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Yzerman 88-89...best season by player (not 99/66/04)?

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Old
08-24-2009, 06:10 PM
  #1
rallymaster19
 
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Yzerman 88-89...best season by player (not 99/66/04)?

Okay so this notion came to me from the "How is Messier better than Yzerman..." thread where some people made the claim that Messier's 127-point 89-90 and 107-point 91-92 campaigns were somehow comparable to Yzerman's best season.

In 1988-89, Steve Yzerman put up 65 goals, 90 assists for 155 points, the most points by any player in a single season all-time not named Gretzky or Lemiuex. However, that season itself both 99 and 66 beat him in the scoring race, overshadowing Yzerman's accomplishments.

In points, the top 10 scorers were:
1. Mario Lemieux-PIT 199
2. Wayne Gretzky-LAK 168
3. Steve Yzerman-DET 155
4. Bernie Nicholls-LAK 150
5. Rob Brown-PIT 115
6. Paul Coffey-PIT 113
7. Joe Mullen-CGY 110
8. Jari Kurri-EDM 102
9. Jimmy Carson-EDM 100
10. Luc Robitaille-LAK 98

If you remove Yzerman and 66 and 99 and their linemates (Nicholls and Brown); Paul Coffey (also a Lemiuex teammate) becomes the highest scorer with 113 points. Steve Yzerman finishes with 37% more points than Coffey. He also finishes 27% higher than the next guy in goals, Joe Mullen (51).

Has there ever been a bigger gap points-wise at the end of the season (not including 99/66)? It's also more remarkable thinking of the linemates and teammates Yzerman had. No legitimate all-star caliber wingers or solid puck-moving defensemen (unless Chaisson counts). Of all the other great statistical seasons by other players, Espisito had Orr, Jagr had Lemiuex, LaFontaine had Mogilny's 76 goals, and Bossy had Trottier & Potvin. Had Yzerman had a Kurri or Borque, he may have hit 170-180.

To put it into perspective, if you remove Gretzky and Lemieux and their linemates from the 88-89 season, you have only Yzerman and 4 other players with 100 points or more in a high scoring era, with Coffey the highest at 113 points. Last season, there were 3 100-point scorers, with Malkin winning the Art Ross with also 113 points, and Ovechkin second with 110 points. Of all the hype we hear about Ovechkin, Malkin and Crosby, to match Yzerman's feat, it would be exactly like someone scoring 155 points last season. That's how good Yzerman was.

Because Yzerman played alongside the two greatest forwards who had their peaks also coincide with his, Stevie's 88-89 season gets grossly underrated. I'm going out and saying this was the greatest individual season all-time in the NHL by a skater not named Gretzky, Lemieux or Orr. Comments?

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08-24-2009, 07:22 PM
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Yzerman had a great year... but seriously except statistically in a purely gross number of points it was just a great year. I'd say Sakic's Hart year was better, Howe has like 4 years better... at least. Bobby Clarke.. a couple of years he had like 20 goals or something scored against him at even strength and beat Orr and Espo for the Hart. Beliveau had a totally dominant year. Trottier's Hart year looks pretty good.... I am sure there are others that are clearly better not by Orr, 99 or 66. Of course Espo has high with his mindblowing 76 goal 152 point season when no one else had even got near that point before... and didn't until Gretzky came along.

I love Yzerman... but his 155 points were amazing but not among the best years ever... Nicholls got 150 that year... and while Yzerman won the Pearson... and was the players choice over Mario and Wayne i still don't see it as anywhere near the very best season. Jagr has a couple of similar seasons where he dominated scoring to a large degree but did not really in my mind constitute the best seasons ever.

I say that Yzerman season is if anything overrated... he was not much different the year before when he broke out and missed some games or the few years after... he just got alot of points.

You mention his lack of good linemates.. that is true, but it also made Yzerman HAVE to sacrifice defensive hockey for offence.... he took tons of chances... he forced plays... that is not necessarily bad because who else was going to score on the Wings? But it also really when balanced against a later Yzerman that played both ways does not make it seem like some kind of great season.

I'd take AO's season either of the last 2 years over Yzerman's 88/89 too.

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08-24-2009, 07:43 PM
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rallymaster19 View Post
Okay so this notion came to me from the "How is Messier better than Yzerman..." thread where some people made the claim that Messier's 127-point 89-90 and 107-point 91-92 campaigns were somehow comparable to Yzerman's best season.

