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I think I found the problem...

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04-03-2004, 04:41 PM
  #1
TehDoak
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I think I found the problem...

I know, its unfair to blame one player. But, if you had to pick one player who by himself blew the most points (vs the ones he earned the team), I really don't think you can look any further than Biron. Sure, he played great down the stretch. But if he had played decent in October or November, Buffalo would be a playoff team right now. I think Biron has reached his upside and its time to move him. He's a 2nd tier starter who maybe one year (in his 30s) will have a great playoff run and possibly Veniza consideration. Noronen still has some potential left and should be named the starter next season with R. Miller has the backup. If nothing else:

3 years with Biron as starter
3 years no playoffs.

Since the coach and the GM will still be here, someone has gotta go.

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04-03-2004, 05:03 PM
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Some more wonderul stats:

In his 29 starts, the Sabres scored 59 goals total while he was in net . Meaning, he received, on average 2.03 goals for.

By contrast, Biron received, in his 49 starts, 156 goals for. Thats 3.18 goals per game. More than a goal a game difference. A BIG difference.

And of course, finally, Miller, in his 3 apperances, received 2 goals from Buffalo. A mind boggling .66 GF average.

So, what does this mean? That Biron was the starter alot more often when the team decided to show up, espically late in the season. In the last 30 games, Noronen got a grand total of 6 starts. The team in front of him only showed up for 3 of those games. Noronen is as good or better than Biron. he just hasn't had the chance to play behind a sabres team that shows up on a consistent basis, while Biron has. Miller is also an unknown here.

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04-03-2004, 07:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdoak
Some more wonderul stats:

In his 29 starts, the Sabres scored 59 goals total while he was in net . Meaning, he received, on average 2.03 goals for.

By contrast, Biron received, in his 49 starts, 156 goals for. Thats 3.18 goals per game. More than a goal a game difference. A BIG difference.

And of course, finally, Miller, in his 3 apperances, received 2 goals from Buffalo. A mind boggling .66 GF average.

So, what does this mean? That Biron was the starter alot more often when the team decided to show up, espically late in the season. In the last 30 games, Noronen got a grand total of 6 starts. The team in front of him only showed up for 3 of those games. Noronen is as good or better than Biron. he just hasn't had the chance to play behind a sabres team that shows up on a consistent basis, while Biron has. Miller is also an unknown here.
Biron was inconsistent at the beginning of the season, Noronen was inconsistent in the middle of the season. Biron has a winning record, Noronen does not. Biron was the man down the stretch, Noronen could barely get a game in because he couldn't be counted on. You trade Noronen, you better have more defensive help lined up, or we will miss the playoffs for a fourth straight year...

Three years with Biron as a starter, no playoffs? Get real. One year we had holy the goalie with a SV% of ~.860. Biron was played whether he was having a good game or not because there was no other option. Next year, we had Noronen as the backup, and a similar results - Biron was played because Noronen sucked. This year, we had Biron and Noronen again. Similar results, Biron is carrying the team down the stretch and Noronen is sitting on the bench. Why? Because Noronen is more inconsistent that Biron.

There were a lot more problems with this team than the goaltending. Little scoring, no heart, no team toughness, and poor defence immediately come to mind...

If it wasn't the last game of the season, I'd say what your seeing from Noronen is what you'ld see from him next season (3-1 Montreal...)

Edit: 4 - 1....

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04-03-2004, 07:55 PM
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I thought you said before that the Sabres biggest problem was their lack of veteran forwards?

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04-03-2004, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffaloed
I thought you said before that the Sabres biggest problem was their lack of veteran forwards?
Buffalo lacked leadership.....but it has developed with Drury, Briere, and Dumont. I still think Buffalo needs 1-2 guys on the third/forth line to be a stabling influence.

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04-03-2004, 08:16 PM
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I think I found your problem: Drury is your captain. He just suckered Bubbles after the refs had stepped in to stop him from getting embarrassed. real classy. Who needs this crap in the game? And this after he delivers a brutal 2-hand to the knee? know it's gonna get ugly

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04-03-2004, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djhn579
Biron was inconsistent at the beginning of the season, Noronen was inconsistent in the middle of the season. Biron has a winning record, Noronen does not. Biron was the man down the stretch, Noronen could barely get a game in because he couldn't be counted on. You trade Noronen, you better have more defensive help lined up, or we will miss the playoffs for a fourth straight year...

