6th on the Leafs)
Power Play TOI: 2:22 (4th on the Leafs)
Come again about how Van Ryn is going to be in the top 2 pairing? Van Ryn wasn't even in the top 2 pairing in terms of even strength ice time. Van Ryn is an injured mess of damaged goods, a situation that didn't improve last season, and somehow he's going to leapfrog a young, up and comer like Luke Schenn, swapping from the left side to the right side to boot at the same time? Bold prediction, I'll give you that.
You should be omitting the games MVR left early due to injury. Once that happens, the ice-time becomes much closer.
It's interesting that you mentioned Schenn as "just another player that is overrated by leaf fans" then proceed to seriously overate Mike Van Ryn. Van Ryn was a salary dump in order for Florida to take McCabe. Just like Exelby was a salary dump in order for Atlanta to take Kubina. I think some hockey fans are still having trouble fathoming that sometimes the assets returning in hockey trades aren't comparable talents to the talents that left town.
i dont think i once said van ryn was anything compared to mccabe, you just put those words in my mouth.
my debate was between schenn and van ryn.
and i dont know how i overrated van ryn. i simply said that the stats you used were during an injury plagued season for van ryn. that to be fair, use his other statistics and they will look better then schenns.
i dont think making the statment that schenn is viewed by the rest of the league as "overrated by leaf fans", especially when you look at all the other forums, seems pretty consistant.
Schenn is a defensive d-man, and would be competing with Komisarek and Beauchemin, not Van Ryn. Check out the SHTOI/g for Beauchemin with the ducks while healthy, you don't put defensively suspect d-men on PK units. He played that many minutes for Burke.
Beauchemin plays the left side. Schenn plays the right side. The presence of Beauchemin isn't going to cause anything to happen to Schenn's status. Komisarek plays the right side but so did Kubina. Nothing has changed for Schenn.
The Leafs swapped out a lead footed pinching machine in Kubina for a more defensively sound, more mobile defender in Komisarek. Beauchemin bumps down the left side defenders of which the perhaps out of position Van Ryn patrolled at times last season. It seems on the surface that Van Ryn will be competing with Finger and White for either one of the last pairing spots. Maybe the right side is Van Ryn's better side but the low cost of White should see him stay. Van Ryn may win the spot from Finger because he's a better talent but I suspect we'll see Exelby handed that spot next to White to start the season in order to see what he can do.
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