In 1988-89, Steve Yzerman put up 65 goals, 90 assists for 155 points, the most points by any player in a single season all-time not named Gretzky or Lemiuex. However, that season itself both 99 and 66 beat him in the scoring race, overshadowing Yzerman's accomplishments.

In points, the top 10 scorers were:
1. Mario Lemieux-PIT 199
2. Wayne Gretzky-LAK 168
3. Steve Yzerman-DET 155
4. Bernie Nicholls-LAK 150
5. Rob Brown-PIT 115
6. Paul Coffey-PIT 113
7. Joe Mullen-CGY 110
8. Jari Kurri-EDM 102
9. Jimmy Carson-EDM 100
10. Luc Robitaille-LAK 98

If you remove Yzerman and 66 and 99 and their linemates (Nicholls and Brown); Paul Coffey (also a Lemiuex teammate) becomes the highest scorer with 113 points. Steve Yzerman finishes with 37% more points than Coffey. He also finishes 27% higher than the next guy in goals, Joe Mullen (51).

Has there ever been a bigger gap points-wise at the end of the season (not including 99/66)? It's also more remarkable thinking of the linemates and teammates Yzerman had. No legitimate all-star caliber wingers or solid puck-moving defensemen (unless Chaisson counts). Of all the other great statistical seasons by other players, Espisito had Orr, Jagr had Lemiuex, LaFontaine had Mogilny's 76 goals, and Bossy had Trottier & Potvin. Had Yzerman had a Kurri or Borque, he may have hit 170-180.

To put it into perspective, if you remove Gretzky and Lemieux and their linemates from the 88-89 season, you have only Yzerman and 4 other players with 100 points or more in a high scoring era, with Coffey the highest at 113 points. Last season, there were 3 100-point scorers, with Malkin winning the Art Ross with also 113 points, and Ovechkin second with 110 points. Of all the hype we hear about Ovechkin, Malkin and Crosby, to match Yzerman's feat, it would be exactly like someone scoring 155 points last season. That's how good Yzerman was.

Because Yzerman played alongside the two greatest forwards who had their peaks also coincide with his, Stevie's 88-89 season gets grossly underrated. I'm going out and saying this was the greatest individual season all-time in the NHL by a skater not named Gretzky, Lemieux or Orr. Comments?
The flipside to Yzerman being on a weak team was that he was able to play a high number of minutes in order to score that many points.

Here are the even-strength goals against for the top 10 scoring forwards that year.

Mario Lemieux - 199 pts, 88 ESGA
Wayne Gretzky - 168 pts, 114 ESGA
3. Steve Yzerman - 155 pts, 100 ESGA
4. Bernie Nicholls - 150 pts, 91 ESGA
5. Rob Brown - 115 pts, 50 ESGA
6. Joe Mullen - 110 pts, 37 ESGA
7. Jari Kurri - 102 pts, 66 ESGA
8. Jimmy Carson - 100 pts, 66 ESGA
9. Luc Robitaille - 98 pts, 94 ESGA
10. Dale Hawerchuk - 96 pts, 100 ESGA
11. Dan Quinn - 94 pts, 85 ESGA
12. Mark Messier - 93 pts, 66 ESGA

Yzerman has significantly more ESGA than most others, with the exception of Gretzky, Gretzky's linemates, and Dale Hawerchuk. While there's a lot of variation in single-season ESGA, this isn't a fluke - Yzerman was second among forwards in ESGA the following year. This suggests that either he had defensive problems or he played a huge number of minutes (I think it's mostly the latter).

While playing on a weaker team means less help from linemates, it also means an opportunity to play many more minutes - an opportunity which Yzerman took advantage of to score a lot of points.

I'll add that once you remove Gretzky, Lemieux, Yzerman, and their linemates, this is a pretty weak group of forwards. Also, Joe Sakic's 2001 season was dominant in points scored once you remove the Lemieux-assisted great Jaromir Jagr - and he added a Selke nomination.

*I've estimated and subtracted shorthanded goals from (TGF - PPGF)

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08-24-2009, 08:00 PM
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Are you including goaltenders? Because Hasek has had multiple seasons that were better.

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08-24-2009, 08:53 PM
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One recognizes that it is accepted to view player's performance entirely out of context of the impact it had on his team.

I cannot subscribe to that point.

Yes, Yzerman had a superb season. No question about it. But it was on a poor team. His fault? No. But it is part of the equation for this observer.