Three years with Biron as a starter, no playoffs? Get real. One year we had holy the goalie with a SV% of ~.860. Biron was played whether he was having a good game or not because there was no other option. Next year, we had Noronen as the backup, and a similar results - Biron was played because Noronen sucked. This year, we had Biron and Noronen again. Similar results, Biron is carrying the team down the stretch and Noronen is sitting on the bench. Why? Because Noronen is more inconsistent that Biron.

There were a lot more problems with this team than the goaltending. Little scoring, no heart, no team toughness, and poor defence immediately come to mind...

If it wasn't the last game of the season, I'd say what your seeing from Noronen is what you'ld see from him next season (3-1 Montreal...)

Edit: 4 - 1....
I think you're a little mistaken. Ruff has NEVER and i mean NEVER given Noronen a fair shot at the starting role. The times he has started this year, he has been hung out to dry. NO goalie can win with that kind of goal support he was given. None. Goalies who have a 1.90 or 1.8 GAA average ALWAYS play on good teams who jump out to leads early and hold on, with the exception of maybe Hasek. Biron has a winning record because Ruff kept starting him until the team turned it around, and once they did, they praised Biron for the great job he did, when, in actuallity, any NHL level goalie could win behind how well the team was playing. Take for example, the three game string in January, with wins over Toronto, the blowout over the Thrashers, than a dual between Luongo and Noronen for a 1-1 tie. Then, he starts Biron the next game versus Tampa, something Noronen had clearly earned, IMHO. Biron has had ample chances to prove he will be something more than a 2nd tier starter, and he hasn't. Give Noronen and Miller a fair shot at it, and if it doesn't work, you can go pick up a veteran goalie somewhat cheap. I think a perfect comparison would be Kiprusoff in Calgary. He was stuck behind Nabakov in San Jose, and when he was given a chance with the Nabakov hold out, he stumbled. But, he just led the flames into the playoffs.

Biron lets in WAY too many soft goal, and his soft goals ALWAYS come at the exact wrong times. When Biron is on, he is a great goalie, but he only comes on half a season, and its always too little too late. Whenever Noronen has started to play well, Biron's game starts to come apart. Ruff realizes this, and shows confidence in Biron because he realizes Biron is only a good goalie when he's confident. Sorry kids, its time to part with Biron. He's a great guy and a decent goalie. But Noronen and Miller should split time next year.

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04-03-2004, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicpea
I think I found your problem: Drury is your captain. He just suckered Bubbles after the refs had stepped in to stop him from getting embarrassed. real classy. Who needs this crap in the game? And this after he delivers a brutal 2-hand to the knee? know it's gonna get ugly
I'd rather drury sucker players on other teams rather than have my captain sucker punch players on the Sabres, i mean, who has a captain who gets into fist fights with players on their own team....oh wait.....

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04-03-2004, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdoak
I think you're a little mistaken. Ruff has NEVER and i mean NEVER given Noronen a fair shot at the starting role. The times he has started this year, he has been hung out to dry. NO goalie can win with that kind of goal support he was given. None. Goalies who have a 1.90 or 1.8 GAA average ALWAYS play on good teams who jump out to leads early and hold on, with the exception of maybe Hasek. Biron has a winning record because Ruff kept starting him until the team turned it around, and once they did, they praised Biron for the great job he did, when, in actuallity, any NHL level goalie could win behind how well the team was playing. Take for example, the three game string in January, with wins over Toronto, the blowout over the Thrashers, than a dual between Luongo and Noronen for a 1-1 tie. Then, he starts Biron the next game versus Tampa, something Noronen had clearly earned, IMHO. Biron has had ample chances to prove he will be something more than a 2nd tier starter, and he hasn't. Give Noronen and Miller a fair shot at it, and if it doesn't work, you can go pick up a veteran goalie somewhat cheap. I think a perfect comparison would be Kiprusoff in Calgary. He was stuck behind Nabakov in San Jose, and when he was given a chance with the Nabakov hold out, he stumbled. But, he just led the flames into the playoffs.

Biron lets in WAY too many soft goal, and his soft goals ALWAYS come at the exact wrong times. When Biron is on, he is a great goalie, but he only comes on half a season, and its always too little too late. Whenever Noronen has started to play well, Biron's game starts to come apart. Ruff realizes this, and shows confidence in Biron because he realizes Biron is only a good goalie when he's confident. Sorry kids, its time to part with Biron. He's a great guy and a decent goalie. But Noronen and Miller should split time next year.
I think you are a little mistaken. Noronen had 34 (11-16-2) games this season and 16 games last season (4-9-3). If he had shown any ability to take over the #1 goalie position, he would have had it. Instead, he did worse.