I'm more impressed by big-number players who deliver in pressure (successful) environments and who's accomplishment have an impact beyond the personal.

Otherwise, Marcel Dionne is one of the top players ever. (He's not.)

Strictly from a personal offensive standpoint, Yzerman's 1988-89 season was epic. But he was a better player in subsequent years.

Just my opinon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cup 2010 Sens Rule View Post
Yzerman had a great year... but seriously except statistically in a purely gross number of points it was just a great year. I'd say Sakic's Hart year was better, Howe has like 4 years better... at least. Bobby Clarke.. a couple of years he had like 20 goals or something scored against him at even strength and beat Orr and Espo for the Hart. Beliveau had a totally dominant year. Trottier's Hart year looks pretty good.... I am sure there are others that are clearly better not by Orr, 99 or 66. Of course Espo has high with his mindblowing 76 goal 152 point season when no one else had even got near that point before... and didn't until Gretzky came along.
That point (boldfaced) about Clarke is astounding. Never knew that.

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08-24-2009, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
The flipside to Yzerman being on a weak team was that he was able to play a high number of minutes in order to score that many points.

Here are the even-strength goals against for the top 10 scoring forwards that year.

Mario Lemieux - 199 pts, 88 ESGA
Wayne Gretzky - 168 pts, 114 ESGA
3. Steve Yzerman - 155 pts, 100 ESGA
4. Bernie Nicholls - 150 pts, 91 ESGA
5. Rob Brown - 115 pts, 50 ESGA
6. Joe Mullen - 110 pts, 37 ESGA
7. Jari Kurri - 102 pts, 66 ESGA
8. Jimmy Carson - 100 pts, 66 ESGA
9. Luc Robitaille - 98 pts, 94 ESGA
10. Dale Hawerchuk - 96 pts, 100 ESGA
11. Dan Quinn - 94 pts, 85 ESGA
12. Mark Messier - 93 pts, 66 ESGA

Yzerman has significantly more ESGA than most others, with the exception of Gretzky, Gretzky's linemates, and Dale Hawerchuk. While there's a lot of variation in single-season ESGA, this isn't a fluke - Yzerman was second among forwards in ESGA the following year. This suggests that either he had defensive problems or he played a huge number of minutes (I think it's mostly the latter).

While playing on a weaker team means less help from linemates, it also means an opportunity to play many more minutes - an opportunity which Yzerman took advantage of to score a lot of points.

I'll add that once you remove Gretzky, Lemieux, Yzerman, and their linemates, this is a pretty weak group of forwards. Also, Joe Sakic's 2001 season was dominant in points scored once you remove the Lemieux-assisted great Jaromir Jagr - and he added a Selke nomination.

*I've estimated and subtracted shorthanded goals from (TGF - PPGF)
I'd love to find Yzerman's minutes from this year... as I remember he played a ton -- I think another contributing factor to the goals against was he often found himself double-shifting on the checking line against other teams' top lines.

Sakic in 2001 was not his best 'defensive' year -- he only averaged 46 seconds on the penalty kill. He usually averaged more than 1:20 and as high as 3:30 per game. He did lead the league in +/- that year, which I think had much more to do with his Selke votes that year than his actual defensive play. Considering he has placed 2, 9, 10, 13, 15, 15 in Selke voting, I think the 2nd was a bit of an aberration.

I personally find Fedorov's Hart year to be all-around more impressive than Sakic's, as I think he really was the best two-way forward that year - but will probably be labeled a homer.

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08-24-2009, 09:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
Are you including goaltenders? Because Hasek has had multiple seasons that were better.
No, I was asking for just skaters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cup 2010 Sens Rule View Post
I say that Yzerman season is if anything overrated... he was not much different the year before when he broke out and missed some games or the few years after... he just got alot of points.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
Strictly from a personal offensive standpoint, Yzerman's 1988-89 season was epic. But he was a better player in subsequent years.

Just my opinon.
This is what I mean by underrated. Had Lemiuex and Gretzky not played in the NHL, Yzerman's 89 season would be the gold standard, at least from a purely offensive standpoint, just like Gretzky and Lemiuex themselves weren't known for their defensive play and forechecking. I know team success has a big influence on how players are ranked, but I'm trying to look at that year from a purely individual standpoint- what Yzerman contributed to the team minus his faults that season- and not anything anyone else on the Wings did.

In the end, I'm interested to know how people would rank this individual season then? Is it top 10, top 5, top 2 (not including 66/99/4 of course)?

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08-24-2009, 09:41 PM
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I'd have to disagree wholeheartedly with it being the best non Orr/Lemieux/Gretzky season. I'm sort of in the same boat as Trottier here. The playoffs are part of the season as well, and Yzerman's didn't live up to his regular season. 10 points in six games is nice, but below his seasonal pace, and he was by far his team's worst plus/minus in the playoffs as they were upset by the lowly 66-point Blackhawks in the first round.

I also suspect you are only looking at modern era players. Clearly Howe and Hull, just to name a couple, had multiple seasons that were superior just going back as far as the 1950's.

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08-24-2009, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rallymaster19 View Post
Steve Yzerman finishes with 37% more points than Coffey. He also finishes 27% higher than the next guy in goals, Joe Mullen (51).

Has there ever been a bigger gap points-wise at the end of the season (not including 99/66)?
Yzerman had a great season, but it wasn't even the best season by a Red Wings forward.

In 1953, Howe scored 95 points. Excluding his linemate (Ted Lindsay), the next best scorer (Maurice Richard) had just 61 points, giving Howe a 56% lead. Howe also scored 63% more goals and 21% more assists than the closest players (excluding teammates).

Obviously Howe played with much stronger teammates than Yzerman, but Howe was significantly tougher and was better defensively than Yzerman at that point in his career.

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08-24-2009, 10:55 PM
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Exactly.
There are numerous seasons by a number of players superior to Stevie Y's '89 campaign. Howe and Hull jump to mind of course, but I would also immediately point out Bourque's '90 season.

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08-24-2009, 11:29 PM
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Here are a few seasons that I would consider better than Yzerman's 1988-89 season. Per the thread starter's intention, I am going to omit goaltenders. These are in chronological order:

-Jaromir Jagr, 1998-99: Jagr scored 127 points at the height of the dead puck era, leading the league in scoring by 20 points. Jagr finishes over 50% ahead of teammate Martin Straka's 83 points, and more than doubles every other player on his team.

-Sergei Fedorov, 1993-94: Fedorov produced one of the most dominating two-way seasons in NHL history, stepping up in the wake of Yzerman's injury to finish 3rd in goals, 2nd in points, and wins the Selke trophy convincingly.

-Ray Bourque, 1989-90: Bourque should have won the Hart trophy after producing arguably the best overall season by a defenseman not named Orr, leading his team to the President's trophy and then the Stanley Cup finals.

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08-24-2009, 11:44 PM
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In 2000 the Hockey News polled 20 "experts" and asked them to vote on the greatest individual season's in NHL history.

The Top 40

1 - Orr 1969/70
2 - Gretzky 1981/82
3 - Gretzky 1985/86
4 - M. Richard 1944/45
5 - Orr 1974/75
6 - Gretzky 1983/84
7 - Lemieux 1988/89
8 - P. Esposito 1970/71
9 - Lemieux 1992/93
10 - Coffey 1985/86
11 - Orr 1970/71
12 - Hainsworth 1928/29
13 - Orr 1971/72
14 - Gretzky 1979/80
15 - Malone 1917/18
16 - Bossy 1980/81
17 - Mikita 1966/67
18 - Gretzky 1984/85
19 - Howe 1952/53
20 - P. Esposito 1968/69
21 - Sawchuk 1950/51
22 - Bo. Hull 1965/66
23 - T. Esposito 1969/70
24 - Hasek 1997/98
25 - Parent 1973/74
26 - Br. Hull 1990/91
27 - Howe 1968/69
28 - Selanne 1992/93
29 - Howe 1950/51
30 - Bourque 1979/80
31 - Bossy 1977/78
32 - Gretzky 1982/83
33 - Shore 1932/33
34 - Lemieux 1987/88
35 - Gretzky 1986/87
36 - Orr 1973/74
37 - Gretzky 1980/81
38 - Cowley 1943/44
39 - Hasek 1993/94
40 - Barrasso 1983/84

Voters - Colin Campbell, Ron Caron, Ed Chynoweth, John Davidson, Steve Dryden, Eric Duhatschek, James Duplacey, Helene Elliott, Emile Francis, Bob Goodenow, Bill Hay, Dick Irvin Jr, Bob McKenzie, Peter McNab, Al Morganti, Harry Neale, Dick Patrick, Jim Proudfoot, Frank Selke Jr, Frank Udvari.