Soft goals? I didn't see a lot of that this season. Losing games in the last 5 minutes? If you can blame the goaltender when a guy is standing alone in front of him with a couple shots, or the defence can't clear the puck.

Noronen played in 21 of the first 42 games, yet you give Biron all the blame for the team not doing well in the first half? Please, try to be a little bit more objective...

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04-03-2004, 09:10 PM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdoak
I'd rather drury sucker players on other teams rather than have my captain sucker punch players on the Sabres, i mean, who has a captain who gets into fist fights with players on their own team....oh wait.....
hehe. well, Ribeiro deserved it. And, if you recall, following that little 'skirmish,' the Habs went on a 16 game tear. In fact, one could arguably state that it was because of Koivu's punch that we are now in the playoffs

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04-04-2004, 09:23 AM
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Biron has had his chance in Buffalo. Now management needs to go in a different direction. I can't see how they don't see this. If he starts next year, I will not be a sabres fan. Furthermore, I don't see Norenen prospering in Buffalo. Not to say he can't be a good goalie, but they have mishandled him and he's set up for failure here.

Maybe they can pick up a guy like Potvin who's proven he can still play wit a one year deal in Boston. I don't see them needing to spend a lot at this position to get some value.

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04-04-2004, 09:45 AM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jj@jj.com
Biron has had his chance in Buffalo. Now management needs to go in a different direction. I can't see how they don't see this. If he starts next year, I will not be a sabres fan. Furthermore, I don't see Norenen prospering in Buffalo. Not to say he can't be a good goalie, but they have mishandled him and he's set up for failure here.

Maybe they can pick up a guy like Potvin who's proven he can still play wit a one year deal in Boston. I don't see them needing to spend a lot at this position to get some value.
Now there's a great answer, throw more money at the problem... it worked for the Rangers, didn't it? We need to develop a goaltender. Biron for all his faults isn't quite as bad as you make him out to be. We've all heard on this board how our defence has sucked. Let's try to get at least an average defence in front of any of our goaltenders next season. Then you can say they can or can't do the job. I know that's not going to happen since all three are RFA's this summer, but the fact is Biron was the go to guy down the stretch, and Noronen was on the bench...

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04-04-2004, 09:51 AM
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I think Mika is done IMO.Use him as bait to move up a spot or two or trade him for a high 2nd round pick.This year we have to trade a goalie.More AHL for Miller will be redundant.I wouldn't even mind picking up a true #1 goalie.Maybe CuJo gets released and we can sign him to a reasonable deal.....(2 years,4 million per?)

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04-04-2004, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djhn579
Now there's a great answer, throw more money at the problem... it worked for the Rangers, didn't it? We need to develop a goaltender. Biron for all his faults isn't quite as bad as you make him out to be. We've all heard on this board how our defence has sucked. Let's try to get at least an average defence in front of any of our goaltenders next season. Then you can say they can or can't do the job. I know that's not going to happen since all three are RFA's this summer, but the fact is Biron was the go to guy down the stretch, and Noronen was on the bench...
How is signing Potvin and getting rid of Biron throwing more money at the situation? Last I checked Potvin made a cool million this year while Biron made over two. We need a solution now and Miller is not ready. And bad goals lost more games than the d.

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04-04-2004, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jj@jj.com
How is signing Potvin and getting rid of Biron throwing more money at the situation? Last I checked Potvin made a cool million this year while Biron made over two. We need a solution now and Miller is not ready. And bad goals lost more games than the d.
Sorry, I didn't look at the salary, but now that I look at the stats, it makes even less sense, even if he does cost less. Last I checked, Boston is doing better than us, and Potvin has worse stats than Biron. What makes you think he will do better here?

I saw a lot of bad goals over the course of this season. Just about every goalie had some. But in the games I watched, (at least 60 Sabres games) I saw a lot of forwards not coming back to help, opposing players left alone in good scoring position, pucks sitting in front of the net that our players couldn't seem to clear. These are defensive short comings and they acounted for more goals than poor goaltending.

It's easy to blame the goaltender. I can't wait to hear how bad whoever we have in goal next year will be. If it's not Biron, I'll enjoy seeing him do well on another team.