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08-24-2009, 11:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens Fan View Post
In 2000 the Hockey News polled 20 "experts" and asked them to vote on the greatest individual season's in NHL history.

The Top 40

1 - Orr 1969/70
2 - Gretzky 1981/82
3 - Gretzky 1985/86
4 - M. Richard 1944/45
5 - Orr 1974/75
6 - Gretzky 1983/84
7 - Lemieux 1988/89
8 - P. Esposito 1970/71
9 - Lemieux 1992/93
10 - Coffey 1985/86
11 - Orr 1970/71
12 - Hainsworth 1928/29
13 - Orr 1971/72
14 - Gretzky 1979/80
15 - Malone 1917/18
16 - Bossy 1980/81
17 - Mikita 1966/67
18 - Gretzky 1984/85
19 - Howe 1952/53
20 - P. Esposito 1968/69
21 - Sawchuk 1950/51
22 - Bo. Hull 1965/66
23 - T. Esposito 1969/70
24 - Hasek 1997/98
25 - Parent 1973/74
26 - Br. Hull 1990/91
27 - Howe 1968/69
28 - Selanne 1992/93
29 - Howe 1950/51
30 - Bourque 1979/80
31 - Bossy 1977/78
32 - Gretzky 1982/83
33 - Shore 1932/33
34 - Lemieux 1987/88
35 - Gretzky 1986/87
36 - Orr 1973/74
37 - Gretzky 1980/81
38 - Cowley 1943/44
39 - Hasek 1993/94
40 - Barrasso 1983/84

Voters - Colin Campbell, Ron Caron, Ed Chynoweth, John Davidson, Steve Dryden, Eric Duhatschek, James Duplacey, Helene Elliott, Emile Francis, Bob Goodenow, Bill Hay, Dick Irvin Jr, Bob McKenzie, Peter McNab, Al Morganti, Harry Neale, Dick Patrick, Jim Proudfoot, Frank Selke Jr, Frank Udvari.
Are they serious with some of those? I'm not going to run through the whole thing at the moment, Lemieux 1992/93 at #9 and Hasek 1997/98 at #24 are both just laughably low. Not to mention the years they have listed for Selanne and Bourque are not even their personal best seasons, and Hasek's second entry is maybe his 4th best year.

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08-25-2009, 02:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Cup 2010 Sens Rule View Post
Yzerman had a great year... but seriously except statistically in a purely gross number of points it was just a great year. I'd say Sakic's Hart year was better, Howe has like 4 years better... at least. Bobby Clarke.. a couple of years he had like 20 goals or something scored against him at even strength and beat Orr and Espo for the Hart. Beliveau had a totally dominant year. Trottier's Hart year looks pretty good.... I am sure there are others that are clearly better not by Orr, 99 or 66. Of course Espo has high with his mindblowing 76 goal 152 point season when no one else had even got near that point before... and didn't until Gretzky came along.

I love Yzerman... but his 155 points were amazing but not among the best years ever... Nicholls got 150 that year... and while Yzerman won the Pearson... and was the players choice over Mario and Wayne i still don't see it as anywhere near the very best season. Jagr has a couple of similar seasons where he dominated scoring to a large degree but did not really in my mind constitute the best seasons ever.

I say that Yzerman season is if anything overrated... he was not much different the year before when he broke out and missed some games or the few years after... he just got alot of points.

You mention his lack of good linemates.. that is true, but it also made Yzerman HAVE to sacrifice defensive hockey for offence.... he took tons of chances... he forced plays... that is not necessarily bad because who else was going to score on the Wings? But it also really when balanced against a later Yzerman that played both ways does not make it seem like some kind of great season.

I'd take AO's season either of the last 2 years over Yzerman's 88/89 too.
I do not have time to fully answer this thread at this point. Too late at night.

I will say this. A Long awaited welcome back Cup 2010 Sens Rule. I wondered a year ago why we stopped hearing from you, and I am ecstatic that you are back with us.

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08-25-2009, 02:54 AM
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Are you including goaltenders? Because Hasek has had multiple seasons that were better.
I think he is excluding everyone not playing for the Red Wings and beeing named Yzerman...



Seriously though, this is getting ridiculos. But its always like this, Yzerman was a tremendous player, a extremely humble and great person, but its always tough to argue that he was better then many of the other icons that have played in the NHL during its 90 YEARS.

I mean I love Mats Sundin, but that doesn't mean that I can't accept that like Sakic have had a better career then Mats.

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08-25-2009, 07:49 AM
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I think he is excluding everyone not playing for the Red Wings and beeing named Yzerman...



Seriously though, this is getting ridiculos. But its always like this, Yzerman was a tremendous player, a extremely humble and great person, but its always tough to argue that he was better then many of the other icons that have played in the NHL during its 90 YEARS.

I mean I love Mats Sundin, but that doesn't mean that I can't accept that like Sakic have had a better career then Mats.
And your hyperbole is getting ridiculous. Stating his '89 season is one of the best ever or trying to compare Yzerman to Messier is akin to Sundin and Sakic? Really?

The Hockey News' top seasons posted above lends credence to the suggestion that Yzerman's '89 season gets overlooked. Not even in the top 40?

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08-25-2009, 08:14 AM
  #17
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That point (boldfaced) about Clarke is astounding. Never knew that.
Maybe I exageratted.. maybe not.. it is from memory of other posters here that had the real stats... it seems in Clarke's mid 70's Hart years he (facing the best lines of other teams 20+ mins a game and scoring 90-100 points or more) allowed like one year less than 20 ESP against and the other year like 30 some) And we are talking on a top team playing against the best he shut down Lafleur and Espo and Perrault and everyone, while outscoring them big time.

The stats have been around in many other threads... I am surprised you missed them before Trottier... I am not the one to reproduce them since I am not even been trying to find them on these boards.

However they are the most astounding stats I think I have ever scene in regards to NHL player stats... there was definately a reason Clarke won those Harts over Orr... he likely deserved them.

I hope someone can post the actual numbers... I know you are not much for stats Trottier but these ones are proving a point... Clarke was an absolute demon on defence while also being a great playmaker and leader and winner.

I didn't watch mid 70's hockey.. maybe you did.. and others... but looking at the stats has to magnify Clarke's utter dominance for a couple of years... the numbers are beyond even belief but reitierated by several posters several times....

Clarke utterly shut down offence while also being one of the better offensive players of the time. It is like combining Pahlson and Thorton at their best throwing in alot of meanness and leadership... it is to me the most astounding stat I have ever seen in the NHL over 215 points 163 assists.. over anything else that can be put into numbers.... these couple of years of Clarke's impress me the most.

Anyway hopefully someone has the stats or the link to some posts with those stats...

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Old
08-25-2009, 08:33 AM
  #18
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Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
That point (boldfaced) about Clarke is astounding. Never knew that.
Maybe I exageratted.. maybe not.. it is from memory of other posters here that had the real stats... it seems in Clarke's mid 70's Hart years he (facing the best lines of other teams 20+ mins a game and scoring 90-100 points or more) allowed like one year less than 20 ESP against and the other year like 30 some) And we are talking on a top team playing against the best he shut down Lafleur and Espo and Perrault and everyone, while outscoring them big time.
It's funny that Trottier posted in the thread but don't remember it

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=621645

http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=18631150&postcount=2

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08-25-2009, 08:43 AM
  #19
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It's funny that Trottier posted in the thread but don't remember it

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=621645

http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=18631150&postcount=2
Well Trottier.. I was righter than I had imagned... in haste I wrote that post and then thought I must have exageratted.. but no.. The stats:

1975 ESGA 19 ESGF 98
1976 ESGA 22 ESGF 105

Those two numbers... of all the stats ever to me speak to greatness... and utter complete dominance.. I wish I had seen Clarke then.. I saw Gretzky and Mario... I never saw Orr.. which ight have been the same or better kind of dominance.. but that Clarke dominance is unexpected... and freakish.

Maybe it is not the great three dominance... but talking about 2-way forwards like Yzerman, Fedorov, Sakic, well anyone... those numbers tell of a Bob Gainey with the scoring touch of a Lafleur.. it is insane. I am sure Clarke must have played against the best on every team he played and to dominate like that just speaks to why Bobby Clarke is a true all time great.

Stats often don't mean much.. to me.. not having seen those seasons and those players.. it tells me something that is magnificient.

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08-25-2009, 08:46 AM
  #20
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Originally Posted by RabbinsDuck View Post
And your hyperbole is getting ridiculous. Stating his '89 season is one of the best ever or trying to compare Yzerman to Messier is akin to Sundin and Sakic? Really?

The Hockey News' top seasons posted above lends credence to the suggestion that Yzerman's '89 season gets overlooked. Not even in the top 40?
Look, you have to realize that you have zero perspective.