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04-04-2004, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jj@jj.com
How is signing Potvin and getting rid of Biron throwing more money at the situation? Last I checked Potvin made a cool million this year while Biron made over two. We need a solution now and Miller is not ready. And bad goals lost more games than the d.
How in the world do you know Miller won't be ready next season? He OUTPLAYED all of Buffalo goalies in camp, only to get stuck behind a shell of the team that we have now for 3 games and get hung out to dry every time. Miller has had his confidence which made him so great in College absolutly destroyed. Let camp decide who the starter is. Though, I still think Miller should be gone. Potvin is an interesting option, and there are alot of UFA goalies floating around, and I am willing to bet if Buffalo went with Noronen/Miller as the tandem and it didn't work out, Buffalo would be able to sign one cheap.

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04-05-2004, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdoak
Some more wonderul stats:

In his 29 starts, the Sabres scored 59 goals total while he was in net . Meaning, he received, on average 2.03 goals for.

By contrast, Biron received, in his 49 starts, 156 goals for. Thats 3.18 goals per game. More than a goal a game difference. A BIG difference.

And of course, finally, Miller, in his 3 apperances, received 2 goals from Buffalo. A mind boggling .66 GF average.

So, what does this mean? That Biron was the starter alot more often when the team decided to show up, espically late in the season. In the last 30 games, Noronen got a grand total of 6 starts. The team in front of him only showed up for 3 of those games. Noronen is as good or better than Biron. he just hasn't had the chance to play behind a sabres team that shows up on a consistent basis, while Biron has. Miller is also an unknown here.
You can't always judge it by goals per start. For example, the Toronto game. Biron gives up 3 goals to make it 0-3. He gets pulled, and Noronen is the recipient of all six goals we score. That being said, it doesn't change your point: Biron received much more goal support than Noronen did. That does explain the difference in wins, IMO.

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04-05-2004, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djhn579
Noronen played in 21 of the first 42 games, yet you give Biron all the blame for the team not doing well in the first half? Please, try to be a little bit more objective...
Noronen played very well in his first 21 games:
October 3 3 139 2 1 0 6 2.59 49 43 .878 0 1
November 9 7 405 3 3 0 12 1.78 182 170 .934 0 1
December 9 9 540 3 5 1 19 2.11 256 237 .926 0 0

Biron didn't:
October 7 6 396 4 2 0 16 2.42 190 174 .916 1 0
November 8 7 445 2 4 2 22 2.97 202 180 .891 0 0
December 3 3 178 1 2 0 9 3.03 73 64 .877 0 0

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04-05-2004, 08:55 AM
  #19
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Originally Posted by djhn579
Sorry, I didn't look at the salary, but now that I look at the stats, it makes even less sense, even if he does cost less. Last I checked, Boston is doing better than us, and Potvin has worse stats than Biron. What makes you think he will do better here?

I saw a lot of bad goals over the course of this season. Just about every goalie had some. But in the games I watched, (at least 60 Sabres games) I saw a lot of forwards not coming back to help, opposing players left alone in good scoring position, pucks sitting in front of the net that our players couldn't seem to clear. These are defensive short comings and they acounted for more goals than poor goaltending.

It's easy to blame the goaltender. I can't wait to hear how bad whoever we have in goal next year will be. If it's not Biron, I'll enjoy seeing him do well on another team.
http://www.sportsline.com/nhl/stats/...IE?&_1:col_1=8

Nobody made the playoffs with worse team goaltending than the Sabres got.

Every team has defensive lapses that cause goals to be scored. Note that Florida's goaltending was third overall. Note that they gave up more shots than any team. It didn't prevent their goaltenders from playing well.

Defensive shortcomings in the first half didn't prevent Noronen from playing well, and defensive shortcomings in the second half didn't prevent Biron from playing well.

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04-05-2004, 08:59 AM
  #20
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Originally Posted by DanielBriere48
I think Mika is done IMO.Use him as bait to move up a spot or two or trade him for a high 2nd round pick.This year we have to trade a goalie.More AHL for Miller will be redundant.I wouldn't even mind picking up a true #1 goalie.Maybe CuJo gets released and we can sign him to a reasonable deal.....(2 years,4 million per?)
Cujo? Biron (.913) is better than Cujo (.909). He's only a #1 goalie on reputation, and reputation doesn't win hockey games.

Trading unproven goalies with high potential for second rounders worked really well for Calgary and San Jose. Well, it worked for Calgary, the second time.

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