First of all, the title is -- if I get it right -- that Yzerman had the best season for a player not wearing 99/66/04.

The NHL is a almost 90 year old league -- to say that only 4 players have had better years then a player who one year was 3rd overall in goals, 3rd overall in assists and 3rd overall in pts; while loosing in the 1st round in the PO's; while not beeing named MVP or anything like it (Conn Smyth) -- is not really realistic.

The claim is only based on the fact that Yzerman scored 155pts. You also seem to forget that almost 25-33% more goals were scored in the NHL at that time compared to today for exampel. So its hardly like he had a extremely unique year either in terms of pts.

Again, you are comming across like people aren't respecting Yzerman and what not -- but without anydoubt, there is more then 4 guys in this league who have had better seasons then him, its probably more like 100 guys who have had better seasons then his 88/89 season. The PO's got to count pretty heavily in that aspect. In some cases like up to 50% -- and Y got sent out in the first round.

Seriously, this have nothing to do with people not respecting Yzerman -- its more about you guys comming across as having zero perspective. Almost 90 year old this league is.

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08-25-2009, 08:54 AM
  #21
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Look, you have to realize that you have zero perspective.

First of all, the title is -- if I get it right -- that Yzerman had the best season for a player not wearing 99/66/04.

The NHL is a almost 90 year old league -- to say that only 4 players have had better years then a player who one year was 3rd overall in goals, 3rd overall in assists and 3rd overall in pts; while loosing in the 1st round in the PO's; while not beeing named MVP or anything like it (Conn Smyth) -- is not really realistic.

The claim is only based on the fact that Yzerman scored 155pts. You also seem to forget that almost 25-33% more goals were scored in the NHL at that time compared to today for exampel. So its hardly like he had a extremely unique year either in terms of pts.

Again, you are comming across like people aren't respecting Yzerman and what not -- but without anydoubt, there is more then 4 guys in this league who have had better seasons then him, its probably more like 100 guys who have had better seasons then his 88/89 season. The PO's got to count pretty heavily in that aspect. In some cases like up to 50% -- and Y got sent out in the first round.

Seriously, this have nothing to do with people not respecting Yzerman -- its more about you guys comming across as having zero perspective. Almost 90 year old this league is.
I agree. I LOVE Yzerman... he is one of my all-time favorite players... and I actually watched his whole career first hand... I am not sure it was even HIS best season if you include the playoffs. Sadly or not... my best memory... of Yzerman's true greatness as as an injured guy that could not stand up on his own that LED his team to the cup in the playoffs... The one legged Yzerman is THE YZERMAN that should be remembered as great.... a bit past his prime... horribly injured he played phenomenal....

Watching Yzerman's career.. that 155 pt season does not stand out that much... like I said earlier.. he had a previous season of great goal scoring and points shortened by injuries and another 2 or 3 seasons not far removed from the appex of the 155 pt season. To me the 155 point is not an aberration or a sign of true greatness but the apex of a5 year Yzerman offensive peak that at the end of it he became a 2 way force and was still an equally good player. It was just another reall good offensive season not an all time great... WOW season.

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08-25-2009, 09:15 AM
  #22
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In 2000 the Hockey News polled 20 "experts" and asked them to vote on the greatest individual season's in NHL history.

The Top 40

1 - Orr 1969/70
2 - Gretzky 1981/82
3 - Gretzky 1985/86
4 - M. Richard 1944/45
5 - Orr 1974/75
6 - Gretzky 1983/84
7 - Lemieux 1988/89
8 - P. Esposito 1970/71
9 - Lemieux 1992/93
10 - Coffey 1985/86
11 - Orr 1970/71
12 - Hainsworth 1928/29
13 - Orr 1971/72
14 - Gretzky 1979/80
15 - Malone 1917/18
16 - Bossy 1980/81
17 - Mikita 1966/67
18 - Gretzky 1984/85
19 - Howe 1952/53
20 - P. Esposito 1968/69
21 - Sawchuk 1950/51
22 - Bo. Hull 1965/66
23 - T. Esposito 1969/70
24 - Hasek 1997/98
25 - Parent 1973/74
26 - Br. Hull 1990/91
27 - Howe 1968/69
28 - Selanne 1992/93
29 - Howe 1950/51
30 - Bourque 1979/80
31 - Bossy 1977/78
32 - Gretzky 1982/83
33 - Shore 1932/33
34 - Lemieux 1987/88
35 - Gretzky 1986/87
36 - Orr 1973/74
37 - Gretzky 1980/81
38 - Cowley 1943/44
39 - Hasek 1993/94
40 - Barrasso 1983/84

Voters - Colin Campbell, Ron Caron, Ed Chynoweth, John Davidson, Steve Dryden, Eric Duhatschek, James Duplacey, Helene Elliott, Emile Francis, Bob Goodenow, Bill Hay, Dick Irvin Jr, Bob McKenzie, Peter McNab, Al Morganti, Harry Neale, Dick Patrick, Jim Proudfoot, Frank Selke Jr, Frank Udvari.
Wow, thanks for posting this, I've never seen this article before. Many of these seasons I admittedly have not seen, so it's hard for me to judge exactly how Richard's season stacks up against Shore's or many of Howe's. I was expecting to see some of the seasons above compete with Yzerman's like Espisito, Coffey and Bossy's. However, I can tell you Yzerman's 88-89 was far better than some of the guys on here for sure, like Barasso's, Hull's and Salanee's.

If you forget the playoffs and just look at the regular season, at least post-expansion, I can't see 88-89 not being ranked at least top 10, and probably top 5. Is being on a winning franchise worth this much when ranking individual greatness?

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08-25-2009, 09:19 AM
  #23
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Wow, thanks for posting this, I've never seen this article before. Many of these seasons I admittedly have not seen, so it's hard for me to judge exactly how Richard's season stacks up against Shore's or many of Howe's. I was expecting to see some of the seasons above compete with Yzerman's like Espisito, Coffey and Bossy's. However, I can tell you Yzerman's 88-89 was far better than some of the guys on here for sure, like Barasso's, Hull's and Salanee's.

If you forget the playoffs and just look at the regular season, at least post-expansion, I can't see 88-89 not being ranked at least top 10, and probably top 5. Is being on a winning franchise worth this much when ranking individual greatness?
How can.. on this list Yzerman's year beat 10 of Gretzky's... 5 of Mario's and 5 of Orr's? Top 10 and not even creatively taking out the 99,66 and 04 seasons?


I like I said LOVE Yzerman but that season at best is top 30 if including all the real best seasons. Maybe not even top 50

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08-25-2009, 09:21 AM
  #24
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Originally Posted by Cup 2010 Sens Rule View Post
How can.. on this list Yzerman's year beat 10 of Gretzky's... 5 of Mario's and 5 of Orr's? Top 10 and not even creatively taking out the 99,66 and 04 seasons?


I like I said LOVE Yzerman but that season at best is top 30 if including all the real best seasons. Maybe not even top 50
I meant without including those three. With those 3, Yzerman's season doesn't look very special, hence him coming 3rd in scoring that very year.

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08-25-2009, 09:27 AM
  #25
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Look, you have to realize that you have zero perspective.

First of all, the title is -- if I get it right -- that Yzerman had the best season for a player not wearing 99/66/04.

The NHL is a almost 90 year old league -- to say that only 4 players have had better years then a player who one year was 3rd overall in goals, 3rd overall in assists and 3rd overall in pts; while loosing in the 1st round in the PO's; while not beeing named MVP or anything like it (Conn Smyth) -- is not really realistic.

The claim is only based on the fact that Yzerman scored 155pts. You also seem to forget that almost 25-33% more goals were scored in the NHL at that time compared to today for exampel. So its hardly like he had a extremely unique year either in terms of pts.

Again, you are comming across like people aren't respecting Yzerman and what not -- but without anydoubt, there is more then 4 guys in this league who have had better seasons then him, its probably more like 100 guys who have had better seasons then his 88/89 season. The PO's got to count pretty heavily in that aspect. In some cases like up to 50% -- and Y got sent out in the first round.

Seriously, this have nothing to do with people not respecting Yzerman -- its more about you guys comming across as having zero perspective. Almost 90 year old this league is.
100 players have had better seasons? Really? And I am coming across like people aren't "respecting Yzerman"? I am not out to garner respect to Yzerman, just to discuss his accomplishments in context, because... duh, I am interested in it.

The OP asked a question, and did not pose a statement.

And we are discussing regular season here, obviously.

Off-topic --- I find there is a huge gap between Clarke and Messier, yet they are ranked right next to each other in the recent voting. I essentially see Messier as Clarke, minus the elite defense... which is no small potatatoes.

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